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General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Aprilian on March 04, 2012, 08:01:48 PM
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(on my soapbox)
We all remember learning the controls when we started riding and probably also remember a point where we realized we loved the corners more than the straight roads.
For any given corner, a rider's skill needs to go up in order to go up through the corner faster.
For any given speed, a tighter corner takes more skill.
I've noticed that a lot of skilled road riders tend to favor speed over skill - evidenced by their straightening out a section of twisty road. Rather than slow down to ride a more crooked (and fun) route, they make the choice of adopting the racer's line. Racers are trying to make it around a closed course faster than anyone else and in order to accomplish that, they try to find the shortest, fastest and therfore straightest path around the track. We have all seen race bikes succesfully straighten an "esse" corner on a track.
I have occasionally done exactly the oposite here in town (for example on Highway 3 in IGH) I purposely try to go outside of corner to outside of corner to raise the skill level needed at acceptable in-town speeds. This is a great way to A) have extra fun B) increase skill and C) have to think harder about a road you might be overly familiar with.
So why did I start this by crawling up on my soapbox? Because 1) I believe some riders in this group could show more precision in cornering by slowing down and not taking racetrack lines in order to keep up with the bikes in front of them and 2) it gives us a new way to describe what "Ride your own ride" means. We can tell the new riders (and perhaps remind some regulars) that if you are taking ANY different line through the corner on a group ride, (different than you would on a solo relaxed ride), then you are pushing too hard and ought to slow down.
Last year saw some accidents among some of our very skilled riders - perhaps this year we can go back to an accident-free year by understanding that one way group rides can go bad is when following the fundamentals of "the Pace" degrades to be more like "the Race".
Looking forward to riding safely with the group again this fall (summer always seems to be overscheduled).
(turning insurance on Monday for the bikes 8) )
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This reminds me to do my annual 'go ride around an empty parking lot' spring routine and get used to really moving my bike around.
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Last year saw some accidents among some of our very skilled riders - perhaps this year we can go back to an accident-free year by understanding that group rides go bad by taking the fundamental phillosophy of "the Pace" and changng our lines to be more like "the Race".
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First, I assume you meant to write "....and changing our lines to be less like "the Race"
Is taking the single track line (ie. following a single tire track line) through turns safer than the race line for a given speed? Is the race line, the fastest line through all turns?
Single track is safer when there is gravel, but at the same time it is a more difficult line to ride. Try to keep up with some one using a race line in a flat turn, makes it even more difficult. Is more difficult safer? Of course the point should be to ride your own ride and not try to keep up, but in practice, there is undeniably some wishful thinking in this. Try to use a race (straight) line through heavily cambered switchbacks and you find out that a single track line generally works better.
Personally I vacillate between the two lines. Both lines have their place in reducing risk and in producing challenge. Both lines emphasize different skills. The race line emphasizing quick deliberate efficient steering and the single track line emphasizing steering precision. Unknown road and/or significant potential for gravel, single track line. Clean flat pavement with good sight lines, race line. Of course sometimes it has little to do with the road and more to do with how I feel and how I want to be entertained. Without a doubt, as time goes by I tend to ride single track more and more often. It is a great way to make a slower paced ride entertaining, but there are definitely some roads on which nothing satisfies like riding a race line.
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I assume you meant to write "....and changing our lines to be less like "the Race"
I'll change that sentence to read better. I meant my point to be that rides can get dangerous when we allow the Pace to degrade to a 'race'.
Is taking the single track line (ie. following a single tire track line) through turns safer than the race line for a given speed? Is the race line, the fastest line through all turns?
Not the point that I was trying to make. I meant to point out that when you choose to use the race line to keep up with other riders, you are giving up an element of precision and perhaps safety. I would agree that at a given speed that "unstraightening" a curve is more dangerous if the person is riding close to the limit of their skill. It is also more dangerous if one encounters oil, sand, etc. at a greater lean angle.
Both lines have their place in reducing risk and in producing challenge. <SNIP> It (single track) is a great way to make a slower paced ride entertaining, but there are definitely some roads on which nothing satisfies like riding a race line.
Well put. My slight rant came from remembering some rides last year where only the race line was exhibited in front of me.
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By "Race line" are either of you saying use the entire road or are you saying using all of "your" lane...
I will ad this.........if you are using more than your lane or knowingly riding faster than you normally would-you clearly are riding too fast in order to "stay with" the group.... You need to be able to and willing to reign yourself in and slow down.
