Group Riding Speed and more - Proposed Pacing Guide by Mr. Gadget

[pkpk]

It was a posted ride.  Yes, they didn't have too many but this was a "kickstands up by..." and had a pre-made route, not unlike the organized rides posted here.

To be fair, I showed up a little late so I probably missed the pre-ride where they advertised the *30+ over, make sure you keep up with the guy ahead of you*.

I knew what I was getting into.  I didn't care, I had the route in my GPS and enjoyed it.  I still laugh about it because they were all strung together.  Wonder if they rode that way all day.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Really, though... There are no official MNSBR group rides.  Just people that meet up and ride.
And just so that all are aware, ............

yes there are, I have done a few, as have a few other members.

But does it really matter.......the main difference between and official mn-msta ride and any other ride posted on here is the support of "leaders" that comes with an official ride...IMO

When I have done "official" rides, I know I can count on atleast a couple other members showing up prepared to lead and help, all of the rides that I just post up or do via pm or email etc that are not "official" I know I am completely on my own and expect that I will be "leading" and in charge of pretty much everything...lunch, gas, crashes, idiotic behavior patrol, repair and maintenance of those bikes in need, how fast we go and when , passing, who I allow to come along, you name it I am in control of it.........Even if it shouldn't be this way it always is.

This is just one generalized example--- (based on riding with hundreds of different riders each year, not all of whom are on this forum or even on my "like to ride with" list;
When I have to base my passing of vehicles on;
 the skills and brain power of those following me, you know it isn't a "ride your own ride" happening. When I look in the mirror and see;
 people strung out for miles and slow down or stop and wait to gather them all back together....that again is not "ride your own ride"
 Likewise when the group is all ass packing each other and I speed up....I could give far too many examples----------and I am not saying this to out anyone, rather for some to wake up and take control of their own riding and actually "ride thier own ride"........too bad most of them won't listen or read this

[RCKT GRL]

I'm listening and reading Lloyd.... just listening and reading.   

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Geez, I guess since this is MN-MSTA I figured you were talking about us.

I couldn't give a shit less about mnsbr official rides or not, or any of those other forums.

So I guess I better read better, I saw XXXXX and thought you were saying mn-msta. sorry for the misinterpretation

[pkpk]

Vander - I was simply relaying an experience as a point of humor.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Stop taking things as always having a deeper meaning.

[Aprilian]

Route sheets are, IMHO, dangerous as they take your focus off the road.   

Following faster riders with a fear of getting lost IMHO is far worse. With a route sheet, you can at least pull over and study it.  My (limited) route sheets usually have a phone number in case someone gets separated.
This thread confirms what I prefer, solo ride up to 4 similarly-minded riders.   Reread the posts to see that everyone's suggestions are how to reduce stress, risk, etc.
I have read how much stress Lloyd experiences (and shares  ) trying to heard a group safely through a ride, I'm out to ride to recharge my batteries.    Part of that may be that I am more an introvert, than extrovert.

I do want to join you all again for rides, but am often not interested in how large the rides end up.

[Mr. Gadget]

Wow - That was fun - I love all the rabbit trail treads we forum folks weave

Okay, Well I started this post so I guess after two days of good banter and main different thoughts I have decided the words "System" is too rule like and structured.  So, the new term I will go with is a simple "GUIDE".

My main objective was to help new riders understand pacing of the different people who lead rides with a without a route sheet.

If a newer rider to the group / MN-MSTA wanted to try out a group ride and they didn't have a GPS
and were new with looking at route sheets that they could follow a leader at a pace that they won't feel over their head causing safety concerns when they try to keep up and don't want to feel they might get lost or left behind.

If the are an experienced group rider then this guideline stuff doesn't matter because you already know who they like to ride with and can read a route sheet or take over as a leader at anytime, which is all good and fine.

I just thought instead of listing all the parameters when posting a ride that you intend to lead, you could put what pace you wanted to ride as an individual leader.  If multiple groups were taking off after a pre-ride meeting each volunteer leader could say what pace they were going to ride the route at and then people could better decide if they want to stay in a group pace riding situation and know what to expect.

By all means the leader could change their pace at every fuel stop or after a lunch causing people who care that much to choose to stay in that group move to another or decide to take their route sheet and go at their own pace.

Obviously, I never dreamed this would be a leaders or the MN-MSTA liability to make a pacing statement at the start of a run and if that is a concern then don't use it.

Let's just ride, have fun and be safe.

[Vander]

Vander - I was simply relaying an experience as a point of humor.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Stop taking things as always having a deeper meaning.

Oh I'm sorry, man... your humor was received.
My reply does read a bit harsh (unintentionally).  I guess I just find myself defending MNSBR often, and that's kind of my canned rebuttal.

Apologies.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Route sheets are, IMHO, dangerous as they take your focus off the road.   

