mn-msta.com
General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Mr. Gadget on September 14, 2011, 04:44:58 PM
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Group Riding Speed Rating - Proposed Pace System by Mr. Gadget
First of all I can't wait to read the banter from everyone that the Newbie is even suggesting such a pacing system ::) This is only a proposed Pace System all ideas and improvements are welcome. Thanks in advance for looking this system over.
This was created out of being nicely slapped around by certain people that were looking to keep the new guy on the straight and narrow :-X New riders want to fit in and knowing this simple type of pacing system will help them hook-up with the right riding groups. This will also help with safety and prevent riders trying to keep up and ride outside their comfort zone.
I noticed that no one else has been properly describing the speed parameters lately specified in the "Please Read Before Posting A Ride" post for their rides. So, to make things easier I came up with four ratings from P1 to P4 and then everyone knows what pace and kind of ride the leader of the ride does or has planned.
For example: Vince would be at Pace 1 leader ;D and Allon might be at Pace 1 in the morning and at Pace 3 after lunch or on the last leg of the day 8) or say some BMW Sport Touring person wants to lead a Pace 4 ride as a Fall Colors tour ;)
Pace 1 or P1
Populated / Main Roads (Speed limit + up to 30 mph over)
Rural / Back Roads (Speed limit + up to 40 mph over)
Curves (Posted speeds x 2 + another up to 10 mph ?
Stops for fuel and breaks for up to 15 minutes every 100 to 140 miles or up to 2.0 hours in the saddle
Pace 2 or P2
Populated / Main Roads (Speed limit + up to 20 mph over)
Rural / Back Roads (Speed limit + up to 30 mph over)
Curves (Posted speeds x 2)
Stops for fuel and breaks for up to 20 minutes every 90 to 120 miles or up to 1.5 hours in the saddle
Pace 3 or P3
Populated / Main Roads (Speed limit + up to 10 mph over)
Rural / Back Roads (Speed limit + up to 20 mph over)
Curves (Posted speeds x 1.5 to x 2)
Stops for fuel and breaks for up to 20 minutes every 80 to 100 miles or up to 1.25 hours in the saddle
+ Quick stops at points of interest (photos and a quick drink)
Pace 4 or P4
Populated / Main Roads (Speed limit + up to 5 mph over)
Rural / Back Roads (Speed limit + up to 15 mph over)
Curves (Posted speeds up to x 1.5)
Stops for fuel and breaks for up to 30 minutes every 80 to 100 miles or up to 1.25 hours in the saddle
+ Stops at points of interest (Photos, Walk around, Snack and a drink up to 30 minutes)
MPH is based on GPS speed not speedometer which normally shows higher speed than actual speed. (Most bikes speedometers read 3-10% above the actual speed and vary in this range based on your speed. Slower speeds like 30 MPH might be right on and then as you speed up the percentage off takes over)
Stop time for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner vary and usually include fueling up.
On bigger rides like TWISTAR people can go with the leader based on their Pace number. I know on my 1st group ride last year with the MN-MSTA at the Tri-State Boogie I wasn't sure what group to go with and since I have a ST1100 someone suggested I go with a slow group. I opted to go with Allon's group that morning and he was burning it up at P1 pace way too fast for the new guy. So, then I got with another group at one of the fuel stops and they were just right at P2 to P3 pace.
I hope this will help ride leaders and new or newer riders to decide which rides to go on and / or what group of riders to go out with at a big group event.
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The idea is everyone has a route sheet or route file and therefore the only pace they need to pay attention to is the pace they want to ride. This is fundamental to riding your own ride, which is fundamental to group ride safety.
Declare a ride pace and that means anyone and everyone who shows up implicitly needs to ride the declared pace of the ride or the group. How is that promoting ride your own ride. What are you going to do if they don't ride the declared pace?
What's the pace of the ride? It needs to be whatever an individual rider feels comfortable with and wants to ride at, not what a ride organizer or leader declares.
Lastly, if you're the organizer or leader and you declare a ride pace, realize that you are increasing your legal liability for accidents on the ride. That your prescription of a ride pace, indicated that the route could be taken at the prescribed pace. You open the door for a participant to put forth the argument that the ride pace was too fast and that is why they crashed. It can be argued that you also stated that everyone is supposed to ride their own pace, but if this is the case, what is the point of declaring a ride pace? The AMA Risk Management course which is required to be completed by organizers of AMA sanctioned rallies implicitly advises against these types of statements by ride organizers and workers because of the legal liability they create.
There has been over a decade of discussion on this topic on this forum and its predecessor and I think the preceding pretty much summarizes where the discussion ended up.
Anyone should feel free to state what pace they personally intend to ride at on a ride, but that is very different than the ride organizer stating that a ride will run at a given pace.
So why does the "please read before posting a ride" article say suggest posting a ride pace if appropriate? Because if you run a ride without a route sheet, people need to know the pace, because the only way they are going to know where the route goes is to keep up. Most people don't post ride paces with their rides because they provide route sheets for their rides and they expect the people who show up for their rides to be able to ride the route at their own pace.
