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General Category => Safety and Riding Tips => Topic started by: Jam-Bro on July 13, 2013, 11:52:32 PM
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I agree to a limit.....I still am not the one back there twisting someone elses throttle, applying pressure to the bars to turn at the proper turn point or iniatiating the brakes for them. Personal rsponsibility comes into play and far too many shuck that and think the leader is responsible for everything that happens.
Personally if I stopped and had a chat with someone (or gave some arm signals) everytime I watched them run over the centerline or stand it up mid corner etc-I would never ride with anyone because I wouldn't get to ride anywhere near how I want to ride... I would not be riding my own ride or anything that would resemble fun to me in the slightest. I do my teaching rides for those kinds of rides...
Don't get me wrong I have booted people from rides for riding like a douchebag, and I have pulled over to yell at the people too, usually for following too close and/or constantly crossing the centerline......but the fun has definately left then and no getting it back at that point, so now I just call it quits and leave them to figure out their own ride home, at a gas stop or crash scene. Point them in the general direction and bye bye.
Personal responsibility!!!!!!!
You and only you are responsible for you. Others can offer some guidance or assistance if they chose, but that is not their duty.
For some reason, my posts keep on disappearing... Not sure why. Here is one of my last deleted posts.
Peer pressure, ride your own ride, group riding... I read a few of your posts on vision, body pos, etc. and I disagree.
Peer pressure on a group ride???? 99.9% of the riders on this forum don't go on group rides to show off or see who's the fastest. People go on these ride to enjoy themselves and their bikes, because that is what it's all about, bikes. Group rides are about safety in numbers and camaraderie. Keeping an eye on and helping each other out. Not many of those "racer types" you speak of, attend the rides I go on. On the contrary, I see very conscientious riders and thus, very few minor incidents. Also, I don't ride because I feel peer pressure to ride. I ride because I enjoy it. So does everyone on this forum.
"Ride your own ride" is just that. Enjoy the road and your bike responsibly within your limits. Enjoy your own ride the way you want to, not the way Lloyd wants you to. For example, on one of your posts, you deride riders that get off on a turn or sit up close to the gas tank. Who cares!!! They are "RIDING THEIR RIDE", not yours Lloyd. Everyone can find their "zone" or their "flow" however they want. If Joe Yamaha wants to stick one cheek, his crack, and half the other cheek out on a turn, so what! It's his choice. He is enjoying his ride. There is no right or wrong here. It's a personal riding style choice an individual makes. I don't really care how someone rides as long as their actions don't endanger others. But you Mister Crabby, want to peer pressure others to ride like you. Not so cool!
Lastly, you may have some good points but it is the way you put them across that makes most wonder what's up. You say something that makes sense and then screw it up by saying something completely outrageous. You want to tell all of us how to do things but accept little input, prooven by all my deleted posts... Read your post above. It's a bit over 2 paragraphs and I counted 12 "I"s. Geez bro!!! It's all I I I. You want everyone to live in Lloyd's world but it is only you in there. My advice to you is, write down your good ideas. Then, remove yourself, your superiority complex, your anger and your condescending tone from them. What is left may be something worth reading.
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Well said Jam. "I" want "MY" rides to be fun for others so that they will enjoy the experience and maybe come along again. Although I'm the fastest rider in the known Universe and my bike has no equal "I" try to keep those truths to myself.GJ ::)
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You are funny GJ, but "I" am the funniest!!!
Love the sarcasm...
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I don't like sarcasm... so I'm never riding with either of you guys again! ;D
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Buhuhaaaaa
Me neither. "I" am taking all my toys and going home.
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Realization!
There is a big difference for me between riding with one - three friends and offering to lead a bigger open ride with people I have not met/ridden with. Strangers may not already know that I am a "f@(*tard", but my friends already appreciate me for that quality.
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I almost can't believe you think there is no peer pressure on MSTA rides. Every ride I've ever been on had recognizable peer pressure at some level... Do you bunch up behind the people waiting for a clear lane to pass? Do you make sure that people have a route sheet and can really follow them? Does everyone know all of your expectations throughout the ride and are you sure they are fully capable of meeting them? Can you put peer pressure on yourself when riding alone? Have you ever thought "I bet I can make that corner going 10mph faster..."?
That isn't really what I want to talk about though. I think as people lead more and more rides they begin to appreciate the unique challenges that being the leader brings. I've had 4 people crash "behind" me and while I wasn't on their bike making their decisions - the decisions I made and those that they made, combined with circumstances both in and out of our control, still haunt me. You don't want to be scraping your friends (or their friends, or their father-in-law from out of town on a borrowed bike) up, and you sure don't want your friends to have to scrape you up either, so be vigilant. Do everything that you can to ensure people you ride with really are comfortable "riding their own ride". I think that starts with acknowledging that peer pressure shows up for every ride, sometimes it gets there late, but it's always there.
Followers, Leaders and Peers all need to play an active role; and if you chose to ignore signs of people making bad decisions, sooner or later it will catch up with them -- and you.
a.s.
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I don't really agree that peer pressure is part of group riding. But then I only rode Hope's Cave Tour ride last year where everyone gave each other space and respect.
