Riding Safely

[Deplorable, thank you!]

^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually.  For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.

Sounds to me like you were just following and hoping and assuming Ray would lead you through. Not actually taking accountability for yourself and "riding your own ride"......Which is what we continually preach not to do.

You're too quick to assume that.  What I am saying is it is nice to follow someone who is experienced on a particular road when at a pace that I am also comfortable with.  Being human, would I have pushed myself too hard if I was in a lead position?  I try not to do that, but I prefer to follow until I know a road well by memory.

I know how "quick" Ray is, and since you were a first time to the roads following him at his pace. That pace was way over your head. I don't care if you been riding 13 years. There is riding and then there is riding. I know people that have ridden 40+ years that dont even understand braking or countersteering or so many other things, yet since they been riding forever they assume they are "good" riders.
I am not saying that is you, but a new road should be proceeded on with some trepedation and serious caution, regardless if you have someone "leading" you through that "knows" the road or not

Look I am not bashing on you in particular ( I am bashing on a percieved notion, that one can follow someone far more experienced on those roads and likely a far better rider just because they are "leading"), I am just making a point-you just happen to put up the post to prove it on.

Believe me it is no assumption on my part, it is fact.


"Also, new riders will most likely feel uncomfortable being out in front, knowing there are seasoned riders behind them. "

yes that has been my experience. Even on my Introductory rides, they get all ants in the pants nervous. I am not sure if it is becasue it is me behind them or just becasue they know they are being watched??

[Tumbler]

Today we seem to have a few "groups" within the group---and I am all for that ! But the "black diamond" riders still are the majority of rides and clearly not for everyone.  Especially  not for the underskilled and over confident.

I too think it’s nice to see different “groups” of riders.  I feel I fit in with more than one group depending on how I’m feeling & riding on any given ride.  The best part is that even the “black diamond” riders are nice enough to allow those of us that are slower to attend their rides for the most part.

.... Ray has said that he started the original list to find people to ride with.  I'm pretty sure he's more interested in fast, safe, experienced riders on sporty bikes who want to ride hundreds of miles of twisty roads per day, as opposed to relatively slow, inexperienced, slow cruiser riders who want to spend as much time stopped as riding.

As long a people are proficient and able to self navigate off a route sheet and take care of themselves on a ride, the more the merrier.

While I personally enjoy a brisk pace, that's my pace, and shouldn't be construed as what others need to ride to enjoy a ride. I'd love to see more riders riding a variety of paces on rides. I think this would make it easier for folks to fit in and find folks to ride with.

Exactly & well put Ray.  I know since starting to go on MSTA rides I've found more people that I like to ride with & have found people I never want to see in front of me on a ride.  Fortunately, the later type are people that have come over here from "other" forums.  Overall I've had more fun riding with this group the past two season than any season before.

At some point we're in the zone in corners we know and love and we're willing to take more risks.  Other times the mood isn't right, the corners feel awkward or new or something else is weighing us down, if we aren't smart enough to dial it back, sometimes WAY back, things tend to get messy even if we don't fall.

I know I have experienced some of this.  When I had my worst crash, all day I had two people ass packing me.  Rather than recognize the indicators & make adjustments, I ended up losing my focus in a corner & went down.  Lesson learned the hard way.

They don't ride like u want them to, kick it down a few gears, move along and go enjoy the roads how you want to, end of story.

That’s always an option…especially if you have a route sheet & can self-navigate.  I’ve done that many times even when by myself & other groups of bikes have held me up.

Damn this just made me lose 30 minutes of my life I can't have back.  Troll or no troll, stop this...

but it did make me want to ride.

That’s exactly what we should all be thinking….it kept us entertained but overall gave us some insight on our group as a whole.  I’ve been on other forums & this one is by far my favorite.  I would have no problem riding with almost all of you & have appreciated all that many of you have taught me about riding, leading rides, & motorcycling in general.

[Aprilian]

conclusion 1 - Most new (to spirited group rides) riders are nervous and trying to avoid looking bad or getting lost and therefore would benefit from a "sponsor" to help them successfully navigate their first few MNSTA rides.    NO, I am not volunteering.
conclusion 2 - New group ride riders patently do not understand the "Ride your own ride" comment.    I see this at the ZARS events too.  Somehow, we need to come up with something that makes people understand what their obligation to the group is.  Things like not crashing, not interfering with other's enjoyment of thier ride, not stressing themselves, not worrying about getting lost, etc.
Conclusion 3 - MNSTA threads seem to often require multiple restatements of facts and talking people down.   Perhaps if you want new riders to join (we are all getting older and greyer!) there could be a stickied "welcome to riding with MNSTA - what to expect on our group rides" thread which is kept factual and positive.

Best of luck, sorry that it has been MANY years since I have ridden with the group.

[beedawg]

conclusion 2 - New group ride riders patently do not understand the "Ride your own ride" comment.    I see this at the ZARS events too.

Seems pretty normal.  A person has no idea where his limits are until he begins to approach them.  Inexperienced riders don't know what it feels like to be near the limit of comfort or traction or anything else.  EVERYTHING feels like it's near the limit to a new rider.  Add the noise and chatter of a bunch of other bikes and strangers, and a newish rider goes on overload.

