mn-msta.com
General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Ultra_Magnus on November 01, 2011, 08:20:00 PM
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Produce (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X922dbI_QQI#ws)
Feel free to pick it apart.
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Viewed.
Since you ask for input, I'll start with some questions.
How many years have you been riding?
How many miles each year?
Ever previously owned another big heavy liter bike?
What road were you on?
Ever ridden that road before at that speed?
Ever ridden with the rider directly in front of you?
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Viewed.
Since you ask for input, I'll start with some questions.
How many years have you been riding? 3
How many miles each year? 15k
Ever previously owned another big heavy liter bike? my other bike is vfr1200
What road were you on? arcadia ,95i think?
Ever ridden that road before at that speed? plenty of times
Ever ridden with the rider directly in front of you? Not THAT rider..... My biggest mistake...
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Wow, hard to watch the anti-freeze draining on the ground (like the bike's blood :( ).
First, I hope you are doing well with your healing.
I vaguely remember your other post. Can you remind me what happened? I hear your motor slowing before you hit the guard rail which confused me.
You seem to be saying that the rider in front of you somehow was part of the chain of events. That too confuses me.
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That is 95. Tough to say but it looks like you got on the brakes pretty good at 0:10 trying to check your speed so you didn't asspack the rider in front of you. The front looks like it may have started to wash since you start to get a little wiggle in the bars. Guessing that freaked you out sending you wide at which point you fixated on the guardrail. It looks like you bailed before you hit the guardrail or maybe the front washed completely out when you got onto the shoulder. What do you remember?
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It kind of looks like you weren't used to the rider in front of you, who slowed, or was carrying a slower speed then you expected, through the apex of the left hander. You then rolled off the throttle to avoid running up too close, drifted wide as bikes will do on trailing throttle and then eventually grabbed a handful of brake and mashed the guardrail. Close?
What's your recollection of the chain of events?
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Looks like that little white thing you hit skidded out the front tire.... Could have been a little farther from the guy in front of you. Pray you healing well :)
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It kind of looks like you weren't used to the rider in front of you, who slowed, or was carrying a slower speed then you expected, through the apex of the left hander. You then rolled off the throttle to avoid running up too close, drifted wide as bikes will do on trailing throttle and then eventually grabbed a handful of brake and mashed the guardrail. Close?
What's your recollection of the chain of events?
I didnt get knocked out so i remember everything.
So the rider in front if me guns it and takes off. I follow at what i thought was a reasonable distance. I see the turn coming up so i start braking to set my entry speed.
The rider in front of me enters the turn and is still braking hard as im preparing to lean and hit the throttle . Im like wtf, why are you braking in the turn still (U can see his brake light is on the whole time)? So im trying to brake smooth as i can to avoid ass ending him, and keep the bike from standing up. Of course this is making me go a little wide. No problem. Then i hit the mcdonalds cup and lost my front wheel.
Game over.
As far as target fixation. I pretty positive i didnt fixated the guardrail at all, i thought i was gonna pull through no problem. It is possible i fixated the cup for a split second, but its hard to say. The moment i saw it (in the corner of my eye) i wiped.
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Oh yea and im healed up good. I can walk around with a slight limp without a cane.
I had no injuries other than the broken femur. Thank god for full leathers :-P
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I've done it myself, it looks like you fixed and froze. When the brain locks up it's a tough one to get out of.
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To be honest, you were following too close. At about 4 seconds there is a sign on the right showing the upcoming curve. I could barely count "one thousand one" from the point of where the rider ahead of you passed it to where you passed it. At the indicated speeds you were running, you were too close and ran out of room to maneuver. Also looked like you might have target fixated on something, not sure what because I couldn't see the angle of your head.
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This person is not a member of the MN-MSTA !--They crashed on a non MN-MSTA ride and have never actually participated in a MN-MSTA ride. He like others are a screen name only....What you see in this and other videos from people who also are not members of the MN-MSTA does NOT reflect the riding style or beliefs of the vast majority of actual MN-MSTA members who do not ride this way.
Following distance.
Regardless if the guy in front of you can't ride for shit or to save his own life, you need to keep enough following distance, you clearly did not.
With his brake light on all the way from the (Recommended turn speed sign) to the end of the video--I guess one could wonder about his use of brakes-but still you need to ride the road and conditions.....not the rider in front of you.
Following Distance !! (There certainly were lots of things you could have and should have done prior to the crash, even in those last 2-3 seconds it was easily avoidable.... But for starters, RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE and FOLLOWING DISTANCE)
Given you guys had ridden together that day that far (Arcadia) already, you should have already been painfully aware of of that riders perpensity to go super fast in a straight line and posted + 10? in anything except WOT sweepers--IMO it was forseeable and predictable, Vince was on that ride and he even told his passenger to "get ready" (she is a nurse) long before that mishap.....on those types of rides where "bad" & "stupid" is nearly a given, it is best to avoid riding in those groups....
Looking at the slow decent of the indicated speed-it doesn't appear you were braking much until you were already running wide, if at all.
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"Ever ridden with the rider directly in front of you? Not THAT rider..... My biggest mistake..."
While I see this as a mistake, it certainly was not the biggest one YOU made that day !
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You should definately consider some further rider training. To me it doesn't matter how long you've been riding or how many miles each season. If all that time and miles were spent without the purpose of improving your skills (and I don't just mean "going faster") then they are worthless. There are plenty of riders out there who've been riding for 30 years and have tens of thousands of miles, and they still suck at riding. You don't get better just because you are out riding.
This crash should have never happened, I can't find a single reason you crashed other than lack of skills and judgement. I wished we had footage from behind you to further examine what happened. Video distorts things sometimes but your speed seemed low for this corner and to me it seemed like there was plenty of room to manage your speed/following distance/ and still make the corner.
This all sounds pretty harsh I'm sure but my intent is just to help you focus on the problem and avoid this from happening in the future. Seeing these types of accidents is frustrating because they are so easily avoidable. Honestly, if you couldn't negotiate this situation what will you do when a deer jumps out, or a car pulls out in front of you. I don't see anything wrong with what the rider in front of you was doing, he was riding his own ride!
I'm glad you have healed and this wasn't worse. Hope you get back to riding and become a better rider as a result of this experience.
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Because I was right there a PM sent.
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You should definately consider some further rider training. To me it doesn't matter how long you've been riding or how many miles each season. If all that time and miles were spent without the purpose of improving your skills (and I don't just mean "going faster") then they are worthless. There are plenty of riders out there who've been riding for 30 years and have tens of thousands of miles, and they still suck at riding. You don't get better just because you are out riding.
This crash should have never happened, I can't find a single reason you crashed other than lack of skills and judgement. I wished we had footage from behind you to further examine what happened. Video distorts things sometimes but your speed seemed low for this corner and to me it seemed like there was plenty of room to manage your speed/following distance/ and still make the corner.
This all sounds pretty harsh I'm sure but my intent is just to help you focus on the problem and avoid this from happening in the future. Seeing these types of accidents is frustrating because they are so easily avoidable. Honestly, if you couldn't negotiate this situation what will you do when a deer jumps out, or a car pulls out in front of you. I don't see anything wrong with what the rider in front of you was doing, he was riding his own ride!
I'm glad you have healed and this wasn't worse. Hope you get back to riding and become a better rider as a result of this experience.
agreed. IMO 100% operator error.
Sorry, but you posted this and asked for opinions. :-\
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You should definately consider some further rider training. To me it doesn't matter how long you've been riding or how many miles each season. If all that time and miles were spent without the purpose of improving your skills (and I don't just mean "going faster") then they are worthless. There are plenty of riders out there who've been riding for 30 years and have tens of thousands of miles, and they still suck at riding. You don't get better just because you are out riding.
This crash should have never happened, I can't find a single reason you crashed other than lack of skills and judgement. I wished we had footage from behind you to further examine what happened. Video distorts things sometimes but your speed seemed low for this corner and to me it seemed like there was plenty of room to manage your speed/following distance/ and still make the corner.
This all sounds pretty harsh I'm sure but my intent is just to help you focus on the problem and avoid this from happening in the future. Seeing these types of accidents is frustrating because they are so easily avoidable. Honestly, if you couldn't negotiate this situation what will you do when a deer jumps out, or a car pulls out in front of you. I don't see anything wrong with what the rider in front of you was doing, he was riding his own ride!
I'm glad you have healed and this wasn't worse. Hope you get back to riding and become a better rider as a result of this experience.
agreed. IMO 100% operator error.
Sorry, but you posted this and asked for opinions. :-\
Well there was definately rider error. But if it wasnt for the debris (as u can see in video) i still belive i would have made it through the turn without issue. The smashed cup is what took my tire out.
I hope my posts dont sound like im trying to make excuses for what happened, but i was on the bike and remember everything crystal clear. I appreciate all the input in this thread so far.
But yea i defintely will be adjusting my riding style to allow for alot more room for error (following distance especially).
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It's to bad we all can't just have a close call and learn form our mistakes.
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I'm happy to hear you are healing well. I hope you are ready in spring time for a full year of riding.
I have a few more thoughts...
1) a mcdonalds cup would never take away enough traction to cause a crash - unless you were on the brakes and the cup got caught under the stopped tire and you slid on the cup - which is highly unlikely. The speed of your spinning wheel would have tossed it aside in a split second. Really no different than a tar snake's momentary interruption. If you were at the edge of you ability or traction (both within your control) then that momentary skip and catch of traction would have started the accident. You were NOT a victim of a cup on the street!!!
2) why couldn't you go around the other rider rather than crashing? His bike was not taking up the whole lane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X922dbI_QQI#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X922dbI_QQI#ws)] I often try to remind myself that the solution is often going around an emergency rather than panicking.
3) have you seen anything on this site about "Ride your own ride"?! I think your video is a unfortunate example of what happens if you don't do that.
I really admire your braveness for posting this up to get feedback. Even in a true accident (all items out of your control), many people will still point out things you could have done differently.
Have you set some new rules for yourself based on what you learned in this crash?
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Well there was definately rider error. But if it wasnt for the debris (as u can see in video) i still belive i would have made it through the turn without issue. The smashed cup is what took my tire out.
I hope my posts dont sound like im trying to make excuses for what happened, but i was on the bike and remember everything crystal clear. I appreciate all the input in this thread so far.
But yea i defintely will be adjusting my riding style to allow for alot more room for error (following distance especially).
My though is if the cup did not take you down the white line would have.
It's nice for you in two ways 1st you're alive and on the mend 2nd you have camera footage of the event, thus helping you to replay it in your head (to some extent anyway).
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I'm happy to hear you are healing well. I hope you are ready in spring time for a full year of riding.
I have a few more thoughts...
