mn-msta.com
General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: pkpk on April 24, 2012, 06:44:56 PM
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While thumbing through this months American Motorcyclist (AMA) magazine, I found out about a new certificate program that was filed under the Minnesota House (file 2008). This program would allow riders to act as flaggers on motorcycle group rides. A properly certified rider would have priority over traffic signals and stop signs in order to direct riders in an orderly manner through controlled intersections.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H2008.0.html&session=ls87 (https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H2008.0.html&session=ls87)
I recall a thread about this either here or on MNSBR a few years ago that drew some rather heated arguments (couldn't have been here, right?) If I recall, there was a sense of entitlement by some riders who think it's perfectly acceptable to halt traffic for large groups of bikes. Clearly there exists no legal entitlement that allows riders to act as traffic cops, but perhaps soon one can presumably be certified to be a flagger.
My guess is this won't pass simply because there is no precedence that allows a civilian to proactively control traffic. Even funeral processions require an officer to provide the traffic control at intersections. If it does pass, I could see designated flaggers on our group rides. We'll have to stick with the fast guys though (Vince, Ray, Tony, Denyse, get your flags ready.) :D
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Oh hell yeh, please wave me through an intersection doing 201MPH - Occifer, they said I could - Love it!
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Yeah, there is that....and there is the one where two guys, who are properly certified, take turns flagging each other through red lights. This bill will either be loosely worded, so anything goes, or so tediously detailed, that it won't be enforceable. :D
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I'm not in favor of this at all. But I don't ride in huge groups either. This might be popular with the clubs that do parade type rides.
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FYI PK, those guys riding motorcycles at/during funeral processions are NOT cops.
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Are they retired? The bikes appear very official in Minneapolis. Are they meant to look that way on purpose?
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Meant to look that way, for sure. There may be a retired one here or there. But I'm quite sure there are no active officers (in the metro area) working there. You'll note on the sides of the bikes is days "Special Deputy" :) not. You can tell a cop by the gun on his hip. A good friend of mine works for a escort service and the service he works for does the escort duty for the Ride For Kids 7/15/12 up at Century College, and Bill Bassett from Motoprimo leads the ride.
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I recall getting "caught up" in funeral processions within Minneapolis and seeing the control bike illegally pass traffic on city streets with red and blue lights flashing as he made his way to the next intersection. My assumption has always been this was an active cop or deputy. Actually seen them doing this task in the dead of winter too. Always had a bit of admiration for whomever would take on this thankless job.
But if you read on-line articles about this flagger bill, I get the impression there is no official legal standing to allow any civilian to control traffic. Either enforcement or DOT has this right but maybe I'm missing something.
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To me this is good news. I advocated for this when I was on the MMSAC.
Actually PKPK, this was modeled from an existing set of instructions on how to empower Oversized Vehicle Escorts (civilians).
https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/msp/forms-reports/Documents/Proposed%20Rules%20-%20Pilot%20and%20Escort%20Vehicles.pdf
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Thanks Vander. I can see it for oversized loads. Not only should this be required for safety reasons, but there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle is limited to a length that wouldn't halt traffic or signals for more than needed to get the load through.
I cannot see it for hundreds of cruisers hauling oversized loads though. :D
Seriously, there is waaay too much subjective and creative interpretation of laws in the motorcycle community to even think about empowering them with the tools to legally halt traffic and ignore control devices. It wouldn't take long for one irate state legislator to turn back the clock on that one (and then some). Frankly, I never saw motorcycle groups as being above the rest of normal traffic flow. Why should a large group of motorcycles be given any sort of preferential traffic flow treatment than a automobiles? What sort of rationalization can be applied here, beyond keeping the group trundling together? Next you'll have the Corvette Club, the Mini-Cooper club, a bicycle club and any other special interest group claiming they deserve the same right to use a flagger. Not to mention, there is no practical way this can cover all situations. You can't stop a train for a bunch of motorcycles for instance. So the group winds up busted up from that alone.
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Your concerns and opinions reflected those of MANY other riders too.
To me, they are sound and valid.
However (you were waiting for that one, weren't you? :D)...
These big parade style rides are very popular, and are the financial core of some important charities. They also are backed and promoted by some pretty heavy hitting (politically) Motorcycle groups in Minnesota (such as ABATE). They happen, and they will continue to happen. And to facilitate these types of rides, implementing traffic controls favoring the integrity of the group is the preferred way to ensure the greatest level of safety.
As far as the concern for an impending slipper slope of auto clubs, bicycle clubs, and golf clubs following suit for this special treatment? Valid... and addressed. Only special events with approved permits will "activate" the power of traffic control for the certified ride escorts.
And just so you know, traffic control duties is seen as "chump work" for LEOs. They will gladly pass this off to civilians. I was a military cop awhile back... traffic duties went to the newbs.
I hope that clarifies things... I'd be willing to try and answer more questions if you have any.
For me, it's a good compromise. Perhaps more understanding and info will help in making this sound LESS stoo-ped for some on here. ;D
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Thanks for the thoughtful response. It does go a ways to making me understand the rationale.
However......(I have to, sorry.) :)
These big parade style rides are very popular, and are the financial core of some important charities. They also are backed and promoted by some pretty heavy hitting (politically) Motorcycle groups in Minnesota (such as ABATE). They happen, and they will continue to happen. And to facilitate these types of rides, implementing traffic controls favoring the integrity of the group is the preferred way to ensure the greatest level of safety.
As a cage driver, I really could give a rip that it's a charity ride with some political agendas at play. I'm spending my Saturday working on a stubborn tractor, I'm behind on my planting, there is rain coming tomorrow and I have to get that tractor done pronto...shoot, I need a new belt, gotta run to the Deere dealer for that belt. Now you think I should wait at an intersection for 500 teddy bear haulers to pass through on their own casual schedule? I don't think so!