Good judgment comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgment.

OK, that's a generalization, and it seems to say that people have to crash to understand their limits, but there are things we can do to mitigate the consequences of their bad judgment.  A newish rider comes into the turn a little too fast, but then he remembers what someone told him at the last break: "Look where you wanna go!" or "Press the inside grip!"  He doesn't ride off into the ditch, and he's just gained some valuable experience.

Somehow, we need to come up with something that makes people understand what their obligation to the group is.  Things like not crashing, not interfering with other's enjoyment of thier ride, not stressing themselves, not worrying about getting lost, etc.

What I've usually tried to do on my rides (which have been scarce lately) is to assure everyone that they're not going to be left behind.  The best way to do this, IMO, is to NOT roll on the throttle at the beginning of a straight section, but instead slow down.  I'll sometimes ride under 50 mph until I can see everyone or almost everyone.  The second best way to do this, IMO, is to wait at EVERY turn until seeing everyone.  Some people don't want to ride this way, but I've seen that lots of my friends are OK with it, as long as they can ride at their own pace most of the day.

The thing that most people might not realize is that even the slowest rider only takes a couple more minutes to get through a challenging section of road than the fastest rider.  When you're a one of the slower riders, riding for 10 minutes without seeing a bike ahead of you makes you feel like you're way, way behind, but when you're the lead guy and you wait a minute or two for the slowest rider, it doesn't seem that long at all.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

can I had conclusions, 4-1,000,000

okay I will only add the one---and it is one of the conclusions I have had since this new forum layout and all the "everyone is welcome, come join" crap
Conclusion 4---MN-msta rides are not for everyone and we need to stop trying to be so damn politically correct and want everyone to join ( some, likley very many just shouldn't be on these rides or even on this forum.....I kicked 2 away on one of my introduction rides-they both were boneheads and both crashed to boot) We need to be willing to tell them the hard truth, you;
a) aren't welcome
b) aren't good enough (maybe they can't control their ego, or really are that bad, or needy or whatever)
c) Dont participate or add any value to the forum or the rides, goodbye
d) or whatever the scenario is

Not everyone belongs on this forum, hell about 200+ "members" of the forum aren't even really members-they add nothing and don't show up for rides ever.....Members should contribute to both the forum and the rides. Whether it is their ride, or joining a ride doesn't matter to me....Names to faces and being "known" and contributing in  a positive way.

I remember when I knew ever single name and had ridden with just about everyone on the yahoo format, now you have posters who have never even attempted to join anything-they just post their bullshit to post. (many are just drama seekers that should just stay on those other forums where their crap is appreciated and expected)

Okay maybe that is more than just Conclusion 4)

[kp]

all I'd like to say is that I agree with Brent. And as one of the slower riders, I appreciate
what he said. I'm comfortable with being a slower rider, and that doesn't equate to being
less experienced, that's just my comfort level and pace. That's a huge reason why I choose
not to do a lot of group rides. There's a few faster paced riders that I won't ride with because I
always feel like they're silently wishing I'd ride faster, it shows on their face and their body language.
And then there's a few faster paced riders (Vince, Martin, Jon P), that I enjoy riding with, and never make
me feel like they're waiting for me to hurry up.

 I also prefer to ride in the back of any group, I like having a bit more personal space. Always have.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

"it is one of the conclusions I have had"

hey thanks for pointing out the obvious-------I already made that distinction

But it is not only myself who feels this way-do you want to look at my pm inbox?

Besides there is nothing about that post that is inflammatory or insulting-it is simply fact.

It is no different than saying that I don't belong on ZG or TA, so bite me. Nice dletion there Greg---I'll let mine ride.

[Greg]

can I had conclusions, 4-1,000,000

okay I will only add the one---and it is one of the conclusions I have had since this new forum layout and all the "everyone is welcome, come join" crap
Conclusion 4---MN-msta rides are not for everyone and we need to stop trying to be so damn politically correct and want everyone to join ( some, likley very many just shouldn't be on these rides or even on this forum.....I kicked 2 away on one of my introduction rides-they both were boneheads and both crashed to boot) We need to be willing to tell them the hard truth, you;
a) aren't welcome
b) aren't good enough (maybe they can't control their ego, or really are that bad, or needy or whatever)
c) Dont participate or add any value to the forum or the rides, goodbye
d) or whatever the scenario is

Not everyone belongs on this forum, hell about 200+ "members" of the forum aren't even really members-they add nothing and don't show up for rides ever.....Members should contribute to both the forum and the rides. Whether it is their ride, or joining a ride doesn't matter to me....Names to faces and being "known" and contributing in  a positive way.

I remember when I knew ever single name and had ridden with just about everyone on the yahoo format, now you have posters who have never even attempted to join anything-they just post their bullshit to post. (many are just drama seekers that should just stay on those other forums where their crap is appreciated and expected)

Okay maybe that is more than just Conclusion 4)

In before the edit. Once again, Lloyd speaks only for himself.


*I will agree though (and I've made this thought known multiple times) that I as well put very little merit in someones post about how rides should be run when I rarely if ever see them put together a ride*

[aschendel]

In before the edit. Once again, Lloyd speaks only for himself.

