mn-msta.com
General Category => Safety and Riding Tips => Topic started by: Jared on April 04, 2012, 11:53:02 AM
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Every year on this and other forums, we have riders who crash or have close calls. Last year we had a couple discussions here about accidents that took place. Some of the conversation was around supporting the injured rider, some was about the specific detail of what happened and what we could learn, and some was just about drama.
When I’ve crashed in the past, I haven’t publically posted the details of what happened because I don’t want the drama. I also don’t want people Monday-morning QB-ing my actions when I know what happened based on my perspective and that of the riders I was with. Anything else is conjecture, with the possible exception of video.
I also think that when I’ve crashed or had close calls I’ve learned from it and come out a better rider on the other side (mentally if not physically...). Starting this season, any incidents or close calls that I have I will post a brief recap of (not incidents of other riders I ride with, just my own). The recap will contain bulleted facts about what happened and contributing factors, along with any key takeaways I had. I'm also thinking about doing this retrospectively.
Anybody else interested in doing the same?
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in here the OP is in control, so yes, i think the OP can keep it exactly (well, hopefully) the way they want it. we'll have to see how these superpowers work out for us mere mortals.
a.s.
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On the OP's original point, I am always fascinated to learn from other's mistakes to hopefully get the takeaway without the pain. So people that are willing to share mishaps and close calls I would love to read and learn from.
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I agree that there is merit in rehashing the accident IF the rider has an open mind. I will give you an example...
I was at the front straight fence at DCTC for a RidersCourse day. I was watching the "Rowdy" group ride. One CRA racer came into the corner on a totally different line (turning in super early and having to straighten up his line). He then had to turn really hard and the bike low sided. Later I went to see how he was and ask him if he knew what happened. He said his tires had gone off. I told him what I had seen and he could not hear it. Somehow blaming his tires was acceptable to his view of his ability where as making a mistake on his line was something he could not imagine.
What are the lessons?
1) listen to what others tell you even if there is no video
2) everyone knows that blaming your tires is the sportbiker equivalent of "I had to lay her down"
3) don't post an accident if you have already reached your conclusion of what happened
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In my opinion, it's always best to have an "out" somewhere. At that instant in the turn I had no "outs".
Greg
Agreed.
Anyone recall that SIPDE acronym from driver's ed?
Scan
Identify
Predict
Decide
Execute
I still use that, but I have learned to really expand on the "SIP" part of it.
I have come to totally expect drivers to pull the absolute worst possible maneuvers within my path of travel... and I conduct a daily excise on how to implement a split second plan on escaping it. It's kind of like drilling myself everyday to avoid an accident.
It may sound totally paranoid and crazy (okay... it is).
But after 8 years of drilling and preparing for "fight to the death" types of scenarios from the military, it makes sense to me. And I truly believe it really does help in conditioning you for the "what-ifs".
The following was a common phrase to be stated: "Sweat more in training/ Bleed less in battle"
I will still subscribe to the fact that you can't prepare for everything, but I have been crash free since 2003 (knock-on-wood).
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I have come to totally expect drivers to pull the absolute worst possible maneuvers within my path of travel... and I conduct a daily exercise on how to implement a split second plan on escaping it. It's kind of like drilling myself everyday to avoid an accident.
Let's pretend there are only two types of riders:
1. Riders who have frequent close encounters and complain that "Everyone's trying to kill me out there!"
2. Riders who rarely experience close encounters with other road users.
Do you think riders who use a strategy like Vander's are more likely to be members of the first group or the second group?
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So someone could not be a member of both groups?
Think everyone is out to kill you but because of employing stategies like Vanders, rarely encounter a close call?
Your edited version makes more sense.
I would far rather be prepared and never need to use the skills than to be unprepared then someday need them and not have them...
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So someone could not be a member of both groups?
Probably, but that's because I worded the first description poorly. Can you help me reword the description of the first group to make the two groups mutually exclusive?
Most riders I know fit one of the two descriptions. And by the first group, I'm thinking of people who tell me that most cage drivers need to be educated to look out for motorcyclists but never suggest that many motorcyclists could benefit from improving their skills.