Make sense?
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I know on my 1st group ride last year with the MN-MSTA at the Tri-State Boogie I wasn't sure what group to go with and since I have a ST1100 someone suggested I go with a slow group. .............I hope this will help ride leaders and new or newer riders to decide which rides to go on and / or what group of riders to go out with at a big group event.
The irony here is....as the leader of the "slow" group on that Boogie Ride last year, we still wound up being the first ones at the lunch stop. Nothing beats following a leader with a reliable GPS with the accurate routing so no time is wasted making wrong turns or backtracking.
But yeah, when you were stating that you did not necessarily want to ride "slow" and started showing me your ground down metal parts, I encouraged you to join the faster group. But here is the deal....with a group of familiar riders, I'm not that slow and I have plenty of LEO awards to prove it. It's when I have unfamiliar riders that I tend to keep a sedate pace and wait at most intersections for everyone to gather. This winds up being sort of tedious and does make the pace feel slow. As Ray said, when you start assigning riders a ranking, there winds up creating a mental frame for that rider to maintain a specific pace.
Back when I had a VFR, I could ride well over my head with a comfortable feeling. But pace was rather streaky, not something I could sustain all day long. I enjoyed being able to decide when and where I would get into that zone, and I could not deal with having to maintain a predefined pace. This is one reason why I generally would ride alone, or with only a few others at the most. I found myself stressed trying to lead faster riders on extended higher speed pace or frustrated while trying to lead slow riders all afternoon.
If anything, I found we should break groups up into map reading skills. Those who can't read maps, read route sheets or use a GPS are encouraged to follow guys who call themselves 'Mr. Gadget.' :D
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many ride for the "freedom" it gives us. more rules are counter productive.
i don't see any problem with riding your own ride, and people waiting at intersections.
let it go.......nothing is broken.
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Lastly, if you're the organizer or leader and you declare a ride pace, realize that you are increasing your legal liability for accidents on the ride. That your prescription of a ride pace, indicated that the route could be taken at the prescribed pace. You open the door for a participant to put forth the argument that the ride pace was too fast and that is why they crashed.
This. Having prescribed groups who by definition will be breaking the law in varying degrees is not a great idea from a risk perspective. Making people responsible for their own actions and decisions is the only way to go here.
let it go.......nothing is broken.
And this too.
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There is a question/point which I failed to address in my previous post, and that question is how do people find the right group of people for them to ride with on a ride.
The answer depends. It depends on who shows up for a ride, how many people show up for a ride, what the ride organizer wants to do and/or can do to support a ride, how people want to ride on a given day and time and lastly it depends how all these things come together. Given that rides are organized and led by volunteers, there isn't any way I've found to organize a ride where any given rider is going to be assured a good riding group match with all the depends.
So how do you find the best fit possible when there are multiple groups of riders on a ride? Be prepared to ride your own ride by being prepared to ride the route while self navigating. Ask the ride organizer for help in finding a match. Be specific and honest about the pace you like to ride. Do not use qualitative terms to describe the pace you like to ride like fast or slow. Use empirical terms like 10+ on straights and 1.5 marked speed in turns. If the organizer isn't much help, be the first person out on the route and let groups pass you on the road. Follow them and see if you like the pace they are running. Hook on the back of a group which is running a pace you feel comfortable with and if you don't find such a group, ride solo. If you know people who ride at a pace you like to ride, make your own riding group by inviting them to go on the ride with you.
Be patient. Sometimes you find a group which fits the pace you want to run perfectly, sometimes you find a group which is close but not perfect and sometimes you find you have to form your own group. You can't expect a ride organizer to ensure that a ride will have a group that runs at the pace any given rider wants to run, so be prepared to figure it out or make it happen for yourself.
Simply put, all this nets to ride your own ride and be responsible for your ride. While it is nice when an organizer manages to make it easy for participants to find an appropriate group to ride with on a ride, there are too many depends for any volunteer organizer to do this and there is no pace rating system in the world that is going to assure that it won't depend.
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I like what Mr. Gadget is trying to do, and also agree that most of what followed is the way it ends up working in the real world (and the real world can definitely be frustrating for organizers, leaders and followers).
Until I know the leader / ride style I have a very different goal: figure out what's going on here. I don't show up with any pretense about having fun or expecting (but I'm always hoping) people to do what I'd like to do; my mentality is strictly trying learn about the people / ride, not fall down (i.e. be safe enough) and fit in. After I learn what I need to (seldom on the 1st ride, and I don't always do a 2nd) then my goal changes: have at least as much fun as the leader is having. If it's a well-meshed group and everything's working well, I have fun riding; if anyone or anything is making it hard for the leader, I do whatever I can to assist, regardless of what that means for "my ride".
Life is short, group riding well is really, really difficult. The ultimate group ride for me is probably a track day. The roads are awesome, nobody gets lost and anyone who falls, runs out of gas or breaks down isn't far from help, and I generally don't have to be too involved; although sometimes the views get old and the food generally sucks. Aside from that, each ride I've been on or organized ends up having its own dynamic and almost never fits perfectly into any kind of mold.