1) a mcdonalds cup would never take away enough traction to cause a crash - unless you were on the brakes and the cup got caught under the stopped tire and you slid on the cup - which is highly unlikely. The speed of your spinning wheel would have tossed it aside in a split second. Really no different than a tar snake's momentary interruption. If you were at the edge of you ability or traction (both within your control) then that momentary skip and catch of traction would have started the accident. You were NOT a victim of a cup on the street!!!
on a lean and slowing down hard which he was doing I hitting anything on the front would cause it wash out. By watching the video you can see the bike go down right as the front tire hits it.
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Have you set some new rules for yourself based on what you learned in this crash?
A definate "Hell Yea".
1. Better following distance
2. Get better braking skills
3. Don't ride a bike setup for a 150lb rider that hard
Off the top of my head.
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A definate "Hell Yea".
1. Better following distance
2. Get better braking skills
3. Don't ride a bike setup for a 150lb rider that hard
Off the top of my head.
Fantastic list! Write 'em down for a reminder for the first spring ride. Its amazing what we all forget over the long MN winter. I put painter tape on my tank with notes for the spring (like "fresh tires").
on a lean and slowing down hard which he was doing I hitting anything on the front would cause it wash out. By watching the video you can see the bike go down right as the front tire hits it.
Unfortunately, the cup wasn't the first precipitiating event, just the final straw in the chain of events.
following too close
braking hard
loosing line
hit cup
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A definate "Hell Yea".
1. Better following distance
2. Get better braking skills
3. Don't ride a bike setup for a 150lb rider that hard
Off the top of my head.
Fantastic list! Write 'em down for a reminder for the first spring ride. Its amazing what we all forget over the long MN winter. I put painter tape on my tank with notes for the spring (like "fresh tires").
on a lean and slowing down hard which he was doing I hitting anything on the front would cause it wash out. By watching the video you can see the bike go down right as the front tire hits it.
Unfortunately, the cup wasn't the first precipitiating event, just the final straw in the chain of events.
following too close
braking hard
loosing line
hit cup
Pretty much it in a nutshell
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It's to bad we all can't just have a close call and learn form our mistakes.
Word. I do think that some of the folks above are spot on talking about the ability for us to learn more from these incidents with video, something that wasn't even an option 5 years ago.
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not to keep going over this but I slowed the video down.
Now I don't think you hit the cup at at all, looks like you fixated on the cup.
At the 11:09 mark you have a good line and are not crowding to much and you're not gaining on the other bike.
At the 11:22 mark, the cup comes into view, hard to see in the video but I am sure you saw it.
at the 12:03 mark it looks like the front of bike is over the fog line and to the right of the cup.
at the 12:08 mark the bike differently looks like its between the fog line and the rail
at the 12:12 mark the bars suddenly turn to the left, I don't know if you tried to get off the bike at this point to avoid hitting the guard rail or just simply tried to turn instead of counter steering (a very common thing to do)
at the 12:15 mark the bars are fully turned and the bike is falling
I think you have learned a lot from this, was it avoidable probably. was it the "fault" of the cup I don't think so after slowing it down, I do think you fixated on the cup (as I think most people would do, you know a change in the road)
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You should definately consider some further rider training. To me it doesn't matter how long you've been riding or how many miles each season. If all that time and miles were spent without the purpose of improving your skills (and I don't just mean "going faster") then they are worthless. There are plenty of riders out there who've been riding for 30 years and have tens of thousands of miles, and they still suck at riding. You don't get better just because you are out riding.
This crash should have never happened, I can't find a single reason you crashed other than lack of skills and judgement. I wished we had footage from behind you to further examine what happened. Video distorts things sometimes but your speed seemed low for this corner and to me it seemed like there was plenty of room to manage your speed/following distance/ and still make the corner.
This all sounds pretty harsh I'm sure but my intent is just to help you focus on the problem and avoid this from happening in the future. Seeing these types of accidents is frustrating because they are so easily avoidable. Honestly, if you couldn't negotiate this situation what will you do when a deer jumps out, or a car pulls out in front of you. I don't see anything wrong with what the rider in front of you was doing, he was riding his own ride!
I'm glad you have healed and this wasn't worse. Hope you get back to riding and become a better rider as a result of this experience.
agreed. IMO 100% operator error.
Sorry, but you posted this and asked for opinions. :-\
Well there was definately rider error. But if it wasnt for the debris (as u can see in video) i still belive i would have made it through the turn without issue. The smashed cup is what took my tire out.
I hope my posts dont sound like im trying to make excuses for what happened, but i was on the bike and remember everything crystal clear. I appreciate all the input in this thread so far.
But yea i defintely will be adjusting my riding style to allow for alot more room for error (following distance especially).
I'm glad to hear you are making a list to put into action next year.
Just to keep you thinking. Above you stated "..But if that cup...", don't blame the cup. You shouldn't have been riding where that cup was laying in the first place. Consider other options that would have kept you out of that debri. That outside part of the lane can be loaded with debris, some not so visible like dirt and sand. Again just trying to get you thinking in order to help, do you think it is possible that you could have adjusted your speed while still holding your line? Based on the video I would say yes. That's something you should think about and practice in a safe enviornment so you can perform when necessary. That technique is critical and will pay off in many situations.
And secondly, just like the cup, don't blame the bike setup. I've seen plenty of people ride bikes in ways I thought they were not capable. Stay focused on rider input like what you have listed as #1 and #2.
Believe me, I'm not immune to mistakes...I've made some and crashed because of it. The reason I engaged in this thread was because I really feel what's help keep me safe was focusing on what I did in those situations and what I needed to fix.
Good to see you on here with an open mind. I really hope you heal 100% and enjoy many years of riding in the future!!
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It's to bad we all can't just have a close call and learn form our mistakes.
Oh, yes!
Unfortunately the majority of motorcycle crashes are our own fault. Mine certainly was.
It's painful watching the video. I'm very glad to hear you are healing.
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Unfamiliar bike (your wife's not yours)
Following too close
Different brakes (regular separate front and rear brakes as opposed to the linked brakes on the bike you usually ride) in addition to a different bike than you're used to
Too aggressive riding for a bike you weren't that familiar with.
My guess - applied the front brake only, which stood the bike up, couldn't get yourself to release the brakes and turn, ran wide and hit the guardrail. I wouldn't be surprised if riding a linked braked bike has got you relying on the front brake lever allot more than you would if you regularly rode a bike with separate front and rear brake systems. At some point when the bike, started to run wide because you were on the front brake, letting off the brake and/or applying the rear brake might have saved your bacon, by allowing you to turn in more.
I ride different bikes quite often and even though I've done thousands of miles on each bike, it generally takes me a full day of riding or more to adjust completely to riding a different bike. Until I get back into the swing of things, on a different bike, I'm a more conservative rider. Gotta unlearn what I've been doing on a different bike and relearn what works best with the bike I'm on. When things start to get pear shaped, things can often come down to familiarity with what works, and when you do something reflexively that you think should work (eg. using the front brake to slow down) and it doesn't it is very tough to figure out what to do.
Could be all wet, but that's my guess.
Lastly, I agree that the cup was virtually a non-factor in the accident, except to the degree it may have been another distraction to your focus.
Glad you're healing is going well and you've been back on a bike.
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Just some points here in the video. If you look closely maybe about the 11 sec you will notice the bars shack. This is when he fell off the bike. He landed close to the center line. The cup is a McDonald's box. The bike is upside down in the rail. In fact the steering head bearings wear laying on the ground. The bike was on its side before it crossed the white line. It also went into the rail almost straight on and took 4 guys to pull it out.
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I agree with Ray, switching from bike to bike takes a while to get used to the other bike again, especially if you haven't ridden one of them in a while.
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My guess - applied the front brake only, which stood the bike up, couldn't get yourself to release the brakes and turn, ran wide and hit the guardrail. I wouldn't be surprised if riding a linked braked bike has got you relying on the front brake lever allot more than you would if you regularly rode a bike with separate front and rear brake systems. At some point when the bike, started to run wide because you were on the front brake, letting off the brake and/or applying the rear brake might have saved your bacon, by allowing you to turn in more.
This is definetly a stong possibility. I wish i could remember exactly what my rear brake was doign at the time, but the fact i know exatly what i was doing with my front leads me to belive not much.
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Cups, boxes, road paint, strange bike, no linked brakes, rider braking in a corner etc, etc.....
Yet not many talk about the extreme speed coming down a hill on a curvy road with guardrails. No wonder you're at the whim of so many variables.
Just one of the old guys here, kindly reminding you young guys to ride the motorbike on the public roads to smell the flowers. Go to the racetrack to get the speed out of your system.
BTW, kudos for having the courage to "put it out there". Not many would have the balls to do this and I admire that.
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I was riding BP with Vince and we were behind you, I saw the accident from behind. It was scary to watch and after watching your bike get wedged upside down into the gaurd rail I figured you were a dead man.... I'm so glad you're healed up well and will learn from this. It all happened so fast but I can say this, following distance was too close for almost everyone on that ride that day.
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I agree with what the majority has been saying on this topic.
I also am glad to hear you are healing well & applaud you for posting this.
It's good that you are learning from it...I know I did from my crash a couple years ago!!
I wish I had video of that one....would probably have learned more than I did.
As a side note....this is EXACTLY why I won't prefer not to ride with the person that was in front of you.
I've heard far too many times that his riding has either caused a crash or almost did.
I do agree that if everyone rides their own ride that shouldn't be a problem...him included.
It's common knowledge he rides that way so people should know to keep their distance.
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There may be another factor at play in this incident. Everytime I've ridden with or seen Ultra_Magnus on a bike it has been his Honda. He may not ride the Triumph much and perhaps he isn't as familiar with its handling and braking characteristics. His Honda has a different braking system from his Triumph. It could be that when faced with a rider unexpectedly slowing in front of him on a downhill set of curves with a guardrail on his right and debris in the road that his brain got a bit of sensory overload, defaulted to what it knows best which would be Honda controls, and he maybe applied the incorrect amount of pressure on the brakes. Pure speculation on my part, but I know when I would switch from my Honda 954 to my Ducati there was a huge difference in handling and brake feel. Since I put 10 times as many miles on my Honda I really had to rethink my riding when I got on the Ducati in the twistys, especially in downhill twistys like that section of WI 95 that so many of us ride hard. My Honda didn't have linked brakes but they were very sensitive. My Ducati has brakes that require more effort. Both bike have fine brakes, they just have a very different feel.
I'm thinking the OP might have finessed his Honda thru this tricky situation
without incident. Not because the Honda has a better or worse braking
system but because the rider was more familiar with it.
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I'm thinking the OP might have finessed his Honda thru this tricky situation
without incident. Not because the Honda has a better or worse braking
system but because the rider was more familiar with it.
+1
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Nothing more to add than thanks for sharing.
I waded up my first 'real' bike, a Sabre V65 due to all the reasons discussed above, rode it too hard before I was used to it, and I didn't have the skills anyways to handle what that bike threw at me after accelerating for 6 seconds... that was 11 or 12 years ago and I haven't been down since, many times I tell myself I'm glad I crashed it to teach myself a lesson.