10-15 years ago (sorry, here comes the old man again), we never really fretted about peer pressure. Everyone knew where/who they were riding with and we didn't really fixate on worrying about what others thought. Any crashes were usually by guys who eventually went to the race track. The group rides were all about having fun any we usually laughed about the occasional brain farts that led to someone messing up a corner.
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I don't really agree that peer pressure is part of group riding. But then I only rode Hope's Cave Tour ride last year where everyone gave each other space and respect.
10-15 years ago (sorry, here comes the old man again), we never really fretted about peer pressure. Everyone knew where/who they were riding with and we didn't really fixate on worrying about what others thought. Any crashes were usually by guys who eventually went to the race track. The group rides were all about having fun any we usually laughed about the occasional brain farts that led to someone messing up a corner.
Me thinks you are viewing the past through rose colored glasses. I suspect many of these same concerns (I wouldn't call it "peer pressure" though) were thought about then, there just wasn't this easy a venue to discuss them.
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Well we had our pre ride parking lot meeting that reminded everyone to ride their own ride. That would be the point where people were already deciding whom to ride with. One thing I can say that is different now versus then is we would stagger the start with each cluster leaving at their own leisure and not one big long train out of the parking lot. But outside of that early pre-ride stuff, there was no fixation on peer pressure (that I know of) the rest of the day. But maybe that's just me.
I also think there was a broader age range, skill level and even bike type back then. There were older riders on luxo-touring rigs and sportbikes, young riders on sportbikes and rat bikes that we all wondered if they would make it through the whole ride and newbies on cruisers. Rose colored glasses, maybe but it just didn't seem like there were any need for peer pressure. The newbies on cruisers knew they were not going to keep up with anyone with advanced skill levels (and they never tried.)
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Well we had our pre ride parking lot meeting that reminded everyone to ride their own ride. That would be the point where people were already deciding whom to ride with. One thing I can say that is different now versus then is we would stagger the start with each cluster leaving at their own leisure and not one big long train out of the parking lot. But outside of that early pre-ride stuff, there was no fixation on peer pressure (that I know of) the rest of the day. But maybe that's just me.
I also think there was a broader age range, skill level and even bike type back then. There were older riders on luxo-touring rigs and sportbikes, young riders on sportbikes and rat bikes that we all wondered if they would make it through the whole ride and newbies on cruisers. Rose colored glasses, maybe but it just didn't seem like there were any need for peer pressure. The newbies on cruisers knew they were not going to keep up with anyone with advanced skill levels (and they never tried.)
I'm a noob but that's about how it is now... most rides I am on are not more than 6 riders so no need to split up. Bigger groups we have split up and staggered about 5-10 minutes. No cruisers really show up though... mostly super sports no doubt but Joel and I represent the ST a little bit
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.....but Joel and I represent the ST a little bit
You need bigger bellies and a preoccupation with pie stops. :D
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I think the point I was trying to make was more philosophical. Thinking of peer pressure as a single thing that people (kids, mostly, right?) do or don't do to others is insufficient. Thinking about it like something that can be addressed in a pre-ride meeting or our "ride your own ride" mantra and then "it won't happen on this ride" is also inadequate.
This topic is particularly difficult to discuss because our perspective is naturally "backwards". Even though he wants to, Paul can't say whether or not Hope felt any pressure (I believe I would have), and similarly Jamie can't say the people on his rides did or didn't feel pressured. Each person can only speak to the pressure which they personally felt, consciously recognized and subsequently admitted. Unfortunately there are many times we fail to even realize it's happening and even if we recognize it we likely won't admit it (due to peer pressure, ironically enough).
In my experience, pressures come and go, each situation encountered by participants on a ride may lead to or involve different types of pressure. There are thousands (millions? infinite?) of tiny opportunities during each ride where each individual rider will take an action in response to the information they have at their disposal. Failing to observe the basic fact that a huge amount of that information comes from "the group" really does show how far we are from understanding the dynamics of group riding and human interaction in any form.
Jamie is right to point out that each of us expressing our opinions is peer pressure... (although he may have overlooked that he was doing the same thing as Lloyd) How often do we follow the loudest or most charismatic leader without thinking? I think it is very important to carefully and conscientiously evaluate the information we have. Sometimes we need to accept input from a "negative" source... maybe a "close call" or a person we don't care for gives us feedback. And even more importantly, I think the topic of this thread was something along the lines that we each need to be more careful about the information we are giving to those around us. Do you *know* how your comments and actions (even the seemingly insignificant ones) are going to affect those around you? Of course not - only once they receive that information from you and process it along with the rest of the stimulation they have can they decide how to react - so play it a little safer, be a little more courteous, be a lot more gracious, and give yourself a little more time to respond.
a.s.
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(http://michaeldynie.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/dude-confused.jpg)
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.....but Joel and I represent the ST a little bit
You need bigger bellies and a preoccupation with pie stops. :D
What about scragly gray beards?
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Even though he wants to, Paul can't say whether or not Hope felt any pressure (I believe I would have).....