Good leaders need good followers, and good leaders can't be solely concerned with having the same fun as riding solo - which is why people get burned out of leading. And good followers can't be assured they will have the same fun as riding solo - which is why people get burned out of following.
I would like to point out that if I'm leading, my ideal pacing won't fit your categories very well (that's not criticism). I'd say (vs. do 8)):
P3: Populated / Main Roads (Speed limit + up to 10 mph over)
P3: Rural / Back Roads (Speed limit + up to 20 mph over)
P1: Curves (Posted speeds x 2 + another up to 10 mph ?)
P1: Stops for fuel and breaks for up to 15 minutes every 100 to 140 miles or up to 2.0 hours in the saddle
In towns (Speed limit + up to 5 mph under)
Or I'd sum it up as "I'm going to go 65-85ish and I won't slow down for much so pay attention, I'll wait at the confusing turns but here's a sheet, follow it even if you can see the person in front of you - let me know if you ever feel that you are in over your head. Who's got the shortest range (fuel, bladder, food)? Are you sure? Ok, we'll stop __________ for __________. Any Questions?"
This forum is pretty small and it tends to be a good place to find people that can aren't too stubborn (or should I say are stubborn in ways I appreciate), people who have a similar idea about what a good time looks like: the boonies on a bike.
a.s.
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Interesting discussion. My rding style when leading doesn't neatly fit into a P1 - P4 format. Way too many variables. I'm in P1 on a smooth twisty road that I like. Maybe P2 or P3 if the road surface is beat up or has pea gravel in some blind corners near the apex. I might be P4 if my lunch didn't settle well. All this can occur on the same ride. Much depends on my perception of the threat from law enforcement also. If the road surface is wet I would tend to a higher P level. The condition of my tires is also a factor. So it is conceivable I could lead a 200 mile ride and move between all 4 P levels. That is why I don't announce a pace when I post a ride. I just don't know how I am going to ride on any given day.
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Couple things I don't get from some of the comments in this post and in other posts over the course of a year. If the goal is that everyone follows a route sheet and rides their own pace, then is there a need for a "leader" and "followers"? I understand everyone starting from a given point and given time so that everyone ends up at a gas stop or lunch break at relatively the same time. I also understand if a route sheet is not given out that you would then indeed have a leader and followers. Just trying to figure out when you really need a leader and when you don't.
So if I posted up a ride, gave out route sheets and told everyone to ride their own ride, I know I would not be leading the ride because there would be people much faster than me on the route. I also would not expect people faster than me to stay behind me, thats not an enjoyable ride for them. So in that case, what would be expected of a ride "leader"?
Just trying to understand the principles at work here. Mr. Gadget, good ideas although I think I'm more in the camp of less rules and to TK's and Lloyds points, over the course of a ride you may fall into various classifications depending on time of day, your fatigue factor and the roads/terrain you are on.
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Couple things I don't get from some of the comments in this post and in other posts over the course of a year. If the goal is that everyone follows a route sheet and rides their own pace, then is there a need for a "leader" and "followers"?
Good point. Be cognizant that most posts don't use those words. For example, when I put together a ride I now use the term "organizer".
On "official" MSTA rides there by default really isn't a "leader" per se. If someone wants to put together an ad hoc ride, then they may use whatever descriptive words they deem fit.
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Route sheets are, IMHO, dangerous as they take your focus off the road.
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"Couple things I don't get from some of the comments in this post and in other posts over the course of a year. If the goal is that everyone follows a route sheet and rides their own pace, then is there a need for a "leader" and "followers"?"
-Because far too many take for granted they will be paraded around by a "leader".
-Because far too many are incapable of following a route sheet while they ride, some for the logic and reasoning Tim states.
-Because part of the learning process of the organization , the rides, the roads and how to read and ride at the same time is being paraded around while you establish these skills (hopefully you are not just "following the leader" you are actually looking at the route sheet and knowing when and where to expect the next turns, that you are learning some of the regularly routed roads etc...so you someday do not require a leader to parade you around.
"when I put together a ride I now use the term "organizer"."
-Yes Greg we have all seen your recent, "organizing not leading" ride posts...lol
"So if I posted up a ride, gave out route sheets and told everyone to ride their own ride"
-Half the problem there is that most people don't understand what "ride your own ride" means.
-They don't have the necessary skills to actually know there true riding limitations and then have enough self control to actually stay within those limits.
Most of this is because they have never learned proper riding skills and techniques, because it "isn't required". The vast majority of riders I see, stopped learning as soon as they figured out how to twist the throttle and squeeze the brake. They have no understanding how to turn or steer or how body position affects it all, .....................and I could go on for hours, days, weeks, months......
Of course these are only my opinions and don't reflect what anyone or any organizational leaders may feel , see or say.