For those who ride like jackasses all the time and think the whole road is your racetrack--clearly none of this thread is for you...so just stay out of it t !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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By "race line" I meant using every inch of the lane you are in and carrying enough speed that you occasionally cross the center line with a wheel or your body. I also meant riding in a manner in which you justify infringing into the other lane by "I could see clearly...".
Part of what I am trying to point out is how we may be tricking new riders into thinking skill comes from becoming comfortable riding at a high speeds. I believe the opposite, that once you have the precision to place your bike wherever you need at a given speed, then you can go faster and make decisions (as Ray mentioned) whether to ride the wheel track or straighten the curves.
One of the points I am doing a poor job of explaining is that I sometimes ride many miles to get to twisty roads only to watch the rider(s) in front of me try to make the technical bits into a straight line so they can keep up with the lead riders.
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"One of the points I am doing a poor job of explaining is that I sometimes ride many miles to get to twisty roads only to watch the rider(s) in front of me try to make the technical bits into a straight line so they can keep up with the lead riders."
No I think that was pretty clear.
I always enjoy the rides most that are on roads where the vast majority of turns are marked sub 30 mph. And then stay in a wheel track or at the least only use about 1/2 or 2/3 of my lane.
But I too have seen numerous riders who "straighten" every single turn on a ride (some even post up those videos)...I really don't understand why one would want to diminish the chance to actually get to use the bike and lean and turn.....unless they simply can't..........Sadly this often the case...
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People sometimes equate their own 'improvement' 'skill' or whatever in if they feel a sense of getting through a particular stretch of road 'quicker/faster' than they did in previous ride... leading to taking race lines. Probably not a great habit.
However, although I don't cross the center line I enjoy darting from point A to point B on a twisty road sometimes, cutting from outside - inside -outside - back inside through an S curve. I agree with Ian if you're doing this in order to keep someone in your sights you're setting yourself up for trouble, i.e. the next unknown curve is sharper than expected and you run fast past the apex. (then tense up and slide into a guard rail) Lloyd's right there's been a few videos of this posted.
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I like to take my cruiser thru these turns sometimes and try to hold my imaginary 1/3 of the lane, trying not to cross that line. It makes it fun and also makes easier turns to be fairly difficult.
I agree everyone is riding for different reasons, so it is impossible to have them ride for your reason.
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I am with numb nuts on this one. No such thing as "race line" on the street - you push wide on a right-hander; street, you face on-coming traffic; track, depends on the track -could be fence, gravel, out-house, parking-lot...
PACE is not the answer to safe riding - the idiot at the controls is.
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to my way of thinking the "race line" means the whole road, maybe i need to adjust that. anyhow, i don't think "parallel to the paint" or riding the "single track" is a good indicator of anything in particular; if you're in your lane it doesn't bother me too much how you choose to get through a corner as long as you aren't obviously over your head. hang-off and straighten it out vs. counter-lean and parallel to the paint / edges / natural tire grooves - extremes perhaps, but neither addresses the problem of riding poorly, and who can say if the person using more lean angle at a given speed is taking more or less risk than a person crossing imaginary boundaries within a lane. i'd say that barring gravel / sand the racer is doing it safer, all other things being equal (and good luck with that "all other things being equal"!).
my personal goals probably use the same words as everyone else's, "master the sport", "improve", "be safer", "be smarter", dare i say "be faster", things like that. i do think we need to be more aware and more vocal (privately perhaps) when things need correcting. for example, i'm already planning on changing my front tire as a result of the verbal whipping someone took last year and I'm more careful than ever when passing as part of a group; that type of thing, done with tact and to help people do more things better, improves the group.
speed is relative and so is safety.
Andy
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2 CENTS From an 'OLD Fart'. I've tended towards the race line forever-I was into GPs And IOM in Junior high(1960). I like to ride the white line on straights just to be the farthest from oncoming things. My feeling about race line comes from the premiss that I'll have most of my lane as a safety factor just in case. Picture rounding a blind corner(we seldom see any right?)and finding a cowpie,the cow,or a sleeping armadillo in your way. On the race line you can probably go wide but if you're already wide cutting your line tighter may not work. If you've been on the track you know the difference between the WFO & 'Demon Braking' of racing and 'The Pace'-not wasting fuel,tires,brake pads,or safety for a fun,smooth,swift ride. GJ ::)
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Rant on
SS between Lund and Porcupine (of course there are other roads too, but this one most everyone will know)
I far too often see people crossing the double yellow or even through the "s" section cutting off both sides of the corner, essentially running almost straight through.....
If all these people wanted was to go straight, go ride on the interstate.