Following faster riders with a fear of getting lost IMHO is far worse. With a route sheet, you can at least pull over and study it.  My (limited) route sheets usually have a phone number in case someone gets separated.
This thread confirms what I prefer, solo ride up to 4 similarly-minded riders.   Reread the posts to see that everyone's suggestions are how to reduce stress, risk, etc.
I have read how much stress Lloyd experiences (and shares  ) trying to heard a group safely through a ride, I'm out to ride to recharge my batteries.    Part of that may be that I am more an introvert, than extrovert.

I do want to join you all again for rides, but am often not interested in how large the rides end up.

Well my last 4 rides I have done have been, 2 riders, 3 riders, 2 riders and 2 riders....I guess you wouldn't have to worry about the size of the "herd" being too large...

And I 100% agree it is far more dangerous to follow a group or idividual riding way faster than you are capable of or feel capable of than it is to glance at a route sheet or pull over and look at it.


edit***Lastly these past 4 rides with MN-msta members have not been stressful at all. But the weekday ride I went on last week with some customers( that happen to be mnsbr/zg/ta  ) well thats another story.

[Tim...]

Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out. 

What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet.  Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions.  Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.

Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace?  I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups. 

[pkpk]

The route sheet serves as a way to not get totally lost.  It's a backup for times when you do become separated from the group or if you are not happy with the pace.

I can lead a group but I cannot make certain that group follows me at my exact pace through the entire route.  Stuff happens along the way on a 300 miler.  One of my late season rides (Die Hard Ride) would take us through Elk River and each of the three years I led a group, I lost people at Elk River through no fault of my own due to stop lights and congestion.  The route sheet serves as a backup for those who get separated.   "Ride your own ride" is not literally you are on your own, you can still chose to ride with a person leading the group.  But it's a valuable backup in case you are separated or you decide the pace isn't to your style.

[aschendel]

You guys should see the stuff the ADV riders go though to get a group through the woods   Leap-frog, Accordian, some sort of new round-robin 1/x strategy...

I sympathize with Tim and have alluded to some of what he says in my previous posts, but wholeheartedly agree with pkpk's statement that "'Ride your own ride' is not literally you are on your own, you can still chose to ride with a person leading the group.  But it's a valuable backup in case you are separated or you decide the pace isn't to your style."

Leaders don't love it when people disappear (cuz they're not having fun, whaaa) and then bad-mouth them on the forums, and leaders don't like it when people crash behind them.  Since leaders don't exactly how everyone is going to ride, the route-sheet and a little planning (a lot of planning for many rides) are there to hopefully get people through to the end of the ride safely.  Speaking generally about "followers", once you know the leaders and the roads the route sheet is slightly less important (if you ride the same pace as the leader and are a jerk and never help slower riders out), but I still think that if you haven't been following along the route enough to either go forward or back from where you are, you are doing yourself no favors if you need to call for help, go back for help or bail out early or something like that comes up.

Like I said, I'm with Tim on "what's the point" of running a route by yourself and small talking at the stops, but unless the leader explicitly says they are going to wait for me (everyone) every time, I make sure I have a good route sheet and follow it even when I can see the group.  If a ride doesn't have a route sheet I'd better know the group pretty well.

a.s.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out. 

What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet.  Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions.  Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.

Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace?  I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups. 

Absolutely nobody is disputing the fact that everytime your eyes are off the road for anything, including looking at a route sheet or GPS there is inherent danger involved and you significantly increase your risk of danger danger that time!
 So let me make this comparison, my complex routes would have a person potentially looking down for some 2 seconds each time and having to do so perhaps 70 times on my 450-550 mile routes.....So for 2 minutes and 20 seconds you are riding "blind" or dangerously or wrecklessly or...........Certainly not a good thing, but you do have the option to pull over and study the route sheet. (This assumes you can't remember any of the turns past the next one and don't know the roads at all--completely a noob in riding where we ride)
-Option 2, the same 450-550 mile ride, and you are riding over your head to stay with the group (ie...100+ on the straights, panic braking into the turns in hopes of staying within sight) Well that would seem to me to be about 9-12 hours of riding dangerously or wrecklessly or........Certainly not a good thing (IMO far worse scenario), and you don't even have the option of pulling over to look at a route sheet to meet the group at the stop or anywhere, and some would not even know how to get home from anywhere they may pull over.

Your second paragraph is a bit of an exaggeration, but if that happens atleast you have the route sheet to make your merry way safely at YOUR pace.

Finally your comment about the organizers and setting up a slow, medium and fast paced group----well that takes volunteers, and ones who are willing to "ruin" their day by chapporoning around people unwilling to take responsibility of their own riding and lead themselves. Furthermore you have never showed up and led a group on any ride I have ever been on, and it is the vast majority of them, so who are you fooling with your statement  "I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups."  Certainly not me.