And while a route sheet certainly does take your eyes off the road more than anyone would desire (especially if you didn't write it or it is overly complicated) they are necessary (or a talking GPS) in order for most of the ride participants to get from point A to point B and be "self sufficient" in there own navigating and oace etc....Otherwise they do have to "follow the leader" and ride at the leaders pace or be left behind....
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If you look closely you will see that the majority of people post rides as organizers, not as leaders. A subtle but important distinction.
While organizers may end up a leading groups on rides the distinction being made is one of emphasis. The emphasis is not on people leading rides, which implies that everyone rides in one big group and that people can ignore route sheets and depend on ride leaders to lead them, but on organizing rides so people can ride however and with whomever they want.
Of course if you're riding in a group, whoever is at the head of the group is leading, but the intent here is for anyone and everyone in a given group to be prepared and capable of leading so if they want they can lead, they can break away from the group, or they can help the leader keep a group on route. When I lead, I love it when someone comes by and takes over leading and when I'm following, I like to pass and take over leading at times. Makes a ride much more interesting when there are different leaders and riders in a group shuffle the group order during a ride.
A declared leader make it seem like no one else is allowed to lead and everyone else must follow.
Route sheets are distracting and can be difficult to follow. Thank god for GPS units......
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Operator: Hello 911, where are you?
"Follower": I have NO IDEA, I can't (or chose not to) follow the route sheet.
Not being aware of where you are and how to either proceed forward or backward from your current position is extraordinarily shortsighted (not to mention "needy"). Not being able to take at most $1 of your hypothetical $10 to follow your sheet probably is an indication that you're riding beyond your limits.
Also, at the risk of being misinterpreted and misunderstood, if I can't see or be seen with the group on a ride, I most likely won't bother hanging around. The only upsides (coming to mind) to running someone else's route sheet basically solo is learning new roads (nothing to scoff at) and small talk at breaks. Almost worth it with you guys and your routes, but not quite, for me. I want to see other people in my group and be seen in a group by others.
a.s.
p.s. I also dig it when other people are willing to lead sections of rides that I organize that they either know or are easy enough to learn. Mixing up the rider order is great and I love when it happens.
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Also, at the risk of being misinterpreted and misunderstood, if I can't see or be seen with the group on a ride, I most likely won't bother hanging around. ..... I want to see other people in my group and be seen in a group by others.order is great and I love when it happens.
I had to LOL on this one. My one and only official MNSBR ride, I showed up with my ST1100 while the rest were all sportbikes. I laughed because I already knew how this "group ride" was going to turn out. Sure enough, within 5 minutes of starting the ride, I could see all 25 bikes in a train about 1 mile ahead of me in the valley below. I did my own ride that day. :)
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It was a posted ride. Yes, they didn't have too many but this was a "kickstands up by..." and had a pre-made route, not unlike the organized rides posted here.
To be fair, I showed up a little late so I probably missed the pre-ride where they advertised the *30+ over, make sure you keep up with the guy ahead of you*.
I knew what I was getting into. I didn't care, I had the route in my GPS and enjoyed it. I still laugh about it because they were all strung together. Wonder if they rode that way all day.
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Really, though... There are no official MNSBR group rides. Just people that meet up and ride.
And just so that all are aware, ............
yes there are, I have done a few, as have a few other members.
But does it really matter.......the main difference between and official mn-msta ride and any other ride posted on here is the support of "leaders" that comes with an official ride...IMO
When I have done "official" rides, I know I can count on atleast a couple other members showing up prepared to lead and help, all of the rides that I just post up or do via pm or email etc that are not "official" I know I am completely on my own and expect that I will be "leading" and in charge of pretty much everything...lunch, gas, crashes, idiotic behavior patrol, repair and maintenance of those bikes in need, how fast we go and when , passing, who I allow to come along, you name it I am in control of it.........Even if it shouldn't be this way it always is.
This is just one generalized example--- (based on riding with hundreds of different riders each year, not all of whom are on this forum or even on my "like to ride with" list;
When I have to base my passing of vehicles on;
the skills and brain power of those following me, you know it isn't a "ride your own ride" happening. When I look in the mirror and see;
people strung out for miles and slow down or stop and wait to gather them all back together....that again is not "ride your own ride"
Likewise when the group is all ass packing each other and I speed up....I could give far too many examples----------and I am not saying this to out anyone, rather for some to wake up and take control of their own riding and actually "ride thier own ride"........too bad most of them won't listen or read this
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I'm listening and reading Lloyd.... just listening and reading. :P
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Geez, I guess since this is MN-MSTA I figured you were talking about us.
I couldn't give a shit less about mnsbr official rides or not, or any of those other forums.
So I guess I better read better, I saw XXXXX and thought you were saying mn-msta. sorry for the misinterpretation
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Vander - I was simply relaying an experience as a point of humor. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop taking things as always having a deeper meaning.
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Route sheets are, IMHO, dangerous as they take your focus off the road.
Following faster riders with a fear of getting lost IMHO is far worse. With a route sheet, you can at least pull over and study it. My (limited) route sheets usually have a phone number in case someone gets separated.