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There may be another factor at play in this incident......
Yeah, well if you read the whole thread...... :)
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i've watched it a few dozen times now and based solely on that am going to vote target fixation for a few reasons. first, the rider in front made it through without hanging off, with no extreme leaning and apparently minimal braking, you almost made it through and he was pulling away from you right before you fell, and it appears that you were barely speeding and barely slowing down. again, pure speculation on my part. perhaps the decrease in speed from 70 (tops, maybe more like 65) to 59 when you stopped (*ouch!*) was more influential than i think it was, but like a lot of crashes (including mine, also on a bike i was unfamiliar with), it seems like eyes up and a little gas and you'd have come out no problem.
i am very glad you are recovering and also am glad you got it on tape, i wish all of my painful exploits would have been filmed...
a.s.
p.s. i spent a lot of time behind that gentleman at MAM this spring at my first track day (beginner / first-timer, the R6 he was on pulled like a rocket), but immediately after the first time I nearly ran him over I made sure not to make that mistake again; i varied my speeds / following distance somewhat, but i really remember making it a point to take different lines so i wouldn't end up at the same place as he was. of course the track is tons different, and i was working to set up a pass either on the brakes or coming out of turn since we couldn't pass in turns and i couldn't keep up on the straights, but i just thought i'd throw that in there.
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I agree with what the majority has been saying on this topic.
I also am glad to hear you are healing well & applaud you for posting this.
It's good that you are learning from it...I know I did from my crash a couple years ago!!
I wish I had video of that one....would probably have learned more than I did.
As a side note....this is EXACTLY why I won't ride with the person that was in front of you.
I've heard far too many times that his riding has either caused a crash or almost did.
I do agree that if everyone rides their own ride that shouldn't be a problem...him included.
It's common knowledge he rides that way so people should know to keep their distance.
Mark, your a real piece of work. There's much I can say, but not worth my time.
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First of all, I'm glad Mike is healing up well and it could have been worse from the damages to the bike.
I'm guy in front.
So, I just was notified about this thread. Don't think that didn't reply on purpose. Feel free to ask the MOD when I last logged on before tonight. There was a rumor going on after the crashed, that I cause Mike to crash. After the crashed, I sent Mike a text saying that I had to brake at that corner because I also saw the same trash that he saw on that part of the road. Anyway Mike never replied, and I never followed up.
FWIW, I've ridden dirt bikes for many years. Going on six years riding sportbike, ~40k total miles(I rarely ride my bikes to work, so most of the miles are on the twisties). This is my 7th bike(Ninja 250&500, zx-6r, r6s, r6, r1, and s1000rr), and one crash in Arkansas. I've never claim to be an expert and I've taken six track days to better my riding skills.
Mike- You did ask for people opinions and I hope you got your answer. Dave was behind me and you speed up and passed him up right before the curve. Also, before we got to this point, you almost crash once already.
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now this is getting interesting ;)
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now this is getting interesting ;)
Start the pop corn making machine.
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Yeah, well if you read the whole thread...... :)
Okay, my bad. I was too lazy to read the whole thread. For future reference dis me on facebook where I won't see it ;D
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Ge, I think you are taking some criticism too personally. It isn't a big secret you are super fast in a straightline and (for some) painfully slow through the turns...
Not to pile on, but....
Despite your riding resume ( I don't think any of those 6 trackdays have "improved" your street riding), well you said it - you aren't an expert. So admitting that may be a good step towards actually improving your riding, instead of working on improving your "speed".
FYI--I do not blame you for Mikes crash. Were you a factor? -definitely.
But the crash itself is all on Mike. The "Debris" had nothing to do with anything, it seems to be just an excuse to justify the crash or whatever....The speed, well I guess that depends on skill level---the "triple black diamond" riders of this group routinely take that series of corners faster than you guys were going.....so it a skill level question (and I have no idea besides what I have seen or read of Mikes skill level--based solely on this video, this crash, this thread though, I would say he too has way allot to work on)
So instead of getting all butt hurt and offended by what someone is saying, well perhaps figure out why that is their perception....Why it is lots of peoples perception. Everyone can improve on their riding regardless of how long they have ridden or how many miles ( I have more than 25 times as many miles as you plus over 6 times as many years and I still work on improving my riding skills) So if you think 6 years and 40,000 miles somehow makes you a "good" or "safe" rider you have already lost the battle of learning and developing as rider---your bike choice has already hindered you, don't let your ego hinder you even further.
I realize you want to go out on "group" rides and "keep up", and prior to owning a bike with TC and ABS you could not, and now that you rely solely on those things to "save you" from your own riding, and to "keep up".....well that is what I am getting at when I say your bike is already hindering your development as a rider...Any Joe can whack a throttle open if they know TC will "save" them.....Any Joe can slam on the brakes if they know ABS will "save" them--that isn't skill--that is a recipe for disaster.
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As long as I am on a roll here,
I by no means am saying everyone needs to ride the same way.
Obviously some people are always going to ride like "tools"--no doubt some think I ride like a "tool" (and at times I do), so it is all about perception.
For anyone who is happy at the plateau they have reached in their skills level, well that is their problem (just know your skills diminish with time without practice--so your plateau is erroding away...)
For anyone who wants to ride on the road like it is your own personal racetrack, well again that is all on you.
Speaking for myself (like always) I certainly don't want to ride with these types of riders, and it is my perception of the mn-msta and the MSTA that those aren't the people who they are seeking out either. But WTF do I know.
Finally if you are all butt hurt about some criticism for something you openly share on a forum--you better get off the forums. There is always going to be someone you don't like, someone who doesn't like you, people who think differently. Perhaps it isn't even that they don't like you, perhaps they are just using an opportunity to make a point?
If you are set on sticking around, you have 2 choices--grow some thick skin and take it (hopefully learn and grow so your butt sore will go away) or continue whining like a little baby and continue to blame everyone else with your woe is me song....
This isn't aimed at any one person in particular-----so read into it whatever you desire.
When I direct it at someone in particular, believe me you will know it !
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Seven bikes in 6 years-- I wish I had that kind of disposable income.
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.......it appears that you were barely speeding and barely slowing down. again, pure speculation on my part. perhaps the decrease in speed from 70 (tops, maybe more like 65) to 59 when you stopped (*ouch!*) was more influential than i think it was, but like a lot of crashes
I saw 82 on the speedo as he was exiting the first mild curve. The point I made (earlier) was that sort of speed on Wis 95 is begging for all sorts of things to go wrong. Not to mention, Joe Law comes around the corner and you're going to be making a donation to the county.
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As a side note....this is EXACTLY why I won't ride with the person that was in front of you.
I've heard far too many times that his riding has either caused a crash or almost did.
I do agree that if everyone rides their own ride that shouldn't be a problem...him included.
It's common knowledge he rides that way so people should know to keep their distance.
In my opinion, the rider in front can not cause an accident except in a few situations. If the rider in front crosses the center line, gets hit by an oncoming car and gets flung back into the following rider or causes the car to cross the center line into the following rider, or the rider in front suffers a catastrophic failure which dumps anti-freeze or oil on the road surface which the following rider can not avoid then the rider in front is at fault.
Of course the rider in front can ride erratically (the opposite of smoothly) and possibly diminish the riding fun of the following rider if the following rider follows too closely. The fix to riding with people who don't ride the same way as you do, is almost invariably more distance between you and them. Just like the fix to being around people you don't like is more distance, so it is with riding.
.... There was a rumor going on after the crashed, that I cause Mike to crash....
In my opinion, the notion within a group that the rider ahead can cause a crash behind them by braking is group idiocy. If in a group, you ever hear people suggest this, steer clear of them, as it is prima facie evidence they are an idiot. Groups who believe that a braking rider ahead can be responsible for an accident for a rider behind them should be avoided as they don't get what it means to be responsible for riding your own ride and are clearly willing to blame others for their riding mistakes. People who blame others for their mistakes are not people who learn anything from their mistakes.
Riding your own ride means you ride how you see fit. If you want to hit the brakes you hit the brakes. You should not have to worry about anyone ass packing you or being forced to run off the road under any circumstances. That's their problem. That's what maintaining a safe following distance is about. If someone in front of you is stopping and you hit them or run off the road trying to avoid them, you were by definition following too close. It could be you're following too close for conditions, for the performance level of your bike or the performance level of your riding, but it all amounts to the same thing, you were following too close and the only person responsible for following distance is you.
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I agree, that the rider in front is not 100% "responsible" for the crash, but if that rider slows down unexpectedly even if you have a safe distance, this can still not be enough, causing the following rider to change his line this is were the experience and skill and luck of the following rider comes into play.
.... I sent Mike a text saying that I had to brake at that corner because I also saw the same trash that he saw on that part of the road....
From the video you were HARD on the brakes well before the cup could be seen, and it was no where near your line you were riding on or over the yellow.
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As a side note....this is EXACTLY why I won't ride with the person that was in front of you.
I've heard far too many times that his riding has either caused a crash or almost did.
I do agree that if everyone rides their own ride that shouldn't be a problem...him included.
It's common knowledge he rides that way so people should know to keep their distance.
In my opinion, the rider in front can not cause an accident except in a few situations. If the rider in front crosses the center line, gets hit by an oncoming car and gets flung back into the following rider or causes the car to cross the center line into the following rider, or the rider in front suffers a catastrophic failure which dumps anti-freeze or oil on the road surface which the following rider can not avoid then the rider in front is at fault.
Of course the rider in front can ride erratically (the opposite of smoothly) and possibly diminish the riding fun of the following rider if the following rider follows too closely. The fix to riding with people who don't ride the same way as you do, is almost invariably more distance between you and them. Just like the fix to being around people you don't like is more distance, so it is with riding.
.... There was a rumor going on after the crashed, that I cause Mike to crash....
In my opinion, the notion within a group that the rider ahead can cause a crash behind them by braking is group idiocy. If in a group, you ever hear people suggest this, steer clear of them, as it is prima facie evidence they are an idiot. Groups who believe that a braking rider ahead can be responsible for an accident for a rider behind them should be avoided as they don't get what it means to be responsible for riding your own ride and are clearly willing to blame others for their riding mistakes. People who blame others for their mistakes are not people who learn anything from their mistakes.
Riding your own ride means you ride how you see fit. If you want to hit the brakes you hit the brakes. You should not have to worry about anyone ass packing you or being forced to run off the road under any circumstances. That's their problem. That's what maintaining a safe following distance is about. If someone in front of you is stopping and you hit them or run off the road trying to avoid them, you were by definition following too close. It could be you're following too close for conditions, for the performance level of your bike or the performance level of your riding, but it all amounts to the same thing, you were following too close and the only person responsible for following distance is you.
This will be my first post here and typically try to stay out of others business but this deserves an AMEN!!!
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Also, before we got to this point, you almost crash once already.
Dont worry Gely, i dont blame you for the crash. Were u a factor? of course. But thats my fault, not yours.