Of course.  Although I agree with what he says much of the time, and even when I don't agree (with Lloyd or anyone else for that matter) I appreciate the dialog, civil discourse I believe was how Yul put it.

a.s.

[beedawg]

Once again, Lloyd speaks only for himself.

Of course, and I suppose I should have added that to my own post.  I would like to be relatively inclusive, but I should probably make it clear that I don't think it's wrong to be selective.

*I will agree though (and I've made this thought known multiple times) that I as well put very little merit in someones post about how rides should be run when I rarely if ever see them put together a ride*

I don't see how the number of rides that person organizes is relevant to whether that person has good ideas about how a group ride should be run.  Lots of people who've never organized a group ride have made useful suggestions to me about what makes a ride fun for them.

The recommendation to put new riders up front probably came from someone who organized lots of rides, but that particular suggestion hasn't worked well for me so far.

Brent

[Greg]

Once again, Lloyd speaks only for himself.

Of course, and I suppose I should have added that to my own post.  I would like to be relatively inclusive, but I should probably make it clear that I don't think it's wrong to be selective.

*I will agree though (and I've made this thought known multiple times) that I as well put very little merit in someones post about how rides should be run when I rarely if ever see them put together a ride*

I don't see how the number of rides that person organizes is relevant to whether that person has good ideas about how a group ride should be run.  Lots of people who've never organized a group ride have made useful suggestions to me about what makes a ride fun for them.

The recommendation to put new riders up front probably came from someone who organized lots of rides, but that particular suggestion hasn't worked well for me so far.

Brent

Agreed. Useful suggestions are terrific and appreciated. I should have been more succinct and said that in the past (meaning years ago) there would often be finger-pointing posts (not useful suggestions) after a ride complaining about this or that. I'm not singling out any specific post in this thread.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

"Riding safely" now tops the charts on the top 10 posted on threads...lol


snip again--"years ago) there would often be finger-pointing posts (not useful suggestions) after a ride complaining about this or that. "
Now they just come in the form of a text message, a pm or an email or they spread it via word of mouth and let the rumor mill get it back to you, or atleast that is what I saw a few times last season.

Yes useful suggestions is a much better approach, and if they are based on real experience within the group even better. IMO

[pkpk]

"Riding safely" now tops the charts on the top 10 posted on threads...lol

With that, Yul can now look at his accomplishment with satisfaction.  Too bad he only wanted to toss the grenade, and not be part of the dialog.

[Jared]

Agreed. Useful suggestions are terrific and appreciated. I should have been more succinct and said that in the past (meaning years ago) there would often be finger-pointing posts (not useful suggestions) after a ride complaining about this or that. I'm not singling out any specific post in this thread.

This is more what's at the root of the ride your own ride mentality, not trying to make rides open and available to anyone who wants to come.  I think it's an important distinction.  If someone is dangerous or disrespectful, we are not going to wash our hands of them and just say ride your own ride.  They won't be welcome.  **Cue comments about how disrespectful and dangerous Jared is.**

I've been riding MSTA/MN-Sportbike rides for 6 seasons.  This makes me a pup compared to others who have been here since before the interwebz.  When I started riding with this group of riders, I also rode with a buddy from HS/College and on rides from a bunch of other groups/forums (including the usual suspects).  After a season, I realized that I liked the MSTA rides better for a variety of reasons and stuck over here.  I look back at my first season riding  and find it completely absurd and completely irresponsible that I was willing to show up to rides with people I didn't know well and who were pretty unpredictable, but I was younger, dumber, and completely inexperienced.

I can definitely identify with Lloyd's sentiment around closing down the forum and rides to "outsiders" as I recognize that it introduces many who are not and will not ever be a good fit for MN-MSTA.  As a former outsider, however, I think it would be a shame.  I didn't know anyone from this group before I showed up for my first ride and probably wouldn't have found it unless it was "open".  I don't have a problem riding with someone who is new to the group as long as 1) They are not a tool and 2) They don't endanger me or others.  I know I'm probably opening a whole other can of worms around what "endanger" means in this context...

This is now the most replied to thread since this incarnation of the forum.  That makes me both happy and sad at the same time.

[carlson_mn]

As a former outsider, however, I think it would be a shame.  I didn't know anyone from this group before I showed up for my first ride and probably wouldn't have found it unless it was "open".  I don't have a problem riding with someone who is new to the group as long as 1) They are not a tool and 2) They don't endanger me or others.  I know I'm probably opening a whole other can of worms around what "endanger" means in this context...

This is now the most replied to thread since this incarnation of the forum.  That makes me both happy and sad at the same time.

That is pretty much my story, somebody mentioned that I check out the Sport-Touring site when I was 1st Thursday, - they actually meant sport-touring.com I believe, but I stumbled here, happened to show up at the first 'Last Wednesday' gathering - met a few people, then I've gone on to ride on a few group rides this year.  I have had a great time and enjoyed everyone I've ridden with.  It's easy enough to PM a half dozen people for personal group rides, so the options are out there to stay inclusive with who you ride with.