This thread confirms what I prefer, solo ride up to 4 similarly-minded riders. Reread the posts to see that everyone's suggestions are how to reduce stress, risk, etc.
I have read how much stress Lloyd experiences (and shares ;D) trying to heard a group safely through a ride, I'm out to ride to recharge my batteries. Part of that may be that I am more an introvert, than extrovert.
I do want to join you all again for rides, but am often not interested in how large the rides end up.
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Wow - That was fun - I love all the rabbit trail treads we forum folks weave :)
Okay, Well I started this post so I guess after two days of good banter and main different thoughts I have decided the words "System" is too rule like and structured. So, the new term I will go with is a simple "GUIDE".
My main objective was to help new riders understand pacing of the different people who lead rides with a without a route sheet.
If a newer rider to the group / MN-MSTA wanted to try out a group ride and they didn't have a GPS
and were new with looking at route sheets that they could follow a leader at a pace that they won't feel over their head causing safety concerns when they try to keep up and don't want to feel they might get lost or left behind.
If the are an experienced group rider then this guideline stuff doesn't matter because you already know who they like to ride with and can read a route sheet or take over as a leader at anytime, which is all good and fine.
I just thought instead of listing all the parameters when posting a ride that you intend to lead, you could put what pace you wanted to ride as an individual leader. If multiple groups were taking off after a pre-ride meeting each volunteer leader could say what pace they were going to ride the route at and then people could better decide if they want to stay in a group pace riding situation and know what to expect.
By all means the leader could change their pace at every fuel stop or after a lunch causing people who care that much to choose to stay in that group move to another or decide to take their route sheet and go at their own pace.
Obviously, I never dreamed this would be a leaders or the MN-MSTA liability to make a pacing statement at the start of a run and if that is a concern then don't use it.
Let's just ride, have fun and be safe.
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Vander - I was simply relaying an experience as a point of humor. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop taking things as always having a deeper meaning.
Oh I'm sorry, man... your humor was received.
My reply does read a bit harsh (unintentionally). I guess I just find myself defending MNSBR often, and that's kind of my canned rebuttal.
Apologies.
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Route sheets are, IMHO, dangerous as they take your focus off the road.
Following faster riders with a fear of getting lost IMHO is far worse. With a route sheet, you can at least pull over and study it. My (limited) route sheets usually have a phone number in case someone gets separated.
This thread confirms what I prefer, solo ride up to 4 similarly-minded riders. Reread the posts to see that everyone's suggestions are how to reduce stress, risk, etc.
I have read how much stress Lloyd experiences (and shares ;D) trying to heard a group safely through a ride, I'm out to ride to recharge my batteries. Part of that may be that I am more an introvert, than extrovert.
I do want to join you all again for rides, but am often not interested in how large the rides end up.
Well my last 4 rides I have done have been, 2 riders, 3 riders, 2 riders and 2 riders....I guess you wouldn't have to worry about the size of the "herd" being too large...
And I 100% agree it is far more dangerous to follow a group or idividual riding way faster than you are capable of or feel capable of than it is to glance at a route sheet or pull over and look at it.
edit***Lastly these past 4 rides with MN-msta members have not been stressful at all. But the weekday ride I went on last week with some customers( that happen to be mnsbr/zg/ta ) well thats another story.
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Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out.
What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet. Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions. Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.
Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace? I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups.
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The route sheet serves as a way to not get totally lost. It's a backup for times when you do become separated from the group or if you are not happy with the pace.
I can lead a group but I cannot make certain that group follows me at my exact pace through the entire route. Stuff happens along the way on a 300 miler. One of my late season rides (Die Hard Ride) would take us through Elk River and each of the three years I led a group, I lost people at Elk River through no fault of my own due to stop lights and congestion. The route sheet serves as a backup for those who get separated. "Ride your own ride" is not literally you are on your own, you can still chose to ride with a person leading the group. But it's a valuable backup in case you are separated or you decide the pace isn't to your style.
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You guys should see the stuff the ADV riders go though to get a group through the woods :P Leap-frog, Accordian, some sort of new round-robin 1/x strategy...
I sympathize with Tim and have alluded to some of what he says in my previous posts, but wholeheartedly agree with pkpk's statement that "'Ride your own ride' is not literally you are on your own, you can still chose to ride with a person leading the group. But it's a valuable backup in case you are separated or you decide the pace isn't to your style."
Leaders don't love it when people disappear (cuz they're not having fun, whaaa) and then bad-mouth them on the forums, and leaders don't like it when people crash behind them. Since leaders don't exactly how everyone is going to ride, the route-sheet and a little planning (a lot of planning for many rides) are there to hopefully get people through to the end of the ride safely. Speaking generally about "followers", once you know the leaders and the roads the route sheet is slightly less important (if you ride the same pace as the leader and are a jerk and never help slower riders out), but I still think that if you haven't been following along the route enough to either go forward or back from where you are, you are doing yourself no favors if you need to call for help, go back for help or bail out early or something like that comes up.