I think it was Keith Code who said something about motorcycles being so manueverable that there's never a good excuse for hitting anything unintentionally. A bit extreme, maybe, but there's a dab of truth to it.
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While the idea of sharing safety moments seems to make sense, I can't remember a single instance where the person sharing the moment got or possibly more accurately received valuable insight. Probably just old age setting in, but it seems like the sharing always devolves into judgement and character assassination so valid input gets lost in drama, emotion or ego.
Can't say I can tell whether the problem is how the person who is sharing the moment, shares, it or whether it is their attitude, or the attitude of the respondents, or the need of respondents in commenting to somehow deny they are as susceptible to whatever befell the person who is sharing.
I wonder whether the ability to control the post will somehow change this situation.
With respect to my own last few accidents, I can't say there was much which was worthwhile sharing. The mistakes I made which led to the accidents were obvious to me (ignored sign indicating loose gravel ahead, ignored warnings about fresh chip and seal, over rode my ability to see in a challenging lighting situation) and I'm pretty sure everyone who was with me. Maybe this is the issue with sharing. At some level, if the person is sharing and looking for feedback, it means they made a mistake, but somehow they didn't get the mistake they made and are somehow looking for an explanation, other than they made a mistake (think of Ian's post in this context). The vast majority of posts I can remember seeking to share moments, invariable seek to explain accidents by performance failures (those XYZ tires just don't provide enough traction) or by blaming them on others, or by blaming them on road conditions.
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Let's pretend there are only two types of riders:
1. Riders who have frequent close encounters and complain that "Everyone's trying to kill me out there!"
2. Riders who rarely experience close encounters with other road users.
Do you think riders who use a strategy like Vander's are more likely to be members of the first group or the second group?
It's an interesting way to put it Brent. I think it's the "frequent encounters" part that makes the difference between the two. Everyone on two wheels will have encounters with inattentive drivers on occasion.
I heard a guy once say that every time he swings a leg over the bike a "cager" tries to kill him. To Vander's point above, there is a lot that we can do to avoid these types of incidents.
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While the idea of sharing safety moments seems to make sense, I can't remember a single instance where the person sharing the moment got or possibly more accurately received valuable insight.
Neither can I, but learning the details of someone else's crash might teach someone else a valuable lesson. It might help someone else avoid the same kind of crash.
Some of what I've learned from other people's crash stories:
1. Crashes resulting in either no injuries or non-life-threatening injuries are more common than I might have guessed.
2. Gear is a major factor in whether the rider leaves the scene on two wheels or in an ambulance.
3. It's common for the rider to seek a scapegoat.
4. Many crashes are the result of the rider "giving up" and riding off the road, rather than the bike's tires losing their grip on the road surface and sliding off the road.
5. Most crashes are a result of several factors rather than just one single factor, but some crashes could have been prevented by eliminating just one factor.
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I personally like to talk through crashes and tip-overs - minor or major. Some are downright silly, and sometimes it's a good thing to laugh at our mistakes and learn from them. But, for the serious ones, I like to play the scenarios in my mind and think about what *I* would have done in a similar situation. Thinking through different possible strategies and outcomes will hopefully aid me someday if I ever have to use one of them. I believe that playing the "what if" game is extremely valuable.
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Vander, I like the SIPDE strategy. In the BRCs, we say SEE which I think is easier to remember.
Search
Evaluate
Execute - Adjust speed, adjust lane position, and/or communicate your intentions to others.
I believe I'm a better car driver because I ride a motorcycle.
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While the idea of sharing safety moments seems to make sense, I can't remember a single instance where the person sharing the moment got or possibly more accurately received valuable insight. Probably just old age setting in, but it seems like the sharing always devolves into judgement and character assassination so valid input gets lost in drama, emotion or ego.
Can't say I can tell whether the problem is how the person who is sharing the moment, shares, it or whether it is their attitude, or the attitude of the respondents, or the need of respondents in commenting to somehow deny they are as susceptible to whatever befell the person who is sharing.
I wonder whether the ability to control the post will somehow change this situation.