Lets just say a typical ride has 10 people on it, and we try to break it into slow, med, fast.....
 To start you need the most skilled riders to "lead" because clearly the majority won't or are incapable of, or like you feel the routes are too challenging and too complex making them too dangerous. So now you have 3 riders out of 10 that should be and normally would be in the "fast" group having to decide who is going to be the babysitters and not get the chance to ride how they want to...(Gee you wonder why it is so hard to get volunteers to lead)

Well almost nobody wants to be in the "slow" group (ego, stigma or any number of reasons) so you have one of the most skilled riders taking 1 or 2 people on a ride and stopping and waiting and riding "slowly" and warning them of dangers in every turn and really just giving a guided babysitting tour....sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm !)
 Then you only have 7 riders left, but lets 2 want to go "fast" so another leader takes these 2 on a "fast" pace, so this leader is riding how they want presumably as are the 2 followers, but the leader still has to keep them together and make sure he isn't too fast, isn't too slow, stops for fuel often enough, doesn't have to make too many U turns or deviate too far of course.....essentially still totally giving a babysitting tour ride just at a "fast" pace.............sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm !)
So now you have a group of 4 riders bringing up the "medium" paced group, so I could list off all the same shit, it is simply at a little "medium" pace............sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm)

So while all this sounds extremely negative and no fun. The reality of how rides are run is not this way. Typically we always end up waiting for "slow" people, the leaders watch their mirrors and ride according to the pace of the group, the leaders do make provisions for the members in the group (even to their own fun detriment)........so yeah I say again, this sounds like a ton of fun for leaders, (sarcasm) you say you will lead any group anytime, hey show up for a ride and you can ! You would be in the minority of attendees who are capable or willing to lead a group.
 Finally, most of the rides where most of the people attending are of a same or similar skill set or same or similar speed ability or atleast are all capapble of riding at the "pace" we run on the roads we ride and if need be could find their way home or to the next stop via a route sheet or otherwise. Well that is how most of the rides go, because most of the rides have very familiar faces showing up to them.

I understand a "need" for some initiation of "new" riders to the group to see who they fit in with and to get aquainted with how rides are run and at what pace...( Oh wait I did 3 , get to know mn-msta rides last year and 2 this year, where I forced people to lead and navigate and ride at their won pace...slow or med or fast and the group followed them and then someone else led....The feedback I got from those who participated was all good--but it was a huge investment of my time--and tires and fuel---to do this)
-But some sort of rating system, well the shoe just doesn't fit anyone no matter how complex you make it.
I have an idea, show up for a "group" ride prepared to ride by yourself and self navigate and be responsible for yourself, if your pace of the day meshes with someone elses great, if not-you have a route and fantastic roads to ride on. Talk to people at the beginning of the ride (which means showing up atleast 1/2 hour early!) Have your bike prepared to go all day, be mentally and physically prepared to ride all day...You know common sense things you should know and expect. (the couple dozen mn-msta members I ride with regularly have no issues with any of these things, why should anyone else?)

LAstly, lastly---myself and the handful of members who routinely put on rides and "lead" are not here for everyone else to use and take advantage of our route making skills, our abilities to lead, our knowledge of the roads, and our abilitly to keep the "followers" relatively safe. We (or atleast me) are here for the joy of riding and to be able to do it with similarly interested and skilled riders....when the stress level or aggrevation level exceeds the fun level it is no longer appealing, and since so many realy so heavily on us "leaders" you damn sure better keep us around and enjoying it, or you will find yourself without the ability to tag along and "follow". This isn't a threat it is a reality, look how many former leaders never or rarely post up any rides any longer.

[Greg]

Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out. 

What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet.  Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions.  Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.

Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace?  I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups. 

Well almost nobody wants to be in the "slow" group (ego, stigma or any number of reasons) .......

There is absolutely zero stigma in being in the "slower" group. To say as such implies speed equates skill level, which IMO the two are not related.


IMO route sheets are the way to go on official MSTA rides. Ad hoc or nonposted rides are the only exceptions

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out. 

What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet.  Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions.  Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.

Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace?  I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups. 

Well almost nobody wants to be in the "slow" group (ego, stigma or any number of reasons) .......

There is absolutely zero stigma in being in the "slower" group. To say as such implies speed equates skill level, which IMO the two are not related.


IMO route sheets are the way to go on official MSTA rides. Ad hoc or nonposted rides are the only exceptions

I agree that being in a "slow" group should not have any stigma or label placed on it, I am just saying it seems to since so few that should be in "that" group refuse to be in that group.....fear of being labeled, is that any better of an assumption?? ( I know far too many unskilled riders who ride triple digits regularly, I won't even start to name any, but the list surpasses 100 easily)

I also agree with your route sheet statement on official mn-msta rides and an adhoc or personal ride you can do what you want.

In the end, the commonality here is; everyone needs to "ride their own ride" and be self aware of the skills they pocess and the pace they are truly capable of running "safely" and then do that.