Like I said, I'm with Tim on "what's the point" of running a route by yourself and small talking at the stops, but unless the leader explicitly says they are going to wait for me (everyone) every time, I make sure I have a good route sheet and follow it even when I can see the group. If a ride doesn't have a route sheet I'd better know the group pretty well.
a.s.
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Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out.
What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet. Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions. Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.
Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace? I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups.
Absolutely nobody is disputing the fact that everytime your eyes are off the road for anything, including looking at a route sheet or GPS there is inherent danger involved and you significantly increase your risk of danger danger that time!
So let me make this comparison, my complex routes would have a person potentially looking down for some 2 seconds each time and having to do so perhaps 70 times on my 450-550 mile routes.....So for 2 minutes and 20 seconds you are riding "blind" or dangerously or wrecklessly or...........Certainly not a good thing, but you do have the option to pull over and study the route sheet. (This assumes you can't remember any of the turns past the next one and don't know the roads at all--completely a noob in riding where we ride)
-Option 2, the same 450-550 mile ride, and you are riding over your head to stay with the group (ie...100+ on the straights, panic braking into the turns in hopes of staying within sight) Well that would seem to me to be about 9-12 hours of riding dangerously or wrecklessly or........Certainly not a good thing (IMO far worse scenario), and you don't even have the option of pulling over to look at a route sheet to meet the group at the stop or anywhere, and some would not even know how to get home from anywhere they may pull over.
Your second paragraph is a bit of an exaggeration, but if that happens atleast you have the route sheet to make your merry way safely at YOUR pace.
Finally your comment about the organizers and setting up a slow, medium and fast paced group----well that takes volunteers, and ones who are willing to "ruin" their day by chapporoning around people unwilling to take responsibility of their own riding and lead themselves. Furthermore you have never showed up and led a group on any ride I have ever been on, and it is the vast majority of them, so who are you fooling with your statement "I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups." Certainly not me.
Lets just say a typical ride has 10 people on it, and we try to break it into slow, med, fast.....
To start you need the most skilled riders to "lead" because clearly the majority won't or are incapable of, or like you feel the routes are too challenging and too complex making them too dangerous. So now you have 3 riders out of 10 that should be and normally would be in the "fast" group having to decide who is going to be the babysitters and not get the chance to ride how they want to...(Gee you wonder why it is so hard to get volunteers to lead)
Well almost nobody wants to be in the "slow" group (ego, stigma or any number of reasons) so you have one of the most skilled riders taking 1 or 2 people on a ride and stopping and waiting and riding "slowly" and warning them of dangers in every turn and really just giving a guided babysitting tour....sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm !)
Then you only have 7 riders left, but lets 2 want to go "fast" so another leader takes these 2 on a "fast" pace, so this leader is riding how they want presumably as are the 2 followers, but the leader still has to keep them together and make sure he isn't too fast, isn't too slow, stops for fuel often enough, doesn't have to make too many U turns or deviate too far of course.....essentially still totally giving a babysitting tour ride just at a "fast" pace.............sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm !)
So now you have a group of 4 riders bringing up the "medium" paced group, so I could list off all the same shit, it is simply at a little "medium" pace............sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm)
So while all this sounds extremely negative and no fun. The reality of how rides are run is not this way. Typically we always end up waiting for "slow" people, the leaders watch their mirrors and ride according to the pace of the group, the leaders do make provisions for the members in the group (even to their own fun detriment)........so yeah I say again, this sounds like a ton of fun for leaders, (sarcasm) you say you will lead any group anytime, hey show up for a ride and you can ! You would be in the minority of attendees who are capable or willing to lead a group.
Finally, most of the rides where most of the people attending are of a same or similar skill set or same or similar speed ability or atleast are all capapble of riding at the "pace" we run on the roads we ride and if need be could find their way home or to the next stop via a route sheet or otherwise. Well that is how most of the rides go, because most of the rides have very familiar faces showing up to them.
I understand a "need" for some initiation of "new" riders to the group to see who they fit in with and to get aquainted with how rides are run and at what pace...( Oh wait I did 3 , get to know mn-msta rides last year and 2 this year, where I forced people to lead and navigate and ride at their won pace...slow or med or fast and the group followed them and then someone else led....The feedback I got from those who participated was all good--but it was a huge investment of my time--and tires and fuel---to do this)
-But some sort of rating system, well the shoe just doesn't fit anyone no matter how complex you make it.
I have an idea, show up for a "group" ride prepared to ride by yourself and self navigate and be responsible for yourself, if your pace of the day meshes with someone elses great, if not-you have a route and fantastic roads to ride on. Talk to people at the beginning of the ride (which means showing up atleast 1/2 hour early!) Have your bike prepared to go all day, be mentally and physically prepared to ride all day...You know common sense things you should know and expect. (the couple dozen mn-msta members I ride with regularly have no issues with any of these things, why should anyone else?)