With respect to my own last few accidents, I can't say there was much which was worthwhile sharing. The mistakes I made which led to the accidents were obvious to me (ignored sign indicating loose gravel ahead, ignored warnings about fresh chip and seal, over rode my ability to see in a challenging lighting situation) and I'm pretty sure everyone who was with me. Maybe this is the issue with sharing. At some level, if the person is sharing and looking for feedback, it means they made a mistake, but somehow they didn't get the mistake they made and are somehow looking for an explanation, other than they made a mistake (think of Ian's post in this context). The vast majority of posts I can remember seeking to share moments, invariable seek to explain accidents by performance failures (those XYZ tires just don't provide enough traction) or by blaming them on others, or by blaming them on road conditions.
Lots of good points here. I think my goals when creating this thread were a couple fold:
1) Give myself and other riders an opportunity to share their experiences and learnings, not make excuses or look for affirmation that it wasn't their fault or have others explain to them what happened. Often times the "learnings" are just reminders of good habits to maintain in daily riding, a few of which have been mentioned above. I probably should have used that terminology when I started the topic. I believe that in 98%+ of MC accidents the rider at fault, and is usually 100% at fault, including every one of mine.
2) Keep the conversation around safety "fresh" and relevant. Beyond my statement above about the rider's responsibility in their own accident, I believe that accidents are caused by a limited number relatively common errors that are made. Arguably, most MC riders know not to make these dozen? or so errors, yet they continue to happen. Having a place where they are discussed in the context of real situations might keep them more at the forefront of people's minds. I bet after reading your recount of the loose gravel sign above, riders here will think twice the next time they pass one.
My most recent re-learning was about how slick wet grass is. This past summer I was pulling out of grass I knew was wet and onto the pavement, and was excited to get moving. I gave the bike some gas while the rear wheel was still in the grass. Before I knew it, I was ass-over-teakettle lying on the road and my thumb was royally broken. Did I know that wet grass is slick? Yep. Was it my fault? Yep. Was it stupid? Yep. Will other riders think of it the next time their bike is on grass? Hopefully.
Important learnings/reminders for me from this incident:
--Wet grass is really, really slippery. Take extra care.
--Don't let your excitement get the best of your judgement.
--Even with insurance, "minor" injuries can be ridiculously expensive, like 10+ sets of tires expensive.
--If you break a bone in your hand during peak riding season in MN, you will probably not be on a bike for another 9 or 10 months...
Last, I am acutely aware that this conversation has the potential to take a turn for the dark side. I hope that doesn't happen and that people will approach it with the above points in mind. I will do my best to moderate it to avoid this happening but if it gets out of control I will nuke it. The conversation needs to stay positive and on topic.
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FWhen I think of near misses one particular day comes to mind. I was traveling down cty rd 42 heading towards AV and crossing the intersection of Hwy 3. It's two lanes wide and I was in the right lane. While I was IN the intersection some idiot in a minivan making a right hand turn pulled out in front of me without bothering to look. I was probably cruising 50 something. I quickly hit both the front and back breaks and swerved into the left lane. I didn't have time to look first but I knew there had been no traffic behind me for the last few miles. I took a chance and got lucky. Immediately afterwards I realized it was dumb to switch lanes without looking but it all happened so fast I just reacted. I tend to be more cautious at intersections now especially since that is still pretty fresh in my mind.
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I concur with Brent's #4 and have a story about my brother doing this exact thing, plus an interesting group dynamic / group pass mixed in.
4. Many crashes are the result of the rider "giving up" and riding off the road, rather than the bike's tires losing their grip on the road surface and sliding off the road.