About the "almost crashing" earlier. No i hit a tar snake. I had total control.
lol wut (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o806Vx2VIFQ#ws)
Heres the vid of that.
Why did i go wide in this video? Someone decided to blast up on the inside of the curve on me.
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I'm not sure where to begin with the riding in the 2nd video...not just yours but both bikes ahead of you leave a little to be desired too. I would tend to beleive that the person "inside" did so after you were already too wide and well clear of their path. If they were not its another prime example of following too closely.
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I'm not sure where to begin with the riding in the 2nd video...not just yours but both bikes ahead of you leave a little to be desired too. I would tend to beleive that the person "inside" did so after you were already too wide and well clear of their path. If they were not its another prime example of following too closely.
Naw they were in my peripheral before i went wide. Cams just not pickin it up. But yea, defintely a prime example of riding too close :-)
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He (Gely) was NOT hard on the brakes. He only slowed from about 80 to 65 before the crash and the guy in front was pulling away already at 65. That's only a decrease of 15mph over the course of two long turns on highway 95. Take any modern sportbike and get hard on the brakes and you will watch the speedo RAPIDLY decrease from 70mph.... I can probably scrub off from 80-40 in 2 seconds on my 660lb bike.
I'm assuming he has one of those VERY annoying blipping LED brake lights?? The lumens on all of those are far below what incandescents output. Because it is not solidly on. The fact that he barely lost any speed leads me to think it was gently trail braking while the rider behind who crashed was setup to accelerate through the whole turn. Neither is wrong, they just can't occur at the same time in the same location. I trail brake often on my FJR, usually only scrubbing off 5-10mph leading into the apex and it helps to decrease my trail and sharpen my steering by lightly compressing my front end. I took a thousand turns today in WI and MN, sometimes I enter one or two a bit faster than I want. Usually I am accelerating through a turn, but not always. However, this is not a skill that one becomes comfortable with easily. You have to have a lot of confidence and not fixit on your front wheel and stand it up.
Any more references to the leading rider doing anything that in any way contributed to this crash is absurd.
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Great posts from Ray and Lloyd above. So what's happening in this second video? You hit a tar snake and were simultaneously pushed wide by someone "passing" on the inside?
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Oops, looks like cbreater got there before I did.
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No the camera doesnt pic up led brake lights well, has something to do with the frequency of the leds and the frame rate of the camera. They were solid to the human eye.
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I agree, that the rider in front is not 100% "responsible" for the crash, but if that rider slows down unexpectedly even if you have a safe distance, this can still not be enough, causing the following rider to change his line this is were the experience and skill and luck of the following rider comes into play. ....
A safe following distance has to account for an unexpected slow down.
Here's a story to illustrate, it happened in Arkansas, but it could easily have happened in the areas we ride in.
I was on 16 in AR, a great road which runs from east to west about 80 miles long. Fairly tight and twisty on the east end and open sweepers on the west end. I picked up a tail of two locals. They weren't too tight on my tail, but they weren't 2 seconds back either. I came over a hill and saw deer and broke hard. One rider came by me on the right and the other on the left. Needless to say, after this incident they increased their following distance significantly.
I hope that everyone who reads this doesn't need to come by me on the brakes to figure out that their following distance needs to accommodate the unexpected.
Of course, we all sometimes ride behind people and think "why the hell are they slowing down" or "why the hell are they on the brakes". Even though 9 times out of 10 or even 999 times out of 1000 they might be on the brakes needlessly in our opinion that's twenty twenty hind sight. It is pretty much impossible to tell why someone is on the brakes until after the fact, and after the fact is generally too late when there is a real reason for someone to be on the brakes.
Following distance is for the unexpected. If we knew what to expect we wouldn't need any following distance.
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Following distance is for the unexpected. If we knew what to expect we wouldn't need any following distance.
Agreed. I defintely learned my lesson. Ive been riding 3 years, 45k miles, and this is my first crash, so i thought i had a good distance. Nothing like a broken femur to put thing is perspective.
I look at this is my first and final lesson. If i break this femur again im gonna be in alot of trouble with the metal rod in my leg.
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No the camera doesnt pic up led brake lights well, has something to do with the frequency of the leds and the frame rate of the camera. They were solid to the human eye.
ah, that's good to know, i was trying to figure out what was the deal with the light and with the talk of slowing down as i couldn't tell when it was on (assumed it was a modulated tail light). i agree with matt, and the video shows it to be true, hardly any speed was reduced by either rider, and ge didn't move right at all like i'd expect if a non-expert was really were dropping anchor mid-turn.
a.s.
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thanks for the info on the brake light/camera misfit, figured something was up after seeing the same spotty light on the 2nd vid.
but anyways, leave your 5/15 watt tail bulbs in people, those pinkish LED bulbs don't work as well, despite what the Ebay listing tells you. :)
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In my opinion, the rider in front can not cause an accident except in a few situations. If the rider in front crosses the center line, gets hit by an oncoming car and gets flung back into the following rider or causes the car to cross the center line into the following rider, or the rider in front suffers a catastrophic failure which dumps anti-freeze or oil on the road surface which the following rider can not avoid then the rider in front is at fault.
Agreed, any one else that disagrees, well all I can say is.........
Laughing dog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaksbV77c3M#)
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A safe following distance has to account for an unexpected slow down.
Here's a story to illustrate, it happened in Arkansas, but it could easily have happened in the areas we ride in.
I was on 16 in AR, a great road which runs from east to west about 80 miles long. Fairly tight and twisty on the east end and open sweepers on the west end. I picked up a tail of two locals. They weren't too tight on my tail, but they weren't 2 seconds back either. I came over a hill and saw deer and broke hard. One rider came by me on the right and the other on the left. Needless to say, after this incident they increased their following distance significantly.
I hope that everyone who reads this doesn't need to come by me on the brakes to figure out that their following distance needs to accommodate the unexpected.
Of course, we all sometimes ride behind people and think "why the hell are they slowing down" or "why the hell are they on the brakes". Even though 9 times out of 10 or even 999 times out of 1000 they might be on the brakes needlessly in our opinion that's twenty twenty hind sight. It is pretty much impossible to tell why someone is on the brakes until after the fact, and after the fact is generally too late when there is a real reason for someone to be on the brakes.
Following distance is for the unexpected. If we knew what to expect we wouldn't need any following distance.
My questions is this, how far is a safe distance? my definition of a safe distance would be enough room to avoid hitting the bike in front of you, by going around them and or braking. Using my logic (which may or may not be right) I would say the guys in AR were "safe", now if you logic is they should stop behind you then they were unsafe.
My thought is this if the definition of safe is stopping behind somebody that has stopped, the gap "should" be about 4 to 5 seconds for most riders (some it should be more), under most riding conditions, 1 second to realize the bike in front is stopping and 3 to 4 to get the bike to stop safely.
He (Gely) was NOT hard on the brakes. He only slowed from about 80 to 65 before the crash and the guy in front was pulling away already at 65. That's only a decrease of 15mph over the course of two long turns on highway 95. Take any modern sportbike and get hard on the brakes and you will watch the speedo RAPIDLY decrease from 70mph.... I can probably scrub off from 80-40 in 2 seconds on my 660lb bike.
looking at the video at the 9:15 mark Gely's brake light comes on and is still on at 12:13. At the start of the corner Ultra_Magnus' bike was going 69 at the point of the crash his bike was going 54 and still gaining on the bike in front of him. when the two are entering the corner (using the road sign) the two bikes are about less than 1 sec apart (too close, but that horse has been kicked), then Gely hits the brakes (9:15), the gap starts to close up very fast, you can watch Ultra_Magnus get right up on him at 10:21, you can see the bars shake (as Vince pointed out) Ultra_Magnus was probably hard on the brakes at this time but still gaining ground on Gely at this point they were about .06 sec apart, this is also when Ultra_Magnus went down (12:13). so that is why I say Gely was hard on the brakes, yes it was only 15mph on Ultra_Maguns' bike but Gely was able to scrub off more (18mph is my guess). I still don't blame Gely for the crash or braking to hard, I am just pointing out one more factor that helped the crash happen.
Were Gely or Ultra pushing the edge of what the bike can do for braking? No
Were Gely or Ultra on to much brake for road riding? probably not, I say this because I try to ride the pace and doing so I tend not to use much brake, but instead set my speed coming into the corner. This does cause problems for me "running" up on bikes in front of me, I do need to work on that more.
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My questions is this, how far is a safe distance? my definition of a safe distance would be enough room to avoid hitting the bike in front of you, by going around them and or braking. Using my logic (which may or may not be right) I would say the guys in AR were "safe", now if you logic is they should stop behind you then they were unsafe.
My thought is this if the definition of safe is stopping behind somebody that has stopped, the gap "should" be about 4 to 5 seconds for most riders (some it should be more), under most riding conditions, 1 second to realize the bike in front is stopping and 3 to 4 to get the bike to stop safely.
A safe distance is being able to stop behind the rider in front of you. Anything short of being able to stop behind the rider in front of you means your counting on being able to avoid the rider in front of you. If I'm the rider in front of you, this means I have to worry about getting ass packed from behind if somehow you aren't able to avoid, It also means that I have to think twice about trying a last minute swerve around, as my swerve could be the open hole you are aiming for because you can't stop behind me.
Average reaction times are ~400ms. Anyone paying attention should have no problems achieving a 1 second response time. If you've got 2 seconds following distance, you've still got a 1 second gap. The next question you've got to consider is whether the guy in front of you can out stop you.
If you're riding a Goldwing and they're riding a sportbike, they can probably out stop you. If they cover their front brake and you don't, they can probably out stop you. If they do allot of track days and/or race and you don't, they can probably out stop you. Adjust your following distance accordingly.
The preceding is about being able to stop before hitting or coming abreast of a stopping bike in front of you. This does not cover you for cresting a hill and finding a tractor trailer blocking the road. Piling into someone who hits a stopped vehicle after cresting a hill, is a matter for over driving your field of vision, not following distance.
Typically I find a full 2 second following time works, but the higher the speeds, the more following time I try to maintain.
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"Average reaction times are ~400ms. Anyone paying attention should have no problems achieving a 1 second response time. If you've got 2 seconds following distance, you've still got a 1 second gap. The next question you've got to consider is whether the guy in front of you can out stop you"
You still have to consider that if you were both traveling at the same rate of speed, and that lead bike got a second on the brakes jump on you (likely it would be more) that lead bikes rate of speed even after the following bike is on them (brakes) for all they are worth is still lower than the following bike........Thus the trailing bike is still closing the gap on the lead bike all the way til it stops--which could easily be in excess of 165' at just 60 mph ( given a 1 second head start on the brakes for the lead bike)
So at 70 mph, it is over 200'
and at 90 mph it is over 300'
Some magazine took their testers out and did this exact test in the 90's....They had collisions (ass packing) in their first location--they then went to a drag strip where there was room to go side by side
So I would call 200' a bare minimum at anything over 50 mph.