If all these people want is to brag how fast they got from point A to point B, without actually turning the bike--go drag race
Another road many will know---
I took a rider down Cannon Falls-Red wing area
yep great big WOT MN sweeper roads with huge site lines..... Well I tried to emphasize the (at car type speeds) the strategy of picking and holding a line, looking early enough and far enough ahead to actually know the line you want to travel and then execute it etc.....3 passes later I hear that this person thought they did the worst when only going about 62ish as apposed to the pass they led at 72ish
When from my perspective they did the best job picking and holding a line and actually leaning the bike at 62 mph (although at 62 that road doesn't require much lean) it still was fast enough to concentrate on some individual skills---where to look, when to look-picking a line--holding that line-- loosen your arms---relax your shoulders---turn your head and hips not just your shoulders--observe driveways and treelines etc for dangers etc....
I suck at drawing something and trying to post it---but last year Greg started a thread with drawings of race lines, "proper" lines etc......It may be worth it to search out that thread and re-read some of it??
But I do not think that "race line" even if you stay in your lane is the best line. Perhaps in some instances it is, but in many turns it will not be, something you really have to develop as a rider (especially if running a spirited pace on unfamilar roads) first off you need to know how to turn, you need to read the turns better and far enough ahead of them and you need to slow down enough for the times you read a turn wrong...That truck, car, tree, guardrail, sand, gravel, deer, or whatever isn't going to care how well you took some other turn or "how fast" you can straighten the road. All that will matter that one time is that turn and what you do then and there.....
I have already been told this twice (or it was mentioned and I heard) on 2 of the rides I have been on. That my 70ish cruise speed from gas stop to gas stop was too slow and not much fun and that I must not be a very good rider, even though through the "tighter" sections I couldn't see anyone in my mirrors.
So the discussion went on about how "fast" these guys are and so I turned over the lead to them on the one ride (the other the ride was over before I heard anything) and they instantly took off 100+ from the stop-then the road curved, still a 55 mph curve, they slowed to about 75, then back 100+ on the straight and down to 55-60ish through a series of turns marked 40-45, then back to 100+, then a couple 30-35 mph turns they barely went 30-35. So this road was about 10 miles long and this is how it went the entire length. So we got to the stop and I said,
So this is how you ride?
This is what makes you think you are a good rider, better than me? Because you can go 100+ in a straightline and then barely the recommended speed in the turns?
So I had the group turn around and go through it again at my 70ish "cruise" pace end to end....well needless to say I didn't see hardly anyone in the group for most of the road-as they were too slow in the turns to keep up and then rocket ships on the straights trying to catch up, then "demon braking" and cleaning their shorts out as the turns approached. I bet I waited a full 2 minutes for the first bike to arrive at the end of the road.
So we ran it again, this time I told them just follow me at 62ish---I will simply "cruise" at 62 end to end....Well that was a little too fast for some of them and they resorted to their 100+ to catch up a few times, but some did finally "get it" and actually understood that "cruising" the pace is more challenging in some aspects then "racing" down the road. Others simply thought their riding style (triple digits on the straights and stopped in the corners) was more fun. Of course looking in the mirrors I could see some of them still straightening every curve in the road or routinely crossing the double yellow. This was cty rd O (between 35 and 10)
I departed the ride at that point and left them to go ride like inexperienced asshats that they were. 2 weeks later I heard one of them crossed the centerline and creamed a car, riding how they thought was "being a good rider"
Hey not everyone will ride the same way and not everyone has any skills or business owning/riding a motorcycle...Certainly that group of riders I won't ride with again.
Far too many "riders" equate straightening every turn and riding at 100+ on the straights as being a "good rider"--these people are only fooling themselves and the idiots that follow them in their beliefs. I hope to meet none of them this year on any rides!!
rant off
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"I've noticed that a lot of skilled road riders tend to favor speed over skill - evidenced by their straightening out a section of twisty road. Rather than slow down to ride a more crooked (and fun) route,"
I do not consider these types of riders to be very skilled
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How did you find yourself riding with that group, Lloyd? That's all I kept wondering. And yes I know exactly the type of riders you describe. Honestly, it's sad but I would say the majority of sport bike riders fall into that 'style' of riding. None that I have ridden with here though.... hmmmm (except me ;D )
Oh, and if I ever rode with someone that cut through the middle of that snake-like portion of SS I would have to slap them. Some of my rides, hitting that section and holding a good steady line through that weave while taking in the open valley and scenery all around is the highlight of my ride.
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I like to take my cruiser thru these turns sometimes and try to hold my imaginary 1/3 of the lane, trying not to cross that line. It makes it fun and also makes easier turns to be fairly difficult.
