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Topics - Ray916MN

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31
Safety and Riding Tips / This Board Works Diiferently
« on: April 03, 2012, 09:48:36 AM »
The intent of this board is to serve as a reference repository for thoughts on riding safety and riding tips, not commentary.

On this board members have a different set of permissions for controlling topics they start. The intent is to give original posters editorial control over their posts and any thread which develops from their post to enable them to create a reference post/thread on the topic they have started. Original posters may leave all responses to their posts unedited and simply use the responses to make their original post better or they may edit the responses to provide responses to what they perceive as frequently asked questions or different points of view, whatever they feel makes their post/thread clearest and comprehensive as it relates to the topic they are trying to address.

Original posters in addition to normal permissions they have on other boards in this forum can:

  • Edit replies
  • Delete replies
  • Split replies off into separate topics

The intent of these permissions is to allow original posters to give editorial control over posts and threads which they are trying to create a reference post/thread on.

As the old saying goes, "there are 20 ways to skin a cat"  the intent of this forum is to also allow differing points of view on safety and riding tips to be posted. It is clear that this has the potential to create significant clutter, so everyone is encouraged to contribute to an original poster's thread on an existing topic, instead of starting their own. If significant clutter develops, we will work with the original posters of posts on overlapping topics and get the overlapping posts/threads merged to try to create a single reference on a topic.

Have fun folks! Hopefully this section will become an asset to the forum and riders in general.

32
Off Topic / We Disagree, We Dislike, We Hate - We Behave Civilly
« on: April 03, 2012, 08:13:45 AM »
There is no accounting for taste, preferences or opinions. We do not all agree and while respect for each other and our differences is advocated, this is subject to individual interpretation and everyone has their limits.

So, what to do when disagreement and dislike evolves into hate?

This morning the "Karna" feature was turned on. This enables anyone and everyone to either "applaud" or "smite" a member's post without disclosing their identity. The cumulative total of member reactions to a user's posts is shown in their profile and in the member profile panel which shows up with each member's posts. This gives members a way to "vote" on how they feel about another member's posts, aside from posting a response to a post. It allows members to show both their agreement and appreciation and their disagreement and dislike of a members contributions (posts) to the forum. Members can use another member's Karma numbers to understand how a forum member is perceived by other forum members.

Aside from using the Karma feature to make your feelings about another member known, members can also use the "ignore" feature to ignore both posts and/or PMs from any user. As the forum PM system is unmoderated, this ignore feature is the easiest way for members to stop receiving PMs from members they hate.

This is our forum, and I hope the Karma feature helps us celebrate what we think are positive contributions and point our what we think are negative contributions to the forum. I hope members find this feature useful in keeping the forum civil and showing their displeasure when things get uncivil or disrespectful. If it doesn't then the feature will be disabled. If it does, then the feature will remain enabled.

33
General Banter / The Door is Always Open
« on: March 31, 2012, 03:07:39 PM »
I wanted to make sure that everyone knows and understands that if they have any concerns or comments about how this forum is run or about how anyone on the forum is treated or treats anyone else I encourage them to either post them to the forum or to PM me, Tony or Roger with them.

While some may be more aggressive or outspoken than others they just like everyone else reflect their opinions not those of the club. It is also important to realize that in the absence of knowing your specific opinion on something, the opinions of those who choose to speak up or PM, Tony, Roger or I, are the only ones, aside our own that get factored in and considered when we try to figure out what to do with the forum and the club.

Thanks to everyone for your interest in the club and forum, and thanks in advance for your opinions and membership in the club and/or forum.

34
On the next MN-MSTA ride, I will critique and provide feedback for up to 4 riders.

From this thread http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1031.0.html , Lloyd wrote.

For me the compensation is simple. people more equipped with more knowledge of leading a ride, the roads, the routes and what is expected of them. With the side benefit of steering away some who clearly have no clue so as I will not have to deal with their shit later. With the hope and expectation that with that knowledge they will fit the group better and participate more.


I couldn't agree with this more.

Sounds too good to be true, right?

The caveat is this. Everyone who wants to be critiqued must agree to take equal turns at leading the group. I will only offer critiques for people who are willing to take equal turns leading the group.

I hear, it now, many who are interested are thinking that's stupid, if I was a good enough rider to lead I wouldn't be interested in having my riding critiqued. This reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of what it means to ride your own ride.

From the thread on Ride Your Own Ride http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1038.0.html

Tony's response was:

My definition of "ride your own ride" is that in a group setting you should ride as you normally would if you were riding the same route alone. For me this means I don't let the group determine my speed or when to pass cars or what line to take thru corners or whether to stop or not. If I have a routesheet and I know where the group is going there is no need for me to stay with the group.