LAstly, lastly---myself and the handful of members who routinely put on rides and "lead" are not here for everyone else to use and take advantage of our route making skills, our abilities to lead, our knowledge of the roads, and our abilitly to keep the "followers" relatively safe. We (or atleast me) are here for the joy of riding and to be able to do it with similarly interested and skilled riders....when the stress level or aggrevation level exceeds the fun level it is no longer appealing, and since so many realy so heavily on us "leaders" you damn sure better keep us around and enjoying it, or you will find yourself without the ability to tag along and "follow". This isn't a threat it is a reality, look how many former leaders never or rarely post up any rides any longer.
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Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out.
What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet. Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions. Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.
Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace? I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups.
Well almost nobody wants to be in the "slow" group (ego, stigma or any number of reasons) .......
There is absolutely zero stigma in being in the "slower" group. To say as such implies speed equates skill level, which IMO the two are not related.
IMO route sheets are the way to go on official MSTA rides. Ad hoc or nonposted rides are the only exceptions
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Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out.
What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet. Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions. Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.
Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace? I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups.
Well almost nobody wants to be in the "slow" group (ego, stigma or any number of reasons) .......
There is absolutely zero stigma in being in the "slower" group. To say as such implies speed equates skill level, which IMO the two are not related.
IMO route sheets are the way to go on official MSTA rides. Ad hoc or nonposted rides are the only exceptions
I agree that being in a "slow" group should not have any stigma or label placed on it, I am just saying it seems to since so few that should be in "that" group refuse to be in that group.....fear of being labeled, is that any better of an assumption?? ( I know far too many unskilled riders who ride triple digits regularly, I won't even start to name any, but the list surpasses 100 easily)
I also agree with your route sheet statement on official mn-msta rides and an adhoc or personal ride you can do what you want.
In the end, the commonality here is; everyone needs to "ride their own ride" and be self aware of the skills they pocess and the pace they are truly capable of running "safely" and then do that.
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I've been on on dozens of rides (albeit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/albeit) usually pretty small groups) and a "slow" group hasn't ever been even discussed - I'd say de facto stigma, or perhaps the leaders weren't willing to admit how fast they would really run (a de facto stigma the other way?). In fact I only recall one time when anyone explicitly volunteered to hang back (Six Chin / Chubblebeeks has my highest regard) to help a person who was way out of her league on a ride I was leading (regretably I didn't recognize that the process of improvement (shaking off the rust) wouldn't be complete enough by the time we got to the most technical sections). No one has ever discussed falling off the pace or leaving either...
Of course Ride Your Own Ride is a CYA, but the route sheet, mn-msta group ride reading (The Pace) and pre-ride understanding of the situation are tools to assist everyone, as opposed to lip service which helps no one (i.e. Ride Your Own Ride, but keep up so you don't get lost).
a.s.
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please kill this thread.........everyone is just repeating what has been said.
die thread, die.
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please kill this thread.........everyone is just repeating what has been said.
die thread, die.
+1
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please kill this thread.........everyone is just repeating what has been said.
die thread, die.
+1
to which Chris replied with what someoone said before - that made me smile, thanks.
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^ best post in this thread by far
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^ best post in this thread by far
really? you guys don't see the irony in a post asking people to stop posting? :)
....in before the lock
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ha, i hope for no lock, nothing but legitimate suggestions, questions and explanations offered so far (repetitive, yes, lock-worthy, no way).
a.s.
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I like the fact that people are thinking about this. The rides I lead are intended to be enjoyable for us oldsters but not boring for the younger folks. Scenery,Safety,Sanity w Curves! ::)GJ
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Look here! (http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,801.new.html#new)
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Well almost nobody wants to be in the "slow" group (ego, stigma or any number of reasons) so you have one of the most skilled riders taking 1 or 2 people on a ride and stopping and waiting and riding "slowly" and warning them of dangers in every turn and really just giving a guided babysitting tour....sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm !)
This was really hard to quote out of that whole text. :)
Anyway, I disagree with that statement. I've led plenty of slow groups that wound up being the majority of the riders who showed up. Sometimes it's really a matter of who shows up than the perceived speed difference to the faster groups. My pals from the early days of MN-sportbike tend to want to ride together. Or likewise, I'll ride with a slower group if someone like Brent is leading, because I know my day will not be boring when he is leading. I have rarely felt like I was "babysitting" slow people and well.....big deal if it works out that way. Some of us are out to enjoy the ride and sometimes there is enjoyment of helping new people learn how to group ride. The only time I get frustrated is when someone want's me to work out their fuel mileage for them. Seriously, you have to know your bike well enough to know how much fuel it carries and your range on a full tank.
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I was thinking about changing my oil last night. Then decided not to because I had no oil and also no oil filter.
So I guess I will wait.
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Did anyone see the season premiere of Two and a Half Men? Was pretty funny no?
Nothing like seeing Ashton's cheeks on most of his scenes. That guy seriously works out.