Up near Ely, MN, about 12 miles into our 2nd day of a 4 day trip (4 riders), heading south on Hwy 1 we got behind a normal-ish car (a Buick i think, white, older, digital speedo) driving the speed limit or below. We followed him for awhile as there wasn't a good opportunity to pass and then we came to this stretch of road (way down at the other end of what you can see in the image, I'm standing near where he crashed):
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/05_Scene_looking_back_medium.jpg)
Here's a shot facing "forward" from the same location as the image above:
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/06_Scene_looking_forward1_medium.jpg)
I was leading and pulled out to pass, accelerating but not hammering it. As I went to pass the guy he floored it and I remember not expecting that, looking down and seeing that I was going 85 so I got on it and drove by, moved back over (none too close to be sure, no way he was keeping up at that point) and eased off the gas and set up for the corner in the 2nd picture above, it was marked @ 25 and I drove right through it. It wasn't anything at all to really even remember. Well, my brother, riding behind me on his SV650 had tagged along and I believe came into the same corner with more speed and less time, and looking at the skid marks now I think he turned in too early and had a bad line. He panicked, dropped anchor (if you know SV's you know this wasn't necessarily that effective) and ended up skidding off the outside corner, up near that 2nd arrow in the 2nd picture. Here are some closer-up pics:
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/07_Scene_looking_forward2_skid_marks_medium.jpg)
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/08_Scene_looking_forward3_skid_marks_medium.jpg)
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/09_Scene_looking_forward4_skid_marks_medium.jpg)
Here's some of the aftermath:
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/04_View_from_ditch_looking_back_medium.jpg)
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/12_Bike_in_woods2_medium.jpg)
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/13_Trees_and_boulder_medium.jpg)
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/02_Damage_from_front_medium.jpg)
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/01_Damage_to_oil_filter_mount_medium.jpg)
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/Oil filter with case piece1_medium.jpg)
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=Archived/2007/09%20Motorcycle_Road_Trip/to_post/Steering stop_medium.jpg)
So what did I learn, pondering this over time? People are jerks. I was well in front of the fall but had FRS radio comm with the sweep rider and he got on the horn saying "somebody fell, somebody fell" so I pulled off; the car comes up next to me and rolls down his window (thus my recollection of the digital speedo), I was expecting an earful about the pass but he just said, "Your buddy crashed back there." and drove off... BFE, the middle of nowhere way up north, my brother or a friend could have been dying there for this guys action/reaction to our pass and he just drives off.
I also learned that group passing can be unpredictable. We didn't have a "rule" about passing, it never came up. I now make it clear that people behind me should only pass when they feel comfortable and be willing to wait if anything feels weird.
I learned that people who don't ride that often should be extra cautious on trips and group rides. I don't think he'd ridden "twisties" much, had no official training or track days, and he wasn't prepared for this situation and was overconfident perhaps, and maybe "trying to keep up". Before he rode off the side he was probably going 15-20 miles per hour, perhaps less even, before he crossed the center line he was maybe down to 50, or even 40 or less, had he not panicked and fixated on a single course of action (stopping) (trust me I get this, I've done it too, I will post that story next) he clearly could have made the turn - or specifically, his bike could have made the turn. It probably could have made it without even slowing down at all.
I learned that you should bump up your insurance and make sure your paperwork is all set prior to trips. The bike should have been totalled (but less than $400 to make it rideable, he had Liability only (IIRC) so that's what we did), and he should have had medical insurance that covered more than just his MRI in Duluth (a couple fractured vertebrae). He was basically fine, you can see him up and talking to that person in the Ford Ranger, but that was chance or grace or whatever. He ended up under / next to a pine tree a bit deeper into the woods than his bike, which hit that boulder belly first (can we talk about engineering flaws here for a second - why make that oil filter post heavy duty steel and the case rim fragile aluminum? A break-away post would just be too easy I suppose).
Oh, I learned that road shoulders and ditches aren't nearly the runoff that I used to think they were. I never once gave a single thought to ending up in the trees and rocks lining the roads up there (and down here isn't much better) but even when going a reasonable speed it doesn't take much to end up badly hurt.
In fairness to my brother, he did fall at a tricky corner it seems. I was back up there a couple summers later and that tree had been smoked by an RV or something with a lot of plastic, the tree was pretty messed up and there was plastic everywhere.
a.s.
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probably about 10 years ago, i was so excited to start riding again after a long winter and was a little too pumped
i was weaving in my lane going about 35 and had the wrong combination of throttle and compression of the suspension, and my body and head was turned just looking at the georgeous spring trees developing.
next thing i know, i had a tankslapper at about 40mph. sad but was lucky that i didn't go down. even when going slow and what I thought was a casual and leisure pace enjoying the roses, bad combination of factors could have put me down.
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I guess the new safety section isn't such a hit???