As much as technical riding skills are critical to riding your own ride, learning to ride better when you are effectively riding alone, as you are, when you are leading a group is the real objective. The weakness of riders trying to learn to ride better by following others is that they primarily learn by imitating. They see the rider ahead of them and try to mimic what the rider ahead of them is doing. How they position their body off the bike, and the line they take through a turn.

Tailgating is one of the means I use to assess following riders. Many riders tailgate to make mimicking the rider ahead of them easier. I know when a rider is tailgating me to mimic me whenever I go through tight switchbacks where a series of rapid directional changes are required to navigate a series of turns. It is very very difficult to figure out and mimic the actions of a rider when they change from full lean in one direction to full lean in the other direction in a very short span of time. Mimicking riders are always able to mimic the first move of the rider ahead makes go into the first turn in a series of switchbacks, but when they are still leaned over turning one way and the bike in front of them snaps to full lean the other way it is much more difficult to mimic this move and so many mimicking riders either fail to make later turns in the series or get significantly gapped by the rider ahead of them in a series of switchbacks. Riders need to lead because it reduces their ability to fake having good riding skills. If you want to improve your skills, the person helping you needs to be able to see how good your skills are, not how good you are at acting like you have good skills.

Which brings me to another reason people who want to be critiqued need to lead. While I might be able to tell something about a following riders skills when leading them, frankly it is generally impossible to see much detail. Trying to see what a following riders is doing in your mirrors is like trying to drive down a road with your windows fogged up. This is especially true when I'm riding my Ducati, GSXR or pretty much any sportbike. The mirrors suck. For me to see what your body position is like, and what your lines look like, I can do a much better job when following.

Another reason people need to lead is that we are all taught that to safely ride on the street riders need to maintain some riding reserve. No one should ride at 100% of their capacity. If you think of riding while self navigating as akin to walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time, you'll understand, that when self navigating and riding a route becomes challenging, it is a signal that the amount of riding reserve you have is getting low. Now let's take the parallel a different way. When a child first learns to walk, it is very very challenging and it would probably be impossible for them to walk and chew gum at the same time. If you can't self navigate off a route sheet and ride at the same time, your riding skill set is somewhat akin to a baby who has just learned to walk.Riding and self navigating off a route sheet is not that difficult. If this is the case, you better pay allot of attention to how much riding reserve you maintain and better develop a habit of keeping track of how much you have in reserve. One of the ways I check to see how much reserve I have when I'm following is to self navigate even though I'm following. When I'm in a group and it becomes difficult for me to self navigate at the pace being run, I know my reserves are low. There are a multitude of other ways to keep track of "riding reserves", but this is in my experience a particularly good way to keep track of my mental riding reserves.

Here's the challenge. Riders who feel comfortable and capable of leading groups are in short supply relative to people who prefer to follow. The folks who all too often lead groups want more people to develop the skills to lead groups and many folks want feedback from the people who are experienced enough to lead groups. The opportunity to get feedback from more experienced riders is to offer to lead groups they are riding in. Make you're own learning opportunity. Ask someone who you would like to get feedback on your riding from on the next group ride you are on whether they would be willing to be in a group you lead. Take the initiative to create your own learning opportunity. I think you'll be surprised at how many folks will be willing to help you if they are approached this way.

Here's a little story for everyone to consider. A couple of years ago a rider well known on all the Minnesota forums, came along on an MN-MSTA ride and rode as part of group I was leading.  At the end of the ride, this rider asked me if I could give him some riding pointers. I said "sure,. I'd be willing to follow you and give you some feedback. Since this ride, request and offer, this rider has never shown up for another MN-MSTA ride that I know of. Since this ride I've seen videos taken by the rider posted on some of the other local forums which give a pretty clear indication of how he rides and he has crashed a couple of times. Based on the videos, there is certainly in my opinion much this rider could learn, and based on this post, I think everyone should get the point just asking for it is just a bunch of lip flapping. If you want help, you need to do more than just ask for it. You need to figure out what you can do to make it happen. Pretty much like anything in life that you want.

35
General Banter / Why I Belong To The MN-MSTA
« on: March 27, 2012, 01:54:13 PM »
I've been an MSTA member since 1996. I have been a Texas and Colorado member as well as Minnesota member. I was for a time the National Advertising Director for the club. I have been the Minnesota State Co-Director since 2004 and one of the organizers of TWISTAR, one of the MSTA's AMA sanctioned regional rallies for the past 6 years.