Do I ever see this, nope. Will I ever see this, probably not-some putz further back sees a 200+' opening and they feel the need to pass you (like they somehow will be going any faster by following the bike in front of you at a closer distance....) I have heard numerous times of people actually trying to tell me 50' is more than enough.
Following too close has many other ramifications as well-for one it severly limits your line of sight-which in turn lengthens your reaction time by making you not see it as soon as you could
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You still have to consider that if you were both traveling at the same rate of speed, and that lead bike got a second on the brakes jump on you (likely it would be more) that lead bikes rate of speed even after the following bike is on them (brakes) for all they are worth is still lower than the following bike........Thus the trailing bike is still closing the gap on the lead bike all the way til it stops--which could easily be in excess of 165' at just 60 mph ( given a 1 second head start on the brakes for the lead bike)
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I don't think the closing rate is a material consideration until you get to higher speeds.
At 60 mph a 2 second gap is 176 ft. Assuming both bikes stop in the same distance, if the second bike starts braking 1 second later than the first bike it stops 88 ft behind the first bike.
There is still a potential for ass packing based on differences in the rate of stopping at different speeds. If one bike achieves 90% of its stopping in the first second of braking while the other achieves 10%, even though their total stopping distances are the same, a collision during stopping becomes much more likely. At 60 mph though, the test panel data for most bikes show stopping distances in the 100-125ft.range ('98 VFR 108ft, 2003 ST1300ABS 124ft). 88ft is a significant gap relative to these stopping distances. 88 feet is 88% of the shortest stopping distance. As stopping distances increases disproportionately with speed, I'd think more like 180-200 ft stopping distance @80 mph and a 1 second gap yields 117 ft the likelihood of collisions due to differences in stopping rates increases. 117 feet is 65% of the shortest stopping distance. So as speed increases and stopping distances increase disproportionately the percent extra stopping distance you get for a given time gap gets smaller. Which is why it makes sense to increase following distances as speed increases. You need to maintain your stopping cushion as a percentage of total stopping distance to guard against collisions due to differences in rates of deceleration at different speeds.
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.......it appears that you were barely speeding and barely slowing down. again, pure speculation on my part. perhaps the decrease in speed from 70 (tops, maybe more like 65) to 59 when you stopped (*ouch!*) was more influential than i think it was, but like a lot of crashes
I saw 82 on the speedo as he was exiting the first mild curve. The point I made (earlier) was that sort of speed on Wis 95 is begging for all sorts of things to go wrong. Not to mention, Joe Law comes around the corner and you're going to be making a donation to the county.
[/quote].......it appears that you were barely speeding and barely slowing down. again, pure speculation on my part. perhaps the decrease in speed from 70 (tops, maybe more like 65) to 59 when you stopped (*ouch!*) was more influential than i think it was, but like a lot of crashes
I saw 82 on the speedo as he was exiting the first mild curve. The point I made (earlier) was that sort of speed on Wis 95 is begging for all sorts of things to go wrong. Not to mention, Joe Law comes around the corner and you're going to be making a donation to the county.
pkpk- If you think 82mph is too fast for Wis 95, I can only conclude that you have not ridden with people here much.
Also, before we got to this point, you almost crash once already.
Dont worry Gely, i dont blame you for the crash. Were u a factor? of course. But thats my fault, not yours.
Mike I appreciate that you cleared that up. If you didn't remember, I stood in the way to block the sun from your face while you were being help, until I was told to go away by the Medics. Also, turned off your camera and removed it from your bike in case the cops wanted to look at the video clip.
[quot
Finally if you are all butt hurt about some criticism for something you openly share on a forum--you better get off the forums. There is always going to be someone you don't like, someone who doesn't like you, people who think differently. Perhaps it isn't even that they don't like you, perhaps they are just using an opportunity to make a point?
If you are set on sticking around, you have 2 choices--grow some thick skin and take it (hopefully learn and grow so your butt sore will go away) or continue whining like a little baby and continue to blame everyone else with your woe is me song....
This isn't aimed at any one person in particular-----so read into it whatever you desire.
When I direct it at someone in particular, believe me you will know it !
e author=pkpk link=topic=861.msg8740#msg8740 date=1320627800]
Objurgate- I'm not sure why you think ^^^. The only thing/person I'm pissed at is Mark. He made a remark that he would never ride with someone like me, but he does and has ridden with me more than a few times.
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Mike- Thanks for putting this up for discussions. You got people talking and actually giving good advice here. Were all learning something from your unfortunate accident.
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Nothing like a broken femur to put thing is perspective.
I look at this is my first and final lesson. If i break this femur again im gonna be in alot of trouble with the metal rod in my leg.
Pain does have a way of focusing the mind. :)
While not always easy to do, it is always worthwhile thinking through what happened. Great attitude.
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Also, turned off your camera and removed it from your bike in case the cops wanted to look at the video clip.
Mike- Were all learning something from your unfortunate accident.
Can't resist quoting this for prosperity.
Gely, what you are saying doesn't make sense to me. You say you braked hard for a McDonalds container in the road and that that is what caused Mike to go down, yet you didn't want an officer to see confirmation?
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I think he didn't want them to see 80mph, which could give them a case to add insult to injury with careless or reckless driving tickets, if not speeding at a minimum.
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i think that using 82mph as a starting point is very generous. from what i could see the speed when he started leaning into the left turn was closer to 70.
a.s.
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pkpk- If you think 82mph is too fast for Wis 95, I can only conclude that you have not ridden with people here much.
I've ridden with Ray, Tony, Vince, etc for over 10 years now. Ridden with Tony longer than that. I've done over 80 on that road myself. There are reasons why I stopped doing so. Just because you wind up doing 80 with other riders only means you haven't had the pleasure of learning my lessons. State highways and busy roads are not good places to do 80+. Coming down the hill into the twisities outside Arcadia at 80+ leads me to believe you were doing faster speeds prior to this. The fact that you are having to ride the brakes through the first hard corner leads me to believe you were caught off guard and probably lulled to some extent by the speed. Go ahead and rationalize all you want. But you might not get away with that corner braking next time and wind up lowsiding into Joe Public on a right hander.
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You still have to consider that if you were both traveling at the same rate of speed, and that lead bike got a second on the brakes jump on you (likely it would be more) that lead bikes rate of speed even after the following bike is on them (brakes) for all they are worth is still lower than the following bike........Thus the trailing bike is still closing the gap on the lead bike all the way til it stops--which could easily be in excess of 165' at just 60 mph ( given a 1 second head start on the brakes for the lead bike)
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I don't think the closing rate is a material consideration until you get to higher speeds.
At 60 mph a 2 second gap is 176 ft. Assuming both bikes stop in the same distance, if the second bike starts braking 1 second later than the first bike it stops 88 ft behind the first bike.
There is still a potential for ass packing based on differences in the rate of stopping at different speeds. If one bike achieves 90% of its stopping in the first second of braking while the other achieves 10%, even though their total stopping distances are the same, a collision during stopping becomes much more likely. At 60 mph though, the test panel data for most bikes show stopping distances in the 100-125ft.range ('98 VFR 108ft, 2003 ST1300ABS 124ft). 88ft is a significant gap relative to these stopping distances. 88 feet is 88% of the shortest stopping distance. As stopping distances increases disproportionately with speed, I'd think more like 180-200 ft stopping distance @80 mph and a 1 second gap yields 117 ft the likelihood of collisions due to differences in stopping rates increases. 117 feet is 65% of the shortest stopping distance. So as speed increases and stopping distances increase disproportionately the percent extra stopping distance you get for a given time gap gets smaller. Which is why it makes sense to increase following distances as speed increases. You need to maintain your stopping cushion as a percentage of total stopping distance to guard against collisions due to differences in rates of deceleration at different speeds.
Even the most skilled and prepared riders take over .6 seconds to get the brakes applied and over 1.1 seconds to have them at their fulll potential (some magazine testers stats from the 90's)--these guys knew what was coming and ride allot, on alot of different bikes and likely have better skills than your "average" motorcyclist
So if the bike/car truck whatever in front of you is already at their maximum braking potential when you realize it and it takes you another 1.1 seconds to get to yours (mind you, you will still be closing on them if both braking vehicles and riders abilities are somewhat equal......forever-til you both stop or the lead bike gets off the brakes---they scrubbed lots of speed before the following bike even got to maximum decelleration due to braking)
If you consider the average sportbike stops from 60 in under 120 feet (60 mph is at 88 feet per second?)
So the following bike closed up 88+ feet on the lead bike and would still be traveling at a speed of atleast 30 mph faster than the lead bike-simply based on that 1.1 second delay in the follower getting to maximum braking potential ( this is a rough estimate for simplicity, simply based off 88 feet second at 60 mph--it actually would be slightly less based on decreasing speed)
Then you are both equally at 100% of the braking abilities, yet the lead bike is traveling about 30 mph slower than the following bike---so another 44+ feet would be ate up by the time the lead bike stopped--( again rough estimate based on the 30 mph and 44 feet per second....the actual distance would be slightly less based on the decreasing speed)
Now you have the lead bike already stopped and the following bike still traveling at something less than 30 mph.......so another 30 feet before the following bike stopped.......
88' + 44' + 30'= 162'
So that is atleast 160 feet @ 60 mph--provided the following bike and rider are on top of their game and use the full potential of the bikes brakes and are alert and aware to spot the lead bike slowing almost immediately------------When does that ever happen, never !
****--it isn't just the 1+ second delay in the follower getting on the brakes to maximum potential.......if you look at it that way only---okay 1 second delay= 88'......followers stopping distance at 60 mph= 120', leaders stopping distance at then 30mph = 30' (his speed after 1 second of braking)...........88'+ (120'-30') =88' + 90' = 178', both bikes and riders being equal****
So use the numbers any way you want, 162' or 178'----in either scenario a 2 second gap at 60 mph is only 176'--it is a near miss or you hit...
Since a 2 second following distance doesn't happen by the vast majority of riders (what I see regularly is that most (80%+) think 50' is more than adequate--I actually had one argue that point on a ride a few weeks ago).....You clearly know what this outcome would be.
This scenario only gets worse (in a hurry) as speeds increase, and considering a typical ride is 70+, well you get the idea.......minimum "safe" distance should be 200'+ @ 60........300'+ for the riding we really do and that is nearly never given, some putz further back sees that and they think you are too slow and somehow passing you and riding on someones ass at 50' is going to have them going "faster" or having more "fun"........sure if you can't ride your own ride, or need that lead bike close enough to you to cue off of them for your entry speed, corner speed, exit speed exit.........basically for the under skilled, under knowledged riders. Those are the riders who would actually have even worse reaction times and longer braking distances to boot-so they are in even more jeopardy than two highly skilled riders riding far too close together.
