Riding Safely

[Yul]

I am encouraging others to hear me out, and I have started a new topic to do so.

My perspective is that of a former rider coach with sincere concerns for rider safety.   I joined in January after discovering this site from colleagues of mine whom were not fond of the typical motorcycle message boards.  I have read posts and topics without commenting until now.  And I guess that is not customary here.

My hope is to engage in thoughtful discourse about riding safety and keeping other riders from harm; not to stroke egos or flex virtual tough guy attitudes behind a keyboard.  From what I have read in previous posts, most on here do not appreciate that electronic mundane bullshit either.  I am in the pursuit of a common truth grounded in civil discourse and based on intelligent thought supported by real evidence. 


To others that had obviously just reacted to Tim and joined in on the feeding frenzy:
I invite you to please re-read my post and offer an intelligent rebuttal (here).  Let's have a good conversation and engage in civil discourse.  Perhaps we call all learn something...  or continue to act as those you claim to disapprove of; on "those forums".

Could it be time to reevaluate the culture of group riding here with the Co-Director crashing more times in one season than many in a lifetime of motorcycling?
I mean no offense.  I am just indicating the alarming statistics of this group and crashes.  And it would not be an issue if the mantra of the this association did not include an emphasis on safe riding. I just recall the front page having a outline of safe riding practices which I thoroughly respected.  Has the absence of that page now communicated a philosophy shift?  Has the focus of balancing of riding safely and fun been eliminated?

I am just curious.  I have not attended a group ride with anyone here, but reading these recent reports and posts about crashes has been rather concerning to me.

[pkpk]

We're always discussing this topic.  Even the most benign topic heading usually has some form of discussion over this topic.  If you feel this isn't the case, you are not digging far enough into the threads.  Personally I would rather you introduce yourself, tell us a little about yourself, tell us about your ride(s), what you like about those ride(s), what you like about riding, etc etc.  The discussions over safety occur on their own for various reasons.  Showing up in the middle of Tony's accident thread to pontificate about riding style is not a positive way of getting to know us or advancing your agenda.

Someone suggested you are simply a troll.  I'm giving you the benefit of doubt.  But you have to introduce yourself, with some background information, or I'll just assume the same.

[Ray916MN]

So what is your comment?

You are a former rider coach and have read everything since January of this year and you have asked the question is it time to reevaluate the culture of group riding here.

Is your comment the question? The build up makes me think the question is a loaded one. One which you've thought about and have an opinion on already.

You've read my response to your question. Before discussing further, I'd like to see a direct comment rather than a question from you. As PKPK commented, I'd also like to get a better feel for what you know and your background aside from being a former rider coach. As you may be aware Tony is a long time and current rider coach, and as you may know there are quite a few rider coaches on this forum, so the perspectives of rider coaches aren't new to the forum. Knowing where you're coming from will help better understand your comments in the context of your background since we've never met or ridden with you.

[Yul]

But you have to introduce yourself, with some background information, or I'll just assume the same.

As I stated before, I am a former rider coach; I think that will suffice.
I am not interested in participating in online pugilism... I thought I made that clear.

[pkpk]

As I stated before, I am a former rider coach; I think that will suffice.
I am not interested in participating in online pugilism... I thought I made that clear.

The body language is everything.  Nothing more to say.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

'user YUL has blocked your message"

hey YUL--I do know how to copy and paste.

"I am dissappointed in your jumping on Tony and on the forum as a whole.

Furthermore, you refuse to actual engage in real discussion, you claim you want intellectual discussion, yet you evade....

So please, go on your thread and join in, if you are here for the betterment of the group. PLease spill your words of wisdom, reveal your truths, show us what you know or at the least share some thoughts and insight."

[Deplorable, thank you!]

YUL's first post on mn-msta

"Could it be time to reevaluate the culture of group riding here with the Co-Director crashing more times in one season than many in a lifetime of motorcycling?
I mean no offense.  I am just indicating the alarming statistics of this group and crashes.  And it would not be an issue if the mantra of the this association did not include an emphasis on safe riding. I just recall the front page having a outline of safe riding practices which I thoroughly respected.  Has the absence of that page now communicated a philosophy shift?  Has the focus of balancing of riding safely and fun been eliminated?

I am just curious.  I have not attended a group ride with anyone here, but reading these recent reports and posts about crashes has been rather concerning to me."



I just can't let this go......especially the very last line
"....reading these recent reports and posts about crashes has been rather concerning to me."
and this line;
"I am just indicating the alarming statistics of this group and crashes"

So you read on the other forums how crashing is a badge of honor and they proudly display and brag about it....So you read on the other forums how dozens of riders on each of them crash weekly, monthly some more than others. You read how 8 of them crashed last weekend?

Look I am on over a dozen forums, I have read it all, heard how they brag, heard others make excuses...You know what I have found on this forum, no one brags, no one makes excuses. Everyone on this forum knows that if they fall down it is their own damn fault. Everyone on this forum takes safety seriously (atleast everyone I would be willing to ride with, as there are faces I do not know and members I would not ride within 100 miles of)

So I ask you, where are all these "recent reports and posts" about crashes? I know of most all that happens and I can count this years crashers and it is less than one of those "other forums" had last weekend.
Are you seriously trying to make the argument that MN-MSTA riders are wreckless or under skilled or somehow not riding in a safe manner?
Or that "we" are somehow more prone to crashing because of how and who we ride with?
Or, that mn-msta members crash more than other local forums?
Come on---where are your facts, what is the basis for your hate on mn-msta?