"I will ad this.........if you are using more than your lane or knowingly riding faster than you normally would-you clearly are riding too fast in order to "stay with" the group.... You need to be able to and willing to reign yourself in and slow down." by Lloyd
I'm just catching up on this thread but agree with a lot of what others have to say.
Pertaining to what I've quoted above....I have a cruiser also & do enjoy the differences in how I have to change my riding style on the same road depending on the bike I'm on.
Several times I've put a couple hundred or more miles on one bike then switched to the other & done the same thing in the same day. Man is that an eye opener...especially if some of the same roads are incorporated!!
I agree with what Lloyd said. That is a great way to point out that you are riding above where you should be.
I know I've been guilty of this in the past...especially my first couple of seasons riding with people from forums & in large groups.
I still remember one ride that I crashed on & thinking that just before the crash I had the flash thought that the two riders behind me were ass packing me so I should either let them go by or let someone else lead.
The problem was I was the group leader & had the route so they wouldn't know where to go next. Of course hind sight is always 20/20 & if I had it to do over again I would have handed the lead off. I also don't ride with those two people anymore or people like them.
Bottom line I learned a hard lesson & have scaled back my street riding over the past couple seasons. If some think that makes me slow then so be it. I want to ride safe & have fun.
This is a reason why I like to either be the one leading the ride or ensure I have a route sheet so I don't have to try to play keep up or have people wait for me.
This is also a big reason why MSTA is my main forum of choice to post rides. I may post some on other forums but it's most likely just to reach some people that I know aren't on here but are good to ride with.
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"How did you find yourself riding with that group, Lloyd?"
I would get calls, texts, emails and stop bys nearly daily all summer long from customers. All of them asking me to go ride with them, or am I riding.
For a couple years I tried to get out and socialize and build some sort of repor with these guys as much as I could. (may sound terrible, but...) mostly in the hope and expectation of cultivating more business and a more steady repeat customer base. but I soon realized that the majority of these people had no money for their bikes (spent it all on parties and boozing it up) and did no maintenance whatsoever only hodge podge temporary repairs. They also barely rode there bikes-most rode less than 4-5000 miles a year, so I quit riding so much with these jokers--especially after seeing how the vast majority of them ride like idiots.
Oh sure I still do far too rides with my customers who ride like idiots, but the majority now know what I will tolerate and won't when I go out and chauffeur them around. A few even learned valuable lessons on how to go in the woods and search for your ignition key, or how long it takes to empty the ice cube machine at the gas station so it is light enough to move to retrieve said key from behind/under it- when you are a total dumbass like some of them are. Needless to say those people are on my do not ride with list---probably a mutual feeling no doubt. I do not get so many calls/texts/emails/stop by invitations anymore.....LOL
I once too was a short term member of "those" forums and saw first hand every ride was short--with many starts and stops and generally only rode on the same road at triple digit speeds and then slower than slow through anything but WOT sweepers--by the leadership of those 'clubs". Not to mention nearly every ride at the time had multiple bike crashes from following too close, too much speed for their skill level, too much ego and testorone, too worn out tires (it was an excuse many used), being far too underskilled, not knowing how to actually turn/lean/stop/be smooth, trying to play "catch up" because the leaders always had to run triple digits and many (far smarter in that respect but not smart enough to read a corner apparently) riders were not willing to run triple digits and would be left etc......Well you get the point....They had absolutely no business riding a motorcycle--and many still don't.... Crashing was a right of passage and they routinely bragged about crashes and the more they had and walked away from the more invincible they acted. Of course a crash was always "not my fault" there was sand, a car, a shadow, a transmission problem etc...always an excuse to shuck blame
Yes of course there were a few people who could ride better, and no doubt there are members of those forums today who can ride, but the leaderships only purpose was to show/prove/brag how they are the best and how "fast" they can go (and as best I can tell, still is for the most part--well besides padding their ego-- they are padding their pocketbook).
Only difference I see now is (besides they actually wear better gear) that part of that "proving" is them touching a knee down because that is what the racers do....So that must be the right way, the cool way, the best way to navigate a turn. And since many have done a "trackday" they now are all experts at everything riding and have nothing to learn....
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LOL "a shadow". It is kinda funny the guys who will hang off as far as they can to touch a knee pad even though the bike is nearly vertical still, with plenty of reserve lean angle left.
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When we were riding in NC last fall we stayed in the 65-70mph range. Much more fun when entering a twisty section to ride the pace, no demon braking, no whacking the throttle. With the twisty roads down there its so much fun just to have a good pace and ride smoothly from corner to corner, of which there are a billion.