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Demi's private parts are very DEMAN-DING! :o
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Look here! ([url]http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,801.new.html#new[/url])
I love it....LOL
I also love the copy cat post of let the thread die becasue it is just repeating what others said already....LOL
Thanks for my brief bit of amusement today, now go back to your off topic oil change talk, tv shows and celeb parties and what have you---
PKPK, while you can disagree with my accessment, it doesn't change my mind or opinion or what I see regularly.
I too enjoy Riding with Brent and find it refreshing and fun, the few times I have ridden with you I have enjoyed it as well---so I am not calling you guys out as the "slow" group. And I have led plenty of "slow" groups and some of those people would surely say it was still too fast. So "SLOW" or "FAST" it all about perception.
Let me differentiate something for you guys---rides I have been on that we have had multiple leaders and called out a "fast" group and a "slow" group or whatever, the reality is all the groups are riding about the same pace(probably within 5 mph of each other)....only once can I recall a group actually having a significant speed differential from the other groups and that was one of the Slimey Crud rides last year and a bunch of zg/ta people showed up and Vince "led" them around at the kind of speed they tend to ride 100+ if you get my drift..We Medium group I led (pace riding about 70) still passed them before the first gas stop and they never caught up until Leland about 45 minutes after my "medium" group was already their and the "slow" group (also pace riding about 70) was already there as well.
Sorry Vince had to make my point.
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I have rarely felt like I was "babysitting" slow people and well.....big deal if it works out that way. Some of us are out to enjoy the ride and sometimes there is enjoyment of helping new people learn how to group ride.
I agree with pkpk 100% - We should be willing to just enjoy the ride and know that we are helping new people through the learning process of participating in group rides. This is the only way to grow the sport. I have noticed and heard from a reliable source that the ridership is down. We should be encouraging new people and making them feel welcome.
Otherwise it comes across as a group of elitist and we are too good or fast or experienced to hang with Newbie's. I never really felt that way because of my personality and when I came to my 1st ride with the MN-MSTA with pretty good skill's that I'm still refining each group ride.
BTW: pkpk thanks for being a great guy letting me work through my silly ego stuff - I now hang off my ST1100 to keep up on tight curves rather than drag pegs on the ground :)
Also - Thank you Ray916MN for giving me great advise, tips and so much help with tire issues and fuel flow stuff on the 9 day trip to the mountains in July.
I have lead allot of rides in the last 2 years with the Freedom Riders and I get bored sometimes when I want to go faster. I just wait at the turns and remind them to ride their own pace and enjoy the ride ;)
Lastly - Nice try gdawgs to change the topic - You should probably just start a new thread in the Off Topic area or not read these posts if it upsets you 8)
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We should be willing to just enjoy the ride and know that we are helping new people through the learning process of participating in group rides.
I'm trying to decide if I should be snarky and attend your next ride and request a much slower pace or point out that the typical leaders can only be a certain amount of "unselfish" in a single short season...
No matter. A lot of us have seen a lot of drama surrounding the fact that there aren't a lot of organizers and even fewer leaders willing to step up (we covered burnout already, right?). I'm no old-timer here, but I flat-out appreciate anyone willing to organize/lead a ride, and if I am able to tag along I have absolutely no preconceived notions about being catered too. If I (or anyone) needs catering, that should be brought up well before a pre-ride meeting.
Speaking of catering, I've only seen one person explicitly put together training rides; the iron fist, no BS, read your sheet, barely slow down for anything other than his ~200 mile range. Now maybe I need to go between the pace classification lines being offered on the Hill Country and Fall Colors rides (or better yet, attend a few (I wish)), but the way I see it one guy has gone way out of his way to bring people up, not chase them out -- in spite of his "bark" (shh, don't tell anyone). :D :P
Let me differentiate something for you guys---rides I have been on that we have had multiple leaders and called out a "fast" group and a "slow" group or whatever, the reality is all the groups are riding about the same pace(probably within 5 mph of each other)...
Can we talk more about this very interesting observation? If it's not actual speed that's causing "grouping", what do we think causes people to think of others as either "fast" or "slow"? I'm going to guess bidirectional "reputation" and "perception".
a.s.
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Let me differentiate something for you guys---rides I have been on that we have had multiple leaders and called out a "fast" group and a "slow" group or whatever, the reality is all the groups are riding about the same pace(probably within 5 mph of each other)...
Can we talk more about this very interesting observation? If it's not actual speed that's causing "grouping", what do we think causes people to think of others as either "fast" or "slow"? I'm going to guess bidirectional "reputation" and "perception".
a.s.
For me it is more about manageable group size. Preferrably less than 6 or 7 per group, ideally only 3 or 4...my prefference, others have their own number. That answers your "grouping" but not your question of "fast" or "slow". I am routinely called both, so....
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If I show up on my Harley and I ride it real fast am I still in the slow group? I do have a sport fairing on my purple one and a lower one on there too. So now when I get it up to those triple digits I need a stirring damper. Do you think they make one of those for my bike?
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Vince, if its a Dyna they do. I had one on my FXDXT.
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If I show up on my Harley and I ride it real fast am I still in the slow group?
Yes.