I joined the MSTA after meeting a couple of members who were having breakfast at a McDonalds before going on a Sunday ride which they invited me on. I can't remember the names of those members and never rode with them again, but the proficiency of their riding made think I should check out the MSTA. Since I joined the MSTA I have met and ridden with hundreds of very proficient and experienced riders all over the country. I have met riders who are vastly superior riders to me. Riders who know more about where the best places are to ride in the U.S. than I'll probably ever know. Riders who I'm happy to have met and ridden with and who I would follow or lead on a ride anywhere in the country.

So why am I an MSTA member. The MSTA is club which can open up your riding horizons in every dimension possible. Be it from riding with people who you can teach you how to ride better, or where the best places are to ride, or who can make a ride in a far away place easier and better, or riders who you can connect with who become lifelong riding buddies and friends.

There are other benefits like discounts on lodging, discounts on gear, a chance to get reimbursed by the club for half of what you paid for any safety gear, or safety related training, a club "magazine" which is published 8 times a year, as well as other benefits, but personally I don't care much about them. The principal benefit is all the great riders and people you meet and the great rides you have with the club. They provide a lifetime of great riding memories and a lifetime of great riding friends.

Right now it only costs $25 per year to be a member, and new members get a free coupon good for registration at any MSTA AMA sanctioned rally. Rally registration, not only gets you a great ride route, but it also gets you food (in the case of TWiSTAR, a Friday night BBQ and a Saturday night All You Can Eat Prime Rib and Chicken dinner) and an entry in the event door prize drawings

36
General Banter / Endemic MN-MSTA Problems
« on: March 27, 2012, 11:38:14 AM »
The MN-MSTA is an all volunteer run organization. It receives no funds from the national club. It is wholly and entirely supported by volunteers.

Endemic problem number 1: There are not enough ride organizers and group leaders in the club.

Everyone enjoys a good group ride, all too few are willing to organize one or volunteer to lead a group. If you don't know how to organize a ride or lead a group, we can help you learn.

Endemic problem number 2: Members who do not volunteer do not refrain from making suggestions to volunteers about how they think rides can be better run or led or how the club can provide more to members.

With a distinct shortage of volunteers, volunteers get discouraged when people who are unwilling to volunteer to make their own ideas happen, put forth ideas and get others who are unwilling to volunteer to agree that the club should implement their ideas. This implicitly places the onus on current volunteers to do more, which of course make the lack of volunteers more acute and makes it even tougher to get volunteers.

Remember everyone who puts together a ride or leads a group or puts out the newsletter or runs the forum is a volunteer and who wants to volunteer when their reward is to be criticized or told they could be doing more by members who are unwilling to volunteer.

If you have a suggestions on how things could be better, please try to figure out how you personally could do something to make your idea happen, as opposed to suggesting implicitly or explicitly that someone else make your great idea happen. If you are not a dues paying MSTA member, please recognize that any benefits you may receive from being on the forum or riding on an MN-MSTA ride are benefits which are intended to support the MN-MSTA. If you like what the MN-MSTA does and stands for but don't want to pay dues, you are more than welcome to enjoy what the club offers for free and are more than welcome to help the club as a volunteer, but that the club and forum exist principally to serve MN-MSTA member interests.

37
I think some context may help put this forum and MN-MSTA rides in perspective.

The MSTA (Motorcycle Sport Touring Association - http://ridemsta.com/ ) is a national AMA sanctioned riding club with about 1700 members. The club was originally formed in 1982.  Click here to see what Motorcycle Consumer News magazine had to say about the MSTA and safety. The club has for decades run AMA sanctioned rallies around the best riding areas in the country and currently runs a dozen or so of these rallies a year. Regional rallies typically draw over 100 riders from around the country and the national rally typically draws over 500 riders. In conjunction with a riding buddy, I met at an MSTA rally, I run TWiSTAR http://mstatwistar.info one of the club's AMA sanctioned regional rallies out of Spring Green. It is in its 19th year.

From a riding perspective, all the rallies are run using the same basic approach. Route sheets/files are provided to attendees and everyone rides their own ride. There are no special qualifications for attending, no special ride rules, no specified pace, no requirement that groups ride a certain way or that people lead groups a certain way. In decades and tens of thousands of miles covered by thousands of members this approach has proven to be a good way to run group rides when riders ride their own ride and operate their bikes proficiently and responsibly

This forum is the Minnesota chapter's forum. The object of the forum is to provide a place for MN-MSTA members to connect with each other and to enable non-members to connect with the MSTA and decide they would like to join the MSTA. As the approach the MSTA uses to run rallies is well established, well vetted and consistent through out the club.