Well for the record, if Hope felt any pressure, she did a good job not conveying it and it never even occurred to me that she might felt pressure. I think she should be proud that she kept 11 males in locked formation behind her 250 for over 100 miles. I thought it was a great ride and a hoot down in those caves.
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Is there peer pressure on rides, you bet there is. I have never been on one that there wasn't some at some point in the ride.
On Hope ride there was peer pressure. She just didn't show it to those that don't know her. But it is there for her or any one that puts a ride together. She was under pressure to make sure we were there on time. That we had a place to buy gas and food. To make sure everyone had a good time and we didn't get lost. Putting this all together was not easy for her. Ridding the bike was the easy part. The event turn out great and I know she liked doing it.
For me is there peer pressure, sure. I don't what others to fall. So I keep the bike behind close by. If he falls back I slow my pace. I didn't even know the word pace until I meet Ray. When I started group ridding we got together by phone calls. So this meant that we knew each other well enough to know what the other could do. But we still had crashes and there was one almost every ride. Sad isn't it.
I don't know what I am really trying to say because it is 1 in the morning here at Mt. McKinley and the sun never goes down. But I can tell you there is a skill to leading a group ride and there is a skill to following on a group ride. I think we just need to limit the number of new rides to just a few so they can learn how to stay in check.
I am still learning that is why I go on ZG rides. Lol.
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Leading the cave ride and girls ride last year there was some pressure yes but it didn't keep me from having fun and enjoying the rides. The cave ride specifically we had a very tight time schedule. The caves were far away and only did tours at certain times and if I had lead a group of riders all the way down there and missed the tour I would've felt really bad. Once we made it to the second cave on time it was a huge relief and more relaxing. Having everyone follow behind me wasn't bad at all. Like PK said everyone who came stayed in formation and no one did anything stupid so I'm very happy with those who came for making it a success.
Leading the girls rides (and other rides) I do sometimes feel pressure but do my best to let it go and just enjoy the ride. At times I feel like who ever is behind me is watching how I ride and judging me and depending who that is, sometimes I care about what they think and sometimes I don't care. I get criticized all the time for being a slower rider and that my bike is "only a 250". As a mother of 3 and a critical care nurse who has had countless patients involved in motorcycle accidents I'm fine with being a "slow" rider. It seems as though everyone else has the problem with it. I started riding in my 30's and have nothing to prove to anyone, I'm just having fun. I'm not a 20 something guy who rides likes he's invicible. I'm a mother of 3 who rides like I have a family to go home to. This is why I don't like group rides anymore. I ride in the back and let everyone go ahead and ride how I feel comfortable without having someone riding on my ass trying to push me to go faster. Sure people have to wait a couple minutes but so what. No ride leader has ever complained to me, not even on ZG rides. I don't care to be in the middle of the pack either. Quite simply I don't trust those around me that I don't know well and if something happened with another rider close to me it can put me in a bad position so I'm content hanging out in the back and I have to say I've observed a LOT of stupid things in just the couple years I've been on my own bike.
From another perspective, when I read the title of these threads about peer pressure one thing to came to mind right away is these young immature guys always having to be faster than any girls. I'm not talking about when riding in formation like the cave ride. A good example is a ride I was on last year. There was a newbie, a younger guy, on a 600. I started out in back like usual and was riding my usual pace. So we get to the twisties and I find myself right behind this guy and wanting to go just a little faster then he is. I followed him for a while but it was clear he was new and not going to speed up and I didn't want him to feel like I was pressuring him at all. So I go ahead and pass him. The first straight away we get to he cracks open the throttle and pulls away ahead of me. Well like I said he wasn't that fast so again in the corners I catch up and again pass him when it's safe. What does he do? You guessed it! First straight road he's gone again. His ego just couldn't allow him to be behind a girl and the last rider in the group so he started riding (surely above his abilities) to avoid that. I wasn't interested in playing games with that idiot so I just stayed back and kept my distance waiting for him to crash. Playing his back and forth game was quite frankly ruining the fun of the ride. I think that's around the time I started doing less group rides and just going solo or with only 1-2 others. He was clearly feeling some pressure and I didn't want to be a part of his douchebag riding style.
I think it's a normal human reaction to feel some pressure when leading others and just being part of a ride. Like Lloyd mentioned no one wants to be the one holding people up or get lost, etc... Of course riding the only 250 and being a slower rider in a group I feel pressure. I don't feel pressure to keep up but I don't want others waiting 10 min at every turn either. But I do try to alleviate some of this. I try to know where I'm going so if you want to leave I can. I keep maps of MN and WI under my seat and have gone riding solo enough now that I feel pretty comfortable I could find my way home if I had to. Also knowing who I'm riding with and how they ride if helps so there are no surprises. And I stopped caring so much about what others think and ride my own ride. It's simple but not always easy. I admit I'm only human and sometimes it bothers me when people who I think are friends complain but I've learned to accept it for what it is and as long as I'm having a good time that's all that matters ;D I think if people believe they are sooooo much better and such superior riders than me then instead of bitching about me behind my back they should offer advice or constructive criticism. Thus far Lloyd and Vince are the only two who have ever done this and I appreciate the feedback and have learned from them both.
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Great approach and attitude. :)