So I don't care if you are a professional road racer, taken 3 dozen world championships and have 10 bazillion miles under your belt---at 50' you will pass the lead bike (or hit it), at anything under say 150' following distance it is a given you will pass the lead bike (and that is at 60 mph, when do we ride 60?) --I could complicate this with further scenarios (lead bike rarely brakes all the way to a stop etc...), but why??? 200' should be a bare minimum, 300' should be the practiced following distance on these rides-since speeds are higher than 60.
Does anyone want to follow me at 50' while traveling at 60 mph and I'll slam on the brakes (as if a child ran out in front of me) and see if you can stop short of me? (I'll drive my 4.5 ton truck for my safety, you pay for my bumper and tailgate damage, deal?.... and you know that truck will take about 200' to stop, so you should have plenty of room , right? Are you willing to risk bodily injury to find out?)
Ge, "When I direct it at someone in particular, believe me you will know it !"
" This isn't aimed at any one person in particular-----so read into it whatever you desire."
Could I have spelled it out any clearer?
PKPK---yep I agree...Just because you "can" run at 80+ through a turn (or in this case to a turn) doesn't mean you should.....
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pkpk- If you think 82mph is too fast for Wis 95, I can only conclude that you have not ridden with people here much.
I've ridden with Ray, Tony, Vince, etc for over 10 years now. Ridden with Tony longer than that. I've done over 80 on that road myself. There are reasons why I stopped doing so. Just because you wind up doing 80 with other riders only means you haven't had the pleasure of learning my lessons. State highways and busy roads are not good places to do 80+. Coming down the hill into the twisities outside Arcadia at 80+ leads me to believe you were doing faster speeds prior to this. The fact that you are having to ride the brakes through the first hard corner leads me to believe you were caught off guard and probably lulled to some extent by the speed. Go ahead and rationalize all you want. But you might not get away with that corner braking next time and wind up lowsiding into Joe Public on a right hander.
Speed was not excessive prior to this turn, as we were stopped on E. There was some confusion at the corner of E and 95, some people wanted to go left at 95 and do the short loop and others wanted to go right on 95.
Here's a link to the crash spot(B)
http://g.co/maps/k3hux (http://g.co/maps/k3hux)
Well then you know Vince, Ray and tk better than I. So, your comment about 82mph being too fast wast meant for everyone. I thought that was direct at me specifically, because Vince, Ray, and tk have taken that 95 way faster than I.
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This thing on spacing is kind of new to most. And what I mean by this is when I was a teenager we were told when we rode together with friends that you road side by side even in turns. I think I road like this until the MSF started. Then came staggered riding. Following distance was even new to cars back in the 60's. The new media would talk about it telling you to be one car length for every 10 mph. Now days you see almost every one riding staggered in a group with out even thinking about it. So I think talking about it as often as we do and in more time we will keep more of a safe distance back with out even thinking about also. As far as speed goes, for myself I use to ride WOT between anything. One reason I got so many tickets in the past. Now that I pace ride, stop laughing, I get less tickets and everything lasts longer on the bike as well. I do this now riding the snowmobile and brakes and belts last a lot longer. Sometime I turn into a squid again. It's hard to get rid of old bad habits sometimes. Reading Lloyd's post I almost got the calculator out, but very true.
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I've ridden with Ray, Tony, Vince, etc for over 10 years now. Ridden with Tony longer than that. I've done over 80 on that road myself. There are reasons why I stopped doing so. Just because you wind up doing 80 with other riders only means you haven't had the pleasure of learning my lessons. State highways and busy roads are not good places to do 80+. Coming down the hill into the twisities outside Arcadia at 80+ leads me to believe you were doing faster speeds prior to this. The fact that you are having to ride the brakes through the first hard corner leads me to believe you were caught off guard and probably lulled to some extent by the speed. Go ahead and rationalize all you want. But you might not get away with that corner braking next time and wind up lowsiding into Joe Public on a right hander.
I agree, just because you can does not mean you should, I am guilty at doing this as think most member on here are.
Ray -- Thank you for your input, I agree the definition of "a safe distance" is the following bike needs to be able to stop in a line with the bike in front of them without hitting them or changing there line.
I have to agree with Objurgate (it may have been all the fancy numbers) I think for most of us with moral braking skills at 70pmh (which is mostly the pace for MSTA rides), a minimum of 4 sec needs to be observed, which I don't think I have ever seen and very rarely have I seen 2 sec. Take away for next year as a group we need to check each other and don't be offend if if somebody tells you to back off, it for everybody safety.
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For the riders involved in this group, what was the motivation to ride so close? Pretty clear the increased following distance increases safety, so there must be something else swaying that equation in the other direction? I get it when racing and even at track days when you're moving around a slower rider to get some open track, but street riding I've never felt the need to do this since I've always been able to find a way to ride the the speed I want to just by backing off a bit in the straights to increase distance to the rider in front of me. Then it doesn't matter if they park it in the corners, I can use the space I opened up to ride the pace I want to through the fun stuff, then open the space back up again in the straights.
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For the riders involved in this group, what was the motivation to ride so close?
I asked this question to a group of riders one time, why do you have to ride so close together? The answer was "its fun". I then countered with what's so fun about being so close together that if the guy in front makes a mistake or has to hit the brakes suddenly that you are going to hit him, be injured or quite possibly killed. That doesn't sound like fun to me. I got the usual deer in the headlights response that I didn't know what I was talking about. I no longer ride with them.
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For the riders involved in this group, what was the motivation to ride so close?
... I no longer ride with them.
I've been on mn-msta rides with some of the best and it's a rare moment when there are "adequate" following distances throughout the group.
I can think of lots of reasons to ride closer than we should, but "habit" is probably the strongest, and the fact that we don't accurately measure the actual distance (covered a bit in the Riding Safe thread).
by the way, the math in *this discussion* is what they were trying to teach us in calculus -- and you thought you'd never use it :P :D
a.s.
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by the way, the math in *this discussion* is what they were trying to teach us in calculus -- and you thought you'd never use it :P :D
a.s.
If they would have taught it in practical matters like this we all would have done better :) :P
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learned this video was shot with a gopro. people with them have an idea of distances and how deceiving these are. you can be a length or two back and look like its 10 lengths. found that interesting.
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Even the most skilled and prepared riders take over .6 seconds to get the brakes applied and over 1.1 seconds to have them at their fulll potential (some magazine testers stats from the 90's)--these guys knew what was coming and ride allot, on alot of different bikes and likely have better skills than your "average" motorcyclist
So if the bike/car truck whatever in front of you is already at their maximum braking potential when you realize it and it takes you another 1.1 seconds to get to yours (mind you, you will still be closing on them if both braking vehicles and riders abilities are somewhat equal......forever-til you both stop or the lead bike gets off the brakes---they scrubbed lots of speed before the following bike even got to maximum decelleration due to braking)
If you consider the average sportbike stops from 60 in under 120 feet (60 mph is at 88 feet per second?)
So the following bike closed up 88+ feet on the lead bike and would still be traveling at a speed of atleast 30 mph faster than the lead bike-simply based on that 1.1 second delay in the follower getting to maximum braking potential ( this is a rough estimate for simplicity, simply based off 88 feet second at 60 mph--it actually would be slightly less based on decreasing speed)
Then you are both equally at 100% of the braking abilities, yet the lead bike is traveling about 30 mph slower than the following bike---so another 44+ feet would be ate up by the time the lead bike stopped--( again rough estimate based on the 30 mph and 44 feet per second....the actual distance would be slightly less based on the decreasing speed)
Now you have the lead bike already stopped and the following bike still traveling at something less than 30 mph.......so another 30 feet before the following bike stopped.......
88' + 44' + 30'= 162'
So that is atleast 160 feet @ 60 mph--provided the following bike and rider are on top of their game and use the full potential of the bikes brakes and are alert and aware to spot the lead bike slowing almost immediately------------When does that ever happen, never !
****--it isn't just the 1+ second delay in the follower getting on the brakes to maximum potential.......if you look at it that way only---okay 1 second delay= 88'......followers stopping distance at 60 mph= 120', leaders stopping distance at then 30mph = 30' (his speed after 1 second of braking)...........88'+ (120'-30') =88' + 90' = 178', both bikes and riders being equal****
So use the numbers any way you want, 162' or 178'----in either scenario a 2 second gap at 60 mph is only 176'--it is a near miss or you hit...
You're analysis is flawed.
Unless the testing procedure for stopping distances is based on the brakes being preloaded the distance time needed to go from no brakes to full brakes is included in the stopping distance of 120'.
While it is true that the delay in reacting to the bike in front you means that the bike in front of you will be traveling at a lower speed, when the following rider gets on the brakes, you have not included in your analysis the distance it took the lead bike to go from 60 mph to 30 mph. As stopping distances increase disproportionately with speed, this distance is guaranteed to be 60' or greater.
The analysis is really much simpler than you make it.
60mph=88ft/sec.
2 sec. =178 ft difference.
Given a 120 ft stopping distance from 60 mph, the lead bike will stop no sooner than 298' from where the following bike is when the lead bike first starts braking. The following bike has 2 seconds to begin executing a magazine style braking test from 60 mph.
Lastly a reaction time of 1.1 seconds for an anticipated panic stop is hard to believe. At 60 mph, this implies the bike travels 96.8 ft before braking occurs and which would mean after the full braking occurs a bike can stop in less than 30' from 60 mph. The majority of reaction time is clearly already included in the stopping distance. It may not translate to full braking, but as soon as the brake lever is pulled and the brake light signals braking, the bike begins braking and slowing. You can not treat the time to full braking as if no braking is occurring and it is hard to imagine how the large majority of this time and distance is not already incorporated into the total stopping distance.
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i get that we are disagreeing (generally, as a group), but i'm not really clear as to what the point of contention is? is it just the math? or is ray saying that a following distance much shorter than lloyd talks about would be sufficient or the other way around?
riddle me this: what's the point of staggered riding ** out on the open road ** if appropriate following distances are maintained?
a.s.
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i get that we are disagreeing (generally, as a group), but i'm not really clear as to what the point of contention is? is it just the math? or is ray saying that a following distance much shorter than lloyd talks about would be sufficient or the other way around?
riddle me this: what's the point of staggered riding ** out on the open road ** if appropriate following distances are maintained?
a.s.
Lloyd and I are disagreeing on whether 2 seconds at 60 mph is a safe following distance. We agree on everything, except for the math/logic of determining whether it is a safe distance or not. Lloyd's analysis leads him to believe it is too close, my analysis leads me to believe it is okay.
Staggered riding is actually a formation which supposedly allows closer safe following distances. Generally people say in a staggered formation on straights that a 2 sec spacing to the bike in front of you and 1 sec spacing to the bike in the other tire track is okay. Personally I kind of like 2 seconds to the nearest bike irrespective of formation, but that is another discussion.
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Hmm, you guys keep saying Lloyd post, but I don't see his posting here. Wondering if there's something wrong with my browser? I normally don't shut my computer down, but did a browser refresh/reboot and still not seeing his post.