[aschendel]

I don't really want to assume that Yul isn't a speed-reader, but I happened to click into his/her stats this morning and he'd only been online for 10 minutes since January.  <shrug>

Given that he hasn't ridden on a MN-MSTA group ride I basically don't expect that there is much specific feedback that will be provided even if he does choose to respond (and I sincerely hope he does).  I will say that statistics should support that forum members are safer than average based on the number of miles and the relative difficulty of roads most often chosen.

Since our pants are down, I just did Hwy 7 in the dark twice   It was cold and foggy by the river but didn't see a single deer.  Probably the slowest I've ever gone through there but I was on time for the late movie in RW, and didn't get pulled over by the cop that u-turned behind me coming in on 19 by 6.

a.s.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 38 minutes according to his profile, of course his 3 posts now likely took up much of that.

So what is available without being logged in, took him ?? 15 minutes ?? the rest he could read by trolling......makes a case for having to be logged in to read anything, IMO

[aschendel]

ah, my bad, i thought you had to be logged in to see most of the posts, guess i had that backwards.

a.s.

[beedawg]

I am in the pursuit of a common truth grounded in civil discourse and based on intelligent thought supported by real evidence. 

One common truth is that riding a motorcycle involves risk.  Another truth is that some consequences are less desirable than others.  Still another truth is that protective gear can reduce the undesirable consequences of a crash.  Tony's outcome was one of the less desirable ones, but still, it wasn't as bad as it could have been had he not managed the risk by wearing protective gear.

I'm not sure that there is a "common truth" about motorcycle crashes.  The crashes themselves are varied.  There is the kind where the rider panics and rides off the road, and there are the ones where a skilled rider misjudges the available traction and slides across, and sometimes off, the road.  The causes of these two types of crashes are almost mutually exclusive.

It's hard to tell what you're looking for.  Criticizing the culture of the group in an anonymous post is unlikely to stimulate intelligent conversation.  I'm not not one of those who thinks you should STFU, but I do wonder why you're here.

Brent

[Aprilian]

As I stated before, I am a former rider coach; I think that will suffice.
I am not interested in participating in online pugilism... I thought I made that clear.

Bye Bye then. 
As a former rider coach with MSF and current advanced riding coach, I don't view any of those credentials as a justification of declining to state my identity or personal situation.

[Jared]

I am encouraging others to hear me out, and I have started a new topic to do so.

My perspective is that of a former rider coach with sincere concerns for rider safety.   I joined in January after discovering this site from colleagues of mine whom were not fond of the typical motorcycle message boards.  I have read posts and topics without commenting until now.  And I guess that is not customary here.

My hope is to engage in thoughtful discourse about riding safety and keeping other riders from harm; not to stroke egos or flex virtual tough guy attitudes behind a keyboard.  From what I have read in previous posts, most on here do not appreciate that electronic mundane bullshit either.  I am in the pursuit of a common truth grounded in civil discourse and based on intelligent thought supported by real evidence. 

To others that had obviously just reacted to Tim and joined in on the feeding frenzy:
I invite you to please re-read my post and offer an intelligent rebuttal (here).  Let's have a good conversation and engage in civil discourse.  Perhaps we call all learn something...  or continue to act as those you claim to disapprove of; on "those forums".

Could it be time to reevaluate the culture of group riding here with the Co-Director crashing more times in one season than many in a lifetime of motorcycling?
I mean no offense.  I am just indicating the alarming statistics of this group and crashes.  And it would not be an issue if the mantra of the this association did not include an emphasis on safe riding. I just recall the front page having a outline of safe riding practices which I thoroughly respected.  Has the absence of that page now communicated a philosophy shift?  Has the focus of balancing of riding safely and fun been eliminated?

I am just curious.  I have not attended a group ride with anyone here, but reading these recent reports and posts about crashes has been rather concerning to me.

Yul,

Thanks for your concerns about rider safety.  I am going to take you at your word that promoting it was your true motivation in posting.

I think some of the member's points above go straight to the heart of the matter.  The issues with your posts can be boiled down to perspective and credibility.  No one on this board knows you and because of that no one knows where you're coming from.  Entering a thread which is about a well respected member of the MSTA who has just been seriously injured and then raising questions about the group's "culture" it's not surprising that you got the response that you did.  I'm not saying it's a bad conversation to have, as others have pointed out it has been discussed at length in the past, but you have to have some background on what you're discussing.  Reading a forum off and on for a year doesn't give you any real perspective about about what this group or it's "culture" is.  The fact that you haven't posted until now also gave some (including me) the impression that your motivation was not to contribute something positive to the group but just to shit-stir.

I also don't think that your comments toward Tim are going to to get you anywhere.  You say that you're here for civil discourse based on intelligent thought so why don't you stay on the high road?

JP

[Jvs]

Thought I made a mistake and logged Into Mnsbr after reading this post lol

Yul- these guys put on 1000s of miles each season so staying crash free is inevitable. Training obviously reduces the risk of these accidents however; many things are simply beyond our control (ie deer, road hazards seen until it'd too late and so on). Tony is a very experienced rider that has a lot of influence in the sportbike community and simply flaming him for having a crash is a very good way to start off on the wrong foot here.

[mikey]

holy fuck!  whats with all the big fancy words?  shit happens, ppl make mistakes big deal.  i dont see how tony's lil fall has anything to do with the "culture" or anyone.  ive been on some awesome rides with a few of these guys, more then a couple with tony.  i guess unless you were in arkansas following him, or been on other rides with this group, well i would keep them kind of opinions to yourself.