This sounds mean-spirited doesn't it? Well many people running chores on their day off are not accepting arguments that favor special interest organizations. This is YOUR view of the situation, but not mine. (and that is sort of my original point here, no one should have preferential treatment at traffic control unless it's an established practice by a municipality...such as an annual parade.) I guess a way around this would be to schedule the event and put out public service announcements on the radio/TV.
BTW, sort of how entitlement can get out of hand. I was riding up north on a state highway and a town had shut down the state highway so they could stage the start of their parade on the highway. I quizzed a local cop about this practice and he shrugged, been doing it that way for years and no one complained (tell that to the half a dozen irate truckers lined up behind me.) Eventually a trooper came along and put a halt to their sense of entitlement over the roadway I paid for with my taxes.
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This sounds mean-spirited doesn't it?
Nope. Sounds very real. As would the frustration felt by many citizens of the affected community.
But there IS a mechanism for the members of the community to use in stopping these events. Follow up on whatever governing body approved the permit for the event, and voice the frustrations to those leaders. The governing body can simply not approve further permits to allow the event to take place.
It really puts the power at the community level. I like that, at least.
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Hey pk are you that Geezer with a Grudge guy?
:D :lfmao:
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Hey pk are you that Geezer with a Grudge guy?
:D :lfmao:
Ha! Mr Day *is* my role model for sure.
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Sounds like just another excuse for the government to create yet another job for the government. Revenue's......Who and how will they train and regulate, who decides on the curriculum or makes the decision of who and why someone gets to be a "flagger". Does there bike need special flashing lights or to be of a certain type?
It is one thing to "wait" on a funeral procession. But you will not find Joe public so willing to wait for some group of over entitled cry babies out riding just to ride. (fund raising or not)
I won't be stopping for some idiot kick off ride, just because some over entitled cry baby is standing there pointing to wait....Go ahead and try to ticket me !
The only safety issue really here. All the idiots in the parade are unable and unwilling to simply ride from point A to point B without being paraded around. OMG really they need to know where they are going and follow a route...oh boo hoo--fricking whiners.
Hey how about they accept the rules of the road and navigate themselves, if they happen to be able to catch lights green and stay together great, if not wait your turn and don't be a jackass and think you then need to "run down" the group of bikes that did make it through that intersection.
Who gets to ticket that flagger rider---they surely will be in a constant break the law mode trying to continually catch up and pass to "flag" again.....or are they entitled to break the law (whether written or just given a free pass)
Yep sounds like a completely unreasonable government solution to a non existent problem.....Disguised as a need for "safety"....
Vander you state people can complain to their local municipality to have these permits stopped....do you really think government much gives a damn what the public thinks-they do what they want with little regard to what the public wants. Besides far too many people are too PC and too damn passive and too damn lazy to actually follow through channels that would/could make a difference-they simply would complain to the neighbors/friends/relatives and forget about it in a couple days....Until it happens again...I doubt many care about parades that block roads---4th of July and town birthdays etc....it has come to be expected and accepted
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Vander you state people can complain to their local municipality to have these permits stopped....do you really think government much gives a damn what the public thinks-they do what they want with little regard to what the public wants. Besides far too many people are too PC and too damn passive and too damn lazy to actually follow through channels that would/could make a difference-they simply would complain to the neighbors/friends/relatives and forget about it in a couple days....Until it happens again...I doubt many care about parades that block roads---4th of July and town birthdays etc....it has come to be expected and accepted
I can foresee people complaining on MANY angles, actually:
The people that see a group ride parading through their communities as a great inconvenience
The public safety agencies not willing to deal with the congestion and potential for road rage/ other crimes
Nursing homes complaining about the disruptive noise
Churches/ Temples complaining about the noise and congestion
Sportbike forum people that live 50 miles away but hate the idea of cruiser parade rides... ;)
And I foresee those that support the rides too:
The charities generating revenue from the registration fees
The bars and restaurants generating revenue from the ride participants
The gas stations generating revenue
The other motorcyclist (or former)in the community that enjoy the ride and spectating
And they all seem to call each other "entitled"... ;D
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When I'm King any group of 6 or more bikers,roller bladers,camel drivers,texters,or streakers will have the right of way in ALL traffic situations! A goodly portion of society already believes that they own the road-just ask the drivers that run into school buses. GJ ::)
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John... ;D
Maybe they should have every citizen sign up for a time slot to have the road all to their own... that'd work, wouldn't it?
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Flood run doesn't have nor does it need "flaggers"---why should some charity ride....oh wait that is a charity ride....why should some other charity ride need preferential treatment..............entitlement !!! the only legitimate excuse and a piss poor one at that.
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Flood run doesn't have nor does it need "flaggers"---why should some charity ride....oh wait that is a charity ride....why should some other charity ride need preferential treatment..............entitlement !!! the only legitimate excuse and a piss poor one at that.
I don't want contribute to your high stress levels, Lloyd... but problems with the Flood Run(s) were major inspirations for this piece of legislation.
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The "FLOOD RUN" is its own problem-or is that tradition? :o
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The only flaggers needed at the Flood Run would be to momentarily interrupt the constant flow of bikes, so the locals can get someplace in their cars.
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Here I thought this was going to be a thread about corner working for the CRA. :D
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Here I thought this was going to be a thread about corner working for the CRA. :D
I was going to make a joke about confusing those guys with floggers, but decided the better of it. :D
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Not something I'm for, but it is something some citizens and riding clubs want.
Everyone has different ideas on what should be laws, and sometimes it is a legislator who has a bright idea. In this case, though it is not something a legislator thought up, it is something a bunch of voters thought up.