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fair enough, although it seems like we're all in the same ball park. i'll contend that staggered formation is foolish-looking and irrelevant at 176-200' spacings. I think it's easy to underestimate how far that is.
a.s.
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Objurgate == Lloyd for the time-being.
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For the riders involved in this group, what was the motivation to ride so close?
Well you had to be there. A large group, all young, all male, great piece of road and we where going to ride it twice, and every one is on a sport bike. Get the picture. This all equals what.
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For the riders involved in this group, what was the motivation to ride so close?
Well you had to be there. A large group, all young, all male, great piece of road and we where going to ride it twice, and every one is on a sport bike. Get the picture. This all equals what.
Someone crashing (getting an ambulance ride)---just like all those types of rides.
"or is ray saying that a following distance much shorter than lloyd talks about would be sufficient or the other way around?
riddle me this: what's the point of staggered riding ** out on the open road ** if appropriate following distances are maintained?"
I am saying longer following distances are needed than Ray is..........but what difference does it make when people are routinely following at less than 50', usually less than 25'...........
I will re offer for anyone to follow me @ 50' and I'll slam on the brakes unexpectadly-who here wants to risk their health and bike to prove me wrong.... ( I practice quick stops plenty, so I already know the outcome, thus I will be driving a truck and you can be the ambulance getter or ditch dweller)
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Staggered riding is actually a formation which supposedly allows closer safe following distances. Generally people say in a staggered formation on straights that a 2 sec spacing to the bike in front of you and 1 sec spacing to the bike in the other tire track is okay. Personally I kind of like 2 seconds to the nearest bike irrespective of formation, but that is another discussion.
One problem comes up when people ride staggered on the straight and then ride single file through a twisty section. What was a 2 second gap to the bike in front of you becomes a 1 second gap as the rider from the other track moves into the same trajectory you are riding. When people are riding close to each other, probably the last thing they want to do (as the road gets fun) is to slow down and let the previous rider get ahead. For that reason, I stay furhter back even when riding in a staggered group. I've even been known to be invisible and not even on the same ride :-p
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Well then you know Vince, Ray and tk better than I. So, your comment about 82mph being too fast wast meant for everyone. I thought that was direct at me specifically, because Vince, Ray, and tk have taken that 95 way faster than I.
Yep, and they know where I stand on this. They also know better. I'll quote Vince on a line he gave a few messages later, "One reason I got so many tickets in the past. Now that I pace ride, stop laughing, I get less tickets and everything lasts longer on the bike as well. I do this now riding the snowmobile and brakes and belts last a lot longer. Sometime I turn into a squid again. It's hard to get rid of old bad habits sometimes. "
I can give him credit for trying. :)
My point remains this....no one (that I saw) has brought up speed as a contributing factor here. Fine...you guys are confident that you can go into that first corner doing 70, but still need to stand on the brakes right through the corner and and another one loses the front end. A whole list of mitigating factors were given, except for speed. But where is the error margin when you most need it?
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Objurgate == Lloyd for the time-being.
Ah, got it, haven't been here for awhile. I was wondering why I haven't seen him commenting, thought he might be on vacation.
I personally think its a great discussion, as it got everyone thinking about following distance. I normally leave more distance between me and the guy in front than most people.
thanks for the info on the brake light/camera misfit, figured something was up after seeing the same spotty light on the 2nd vid.
but anyways, leave your 5/15 watt tail bulbs in people, those pinkish LED bulbs don't work as well, despite what the Ebay listing tells you. :)
It's not some cheap Ebay brake light. It's a stock.
Just because I took today off from work, I made a quick video clip of my light here.
http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1 (http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1)
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It's not some cheap Ebay brake light. It's a stock.
Just because I took today off from work, I made a quick video clip of my light here.
[url]http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1[/url])
so, it always flashes like that when you're not "on" the brake?
That is distracting and would be annoying IMHO to ride behind. I would want it to be just either "on" or "off".
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No the LED frequency just makes it look like that. BMW knows how to do LED's right, the aftermarket replacements are usually a joke.
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My point remains this....no one (that I saw) has brought up speed as a contributing factor here. Fine...you guys are confident that you can go into that first corner doing 70, but still need to stand on the brakes right through the corner and and another one loses the front end. A whole list of mitigating factors were given, except for speed. But where is the error margin when you most need it?
yeah, I just went through the posts (quickly) and did not see on mention of SPEED, which was defiantly a factor, we all seamed to pile on the close riding but nothing about the speed.
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Curious as to how this accident is related to Calculus (that is, rate of change)?
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Curious as to how this accident is related to Calculus (that is, rate of change)?
Derivative of speed, gives you acceleration/ deceleration.
It's not some cheap Ebay brake light. It's a stock.
Just because I took today off from work, I made a quick video clip of my light here.
[url]http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1[/url])
so, it always flashes like that when you're not "on" the brake?
That is distracting and would be annoying IMHO to ride behind. I would want it to be just either "on" or "off".
To the human eyes, the LEDs are solid.
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It's not some cheap Ebay brake light. It's a stock.
Just because I took today off from work, I made a quick video clip of my light here.
[url]http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1[/url])
so, it always flashes like that when you're not "on" the brake?
That is distracting and would be annoying IMHO to ride behind. I would want it to be just either "on" or "off".
To the human eyes, the LEDs are solid.
must be a BMW thing or the camera, my R1 LED tail light does not show up like that on the GoPro Hero.
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It's not some cheap Ebay brake light. It's a stock.
Just because I took today off from work, I made a quick video clip of my light here.
[url]http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/J6qUTy9huQw?hd=1[/url])
so, it always flashes like that when you're not "on" the brake?
That is distracting and would be annoying IMHO to ride behind. I would want it to be just either "on" or "off".
To the human eyes, the LEDs are solid.
must be a BMW thing or the camera, my R1 LED tail light does not show up like that on the GoPro Hero.
Yea it differnent brand leds run at different freqs. Also frame rate you are running on the camera can make a difference (60fps vs 30fps)
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There's not much for me to add to this discussion other than to say this. Always remember that the law considers motorcycles "motorized vehicles", with most of the laws that apply to cars applying to us as well.
Watch the video (or imagine any scenario you want to for purposes of this example) and imagine the motorcycles are cars instead of motorcycles. It paints a very different picture of the events, doesn't it? The law would look at both versions the same way.
Any time we are operating above the speed limit, we are operating outside the law. Given that, we are judged even more harshly by the law (and should be). Now, I'm not passing judgement on any behavior expressed in the video. Most of the old-timers here know I used to run HWY 95 at a much faster pace than what's shown in the video but I always kept it in the back of my mind that if I f*ck up, it's on me.
Several years ago I organized a ride that turned out to be quite large. I "lead" the first group of 6 or so riders and we were wicking it up pretty hard. 2 in my group passed me and sprung out ahead at even a faster clip. It wasn't long before they crashed due to an unforeseen event in the roadway. This "unforeseen" item in the road wasn't breaking the law. The crashed riders began to berate the "cause" of the accident (the other item), when in reality a court of law would place all the blame on the motorcyclists.
We have very little room for argument if something unforeseen happens when we are operating outside the law. (That's where the term "outlaw" comes from)
10% Outlaw,
Greg
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10% Outlaw,
Greg
100% Outlaw,
Steve
fixed those typos for you buddy ;)
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lol wut (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o806Vx2VIFQ#ws)
I'm surprised nobody is comenting on the pass on the right in the second video. Once in the twistys passing on the right is a faux pas in my book. I usually say to pass only on the left when I organize a group ride. Maybe this particular rider couldn't get slowed in time to stay behind Mike, which suggests he may have been following to close.
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lol wut ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o806Vx2VIFQ#ws[/url])
I'm surprised nobody is comenting on the pass on the right in the second video. Once in the twistys passing on the right is a faux pas in my book. I usually say to pass only on the left when I organize a group ride. Maybe this particular rider couldn't get slowed in time to stay behind Mike, which suggests he may have been following to close.
Passing on the right is a no no in any scenario.......But I think it was let slide because none of the "regulars" on here need that reminder.
Picking apart these videos and pointing out the countless things done wrong seems futile to say the least--the main topics;
following distance
speed for skill level level (only touched on)
and skill level at all
seem to have been covered well (perhaps beat to death?? if that really can happen)
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The passing on the right, looks like another example of riding to close. IMO
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The second video makes me cringe in so many ways, I can't begin to comment.
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I remember when I had more luck than skill. Unfortunately, I burned through all my luck and had to develop more skill. I'm still working on increasing my riding skill and finding ways to reduce my risk. Consequently, I only consider myself an intermediate rider. For any of the riders who were unfortunate enough to be featured in these two videos, I hope your luck holds until you develop more skill and discretion. Mike, I know you are learning the hard way, buddy. For the rest of you in those videos, if you come away from this thread pumping out your chest and claiming you are an excellent rider, well then you truly missed the point. You also missed the opportunity to learn from other's mistakes.
Santayana said it well. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
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It took me several viewings to finally figure out what happened. I think video rider sensed the rider behind was almost hitting him and got spooked. I also wonder why he performed that last shift and just didn't stay on the throttle.
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Consequently, I only consider myself an intermediate rider.
I'm guessing part of your strategy is to downplay your skill level so you will keep working hard. I'm pretty certain your better than an "intermediate rider". :)
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It took me several viewings to finally figure out what happened. I think video rider sensed the rider behind was almost hitting him and got spooked. I also wonder why he performed that last shift and just didn't stay on the throttle.
Not sure why i did that to be honest. I think maybe i was torn between braking hard but at the last moment i decided to just take the turn wide. I took on the tar snake because the oncoming lane was
full of gravel.
But you are right, when i was starting to look into the turn i saw the rider right next to me in my peripheral, so my planned line was out of the question. Im pretty confident that if i woulda took my planned line he would have smacked into me.
This probably contributed to my crash too. I remeber being super pissed when i was pulling out of that corner and my mind wasnt right for the rest of the ride.
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Thanks Paul for the compliment :) Perhaps because I try to be honest with myself I see all the mistakes I make (and they are mistakes - like crossing the yellow following someone too hard). I feel like I am constantly improving, so you might be right. I might be cutivating a "beginner's mind" so that I can see the potential :o As the TV program asked, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" (you guys born after 1980 need not play)
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But you are right, when i was starting to look into the turn i saw the rider right next to me in my peripheral, so my planned line was out of the question. Im pretty confident that if i woulda took my planned line he would have smacked into me.
This probably contributed to my crash too. I remeber being super pissed when i was pulling out of that corner and my mind wasnt right for the rest of the ride.
That is perfectly understandable. It's this situation that really has spooked me out of riding with groups of guys I don't know very well. There is nothing that freaks me out more than sensing a wheel nudging into my periphery right as I enter a corner. It would be different on a race track, as it's something that you expect. At least there you can close the door and the rider better get on the binders are you're both in trouble. But you do not expect that wheel to be that close on the street and it's very unnerving because you do not know how well he can corner. :(
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Mark, your a real piece of work. There's much I can say, but not worth my time.