Preferences for individual ways to run a group ride are part of riding your own ride. The provision of route sheets and lack of a club specified approach to leading a group ride are intended to allow people who agree on a specific ride pace and approach to do as they prefer without restriction or judgement. The opportunity here is not to debate how to best run a group ride so a rule can be made to force everyone to ride the same way or to be judged by, but to find people who like group rides run the way your like them run, at the pace you like to ride and to form your own riding group on MN-MSTA rides.

Finally, unlike other forums without the history and establishment of the MSTA, this forum is not about creating or establishing a new club or being a part of a forum run for private profit. It is the MN-MSTA's hope that participating in this forum and on MN-MSTA rides will cause people to become dues paying MSTA members.

38
Hopefully this post will help folks figure out whether a ride posted on the forum will be appropriate for them to join.

This forum places the onus on riders to be responsible for making sure they are prepared and capable of joining a ride posted on the forum. Over a decade of running group rides, the forum believes that first and foremost ride safety is the responsibility of each rider on a ride, not the group, and not the ride organizer or a ride leader. The default assumption of folks in this forum is if you have an accident is that it was your fault.

Everyone is expected to ride their own ride. This means if people are riding faster or slower than you want to, that's fine. This means you should not follow with a sub 2 second gap so you can follow the line of the rider in front you. No one is expected to keep up. Everyone is expected to have a way of carrying a route sheet and to be capable of using a route sheet to self navigate the ride route. To ride your own ride you should not be totally reliant on keeping up with other riders to ride the ride route.

We ride the Pace (click here to read about it). Hitting triple digits and using heavy braking on rides demonstrate a lack of skill and a good street riding attitude.

The preceding is the default expectation for rides on the forum. Deviations from this default will usually be noted by the organizer of a ride in their ride post. If you have a question about a specific ride, post it to the ride posting. For more on our rides, please read our MSTA Ride Guide - Read Before Doing an MSTA Ride.


39
General Banter / VW Buying Ducati?
« on: March 06, 2012, 09:32:04 PM »
http://www.gp-inside.com/News/Detail/1194

Translated:

While several names, including BMW, Mahindra, Hero Motocorp ... had been raised for the eventual redemption of Borgo Panigale, it seems (and we stress the conditional), whether that VW is finally the happy owner .

This information comes directly from a staff member of Ducati, who prefers, however (and will be readily understood) remain anonymous.

He said the visit in Borgo Panigale was held last week, and the funds would be already happening. Still according to him, an official statement should be published in the coming hours.

As stated above, this information is to be taken with the distance it must as it has not been officially confirmed by Ducati. Stay tuned!

40
General Banter / The Ring of Truth?
« on: February 20, 2012, 09:02:27 PM »

41
General Banter / Droooooooool
« on: February 11, 2012, 06:19:21 PM »

42
General Banter / Yee Haa !!!!
« on: January 05, 2012, 08:41:06 AM »

43
General Banter / Hidden BMW Feature
« on: January 01, 2012, 12:04:13 PM »

44
General Banter / Personal Attacks and Moderation
« on: December 10, 2011, 09:09:37 PM »
First I wanted to apologize for being lax on moderation recently. I've got a winter hobby totally unrelated to motorcycling and have been a bit focused on it. While I wasn't paying attention to this forum it appears some stuff has been posted that clearly needed to be moderated and some stuff was posted that the need to moderate was less clear. Either way in the past few months, the number of posts that have required moderation or needed to be considered for moderation has increased.

In an attempt to stop this trend, I'm going to try a different approach to moderation and see how it goes.

Any post which a member feels personally attacks them, can be reported by that person to me (click on the report post to moderator icon on the post) and I will moderate the post.

I hope that this removes any and all incentive for people to post things that are or can be perceived as personal attacks, and I hope this eliminates the need for anyone who feels they are being personally attacked to respond to the attack.

Simply put, no personal attacks folks. Please help me make this so.



45
General Banter / Safety Forum?
« on: December 08, 2011, 08:49:24 AM »
Over this past year there have been a number of posts with safety related content and we certainly have allot of riders with allot of riding experience as well as experience being safety instructors.

I was thinking about comments like one Ian made about "riding your own ride" not being well defined,as well as discussions of following distance, and thinking it might make sense to create a sub forum solely for these discussions, with the hope that discussions might be distilled into short informative posts which could be stickied to the top of the forum to serve as references for the forum on topics. Properly done, this might help us create a resource for the riding community and help us avoid the sometimes emotional unproductive rehashing of topics.

What does everyone think? Good idea, bad idea, who cares? What topics would people think need to be covered? Is focusing this closely on the topic, asking for Internet drama or a way to minimize it?

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