Piece of work how? I would love a PM with what you could say but this is not the place.
Ge I meant no offense by my comment & only speak from experience riding with you as well as what I've heard from others that have.
As many of us pointed out you were not 100% at fault but everyone on the ride played their part in one way or another.
For the record I have nothing against you personally but our riding styles are different so I would prefer not riding behind you but we should all be riding our own ride so that shouldn't matter.
Part of what I was saying in my original post (and that others pointed out multiple times) is that following distance had a lot to do with this incident....not any one riders specific actions other than Mikes.
Nor anything specific about who was in front or behind. So that's my 0.02 worth & I sort of wish I hadn't said anything at all. There's a reason I have been on the DL regarding forums the later part of the season.
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It took me several viewings to finally figure out what happened. I think video rider sensed the rider behind was almost hitting him and got spooked. I also wonder why he performed that last shift and just didn't stay on the throttle.
Not sure why i did that to be honest. I think maybe i was torn between braking hard but at the last moment i decided to just take the turn wide. I took on the tar snake because the oncoming lane was
full of gravel.
But you are right, when i was starting to look into the turn i saw the rider right next to me in my peripheral, so my planned line was out of the question. Im pretty confident that if i woulda took my planned line he would have smacked into me.
This probably contributed to my crash too. I remeber being super pissed when i was pulling out of that corner and my mind wasnt right for the rest of the ride.
well, nothing said you had to continue the ride. you or anyone else is free to pull out if its not going well for you. just let someone else know. or drop to the back and rethink things. i seperated from some people one morning because my comfort level wasnt where i would have liked it, mind elsewhere or speed or something. got back together with them at lunch and had a great afternoon. if i hadnt got back with them , i still had the route, and the sunshine, some tunes, and a smile riding my bike.
hope this makes sense,
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It took me several viewings to finally figure out what happened. I think video rider sensed the rider behind was almost hitting him and got spooked. I also wonder why he performed that last shift and just didn't stay on the throttle.
Not sure why i did that to be honest. I think maybe i was torn between braking hard but at the last moment i decided to just take the turn wide. I took on the tar snake because the oncoming lane was
full of gravel.
But you are right, when i was starting to look into the turn i saw the rider right next to me in my peripheral, so my planned line was out of the question. Im pretty confident that if i woulda took my planned line he would have smacked into me.
This probably contributed to my crash too. I remeber being super pissed when i was pulling out of that corner and my mind wasnt right for the rest of the ride.
well, nothing said you had to continue the ride. you or anyone else is free to pull out if its not going well for you. just let someone else know. or drop to the back and rethink things. i seperated from some people one morning because my comfort level wasnt where i would have liked it, mind elsewhere or speed or something. got back together with them at lunch and had a great afternoon. if i hadnt got back with them , i still had the route, and the sunshine, some tunes, and a smile riding my bike.
hope this makes sense,
Oh i know, but i still wanted to ride. But that little incident probably got the testosterone flowin, so i was riding a little more aggresivly than i should have been after that.
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pretty good comments in this thread. it has made me reconsider my following distance. I like to be close to the rider ahead of me because it is a personal preference, but I've never considered it much of a hinderance to them as I usually know them and ride with them all of the time. but sometimes i forget and creep upon others i'm not so familiar with. appreciate the lesson. rock on bitches.
maybe i need to be clearer......i want to leave further distance in the future. the above is what i have done in the past, not what i plan for the future.
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I highly endorse long following distances. Not only are you safer, it makes you a better rider as you need to make all cornering decisions on your own.
I learned this from watching Tony. He intelligently hangs back and rides his own ride, regardless of what others do in front of him. It's a great approach.
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I like to be close to the rider ahead of me because it is a personal preference, but I've never considered it much of a hinderance to them as I usually know them and ride with them all of the time.
I have a bad habit of crowding riders I am very familiar with as well. Notice that I called this a "bad habit". However familiar and accommodating your "wingman" are about this, it's setting you up for some pretty bad problems for unexpected events.
I can cite two examples of riders who had bad stuff happen as a consequence of this bad habit. One was a deer taking out a rider and his buddy ran over him and killed him. The other was a rider who suddenly realized he was about to miss a turn and started braking very hard and his buddy asspacked him because he was looking down at his own GPS (both wound up with an ambulance ride.)
It's almost a euphoric feeling to ride in close proximity through corners. I constantly have to fight the urge and remembering how bad things can happen help me to keep backing off.
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Very good thoughts and ideas shared on this thread - I like to ride on the straights 2 seconds or so behind the person on the left or right in a stagger.
I like to pace ride so the goal is never to use the brakes unless you need to. If you know the roads and have others in front of you it's real easy to kick back and down shift to set up corners and to do that I usually like to have a 3 to 5 second gap due to getting into a straight line formation on the outside to set up for the corner. I love smooth spirited group riding 8)
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I have a bad habit of crowding riders I am very familiar with as well. Notice that I called this a "bad habit". However familiar and accommodating your "wingman" are about this, it's setting you up for some pretty bad problems for unexpected events.
I remember a story about a twisty road turning to gravel on a group ride and things got out of hand for a whole bunch of people. I wonder how much space (and other planning / skills) would have been required for this situation to have been a non-issue. I think that's the goal, not that we all have a bunch of rules and regs capping the fun for some illusion of safety, but that when it hits the fan on "our" rides, there is no collateral damage, and as little direct damage as possible (see: gear, practice, training, awareness, etc).
It's almost a euphoric feeling to ride in close proximity through corners.
I have a picture (http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=motorcycle/_small/2011/ZARS11_0501_2628_small.jpg) of me doing that which brings back that emotion every time I look at it... what a rush, and how odd. :D
a.s.
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Another advantage of hanging back in the turns is that you can accelerate hard out of the turns without running out of clear road. If you want euphoric feelings, nothing beats catching someone at the exit of a turn when you went into the turn with 15-30 seconds of lag time. That fun feeling is just one of the reasons I hang back in groups. As someone said, an empty road also makes you judge your own corner speed and line.
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Some rhetorical questions for all of you:
Which would make you feel worse, rear ending a total stranger or a good friend?
Do you believe that a friendship and bond between two people can improve their reaction times?
For me the answer to these questions are I'd feel worse if I hit a friend and reaction time is reaction time. Just because I know the person riding in front of me, my reaction time doesn't get better, so my following distance shouldn't be any shorter.
Net, net, a safe following distance is a safe following distance. Don't make the mistake of thinking just because you've ridden with someone for a long time, that you can follow them any closer than anyone else. Remember following distance is more for the safety of the rider ahead of you than for you. Only a self centered twat would jeopardize the safety of their friends for their own personal pleasure.
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learned this video was shot with a gopro. people with them have an idea of distances and how deceiving these are. you can be a length or two back and look like its 10 lengths. found that interesting.
This is so true. So for anyone thinking they look like more than enough following distances, they are surely under 50' and likely under 25' for part of it
I also noticed looking at the guages, you can see the reflection of him still on the bike til pretty much impact....I was told he was off the bike well before that...hmmm
Regardless when he "went off" the bike--following distances were too close, etc.............
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He was down but he stay with the bike until the edge of the road. Then the bike stopped and he kept going down hill and into the rail. He knows how he it the rail at that moment I was not looking but I think it did spin him around.
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He was down but he stay with the bike until the edge of the road. Then the bike stopped and he kept going down hill and into the rail. He knows how he it the rail at that moment I was not looking but I think it did spin him around.
I have no clue how i flew off the bike really. but i was with it till it hit the ground, guessing the bike landed on my femur. I just remeber the bike slipping and having the feeling of getting hit by a baseball bat.
Then sliding down the road in slow motion thinking, wow these leathers kick ass. Then trying to get up and my left leg was flopping around like an accordian lol.
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My take is simply that shit happens. I'm guessing every single rider on here has crashed, or will crash, despite their level of experience. Everything can be analyzed in minute detail after the fact. Things happen at speed and a momentary lapse can take your from a close call to an "oh shit" moment right quick. I will offer nothing more than I'm glad you're still alive to talk about it, and that I hope your crash educates you and makes you want to be a better, safer, rider.
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My opinion is like so many have said-lack of experience. The 1st thing I noticed was your riding lines. Unless I'm riding sedately in staggered formation w others I constantly use my entire lane-late apexing etc. The vid is too short to be sure but the 1str right hander shows you all the way to the inside before what might be the apex. It appears that you're on the inside prematurely on the final left. Riding solo goes a long way for removing distractions that effect your riding-it is too easy for focus on the other riders rather than the road. Think of side by side riding giving the smallest envelope,staggered is better,and solo the best for safe space and focus. Unlike many others I've had no formal training but have ridden 50+yrs w 5 as a club racer. Luckily I haven't crashed since '85. Over the winter read some riding/racing technique books-long ago an old car racer borrowed me one by Pierro Taruffi from the 50s-former Gilera GP rider and car racer. A very old book but the theories and concepts of performance motoring haven't changed. Glad you're ok and perhaps you can make one of my weekday rides next year. GJ ::)
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Well I rode past the crash site and they replaced one section of rail that the bike hit. Pretty hard hit I would say.
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lol wut (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o806Vx2VIFQ#ws)
This second video, well we rode through this turn yesterday on our way back. That tar stripe you hit, it is completely in the oncoming traffic lane (probably where the inside tire would normally travel). So I think you had problems before running into that tar stripe, that you were already up into the oncoming traffic lane.
Not to beat a dead horse....
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What rode is that video of?
Kind of looks like CR E just outside of Alma or E just west of Arcadia between 95 and 88.
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E just west of Arcadia between 95 and 88.
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Thanks. Looking at the video again, I paid better attention and noticed the guy in front was almost on the shoulder of the opposing lane setting up for the turn-in. I wouldn't feel very comfortable riding riding behind him.
On a race track I understand that technique but why try to straighten out twisty public roads, it's not a race.
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^^^"but why try to straighten out twisty public roads, ...."^^^
exactly-the tighter the turn and the more challenging it is, isn't that the point ! atleast it is for me.
Straighteneing them out, you may as well just stay in MN on the big sweepers or go to the drag strip.
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WTF!! so that's what preceded the crash vid? The guy in front was way out but did you gas it to catch up after getting too far left? My comments about racing lines are about using all of your lane not both. I want to use the road in the most efficient manner not lean over as far as possible. My method leaves room for unforseen issues and has saved my ass many times with a bit of unused lean angle etc. It appears the guy ahead was a bit out of control and unfortunately you were pulled into his mania. If you plotted your two lines through that section you'd see that although he was out of his lane that line allowed him more speed and you trying to match on the tighter line overcooked. He'd be good to follow at a distance and learn from his mistakes.GJ ::)
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They guy two bikes ahead appears to overshoot and stand it up too.