mn-msta.com
General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Ray916MN on June 22, 2011, 08:57:30 PM
-
I can't remember a time when we have gotten so far into the riding season without having an accident on a group ride. Either we have been very lucky this year or we are doing some right, or most likely it is a bit of both.
What have we been doing right? What can we do better?
At the very least, I hope this post helps everyone remember to ride safe while having fun this summer.
-
Your question does beg the description of "what is an accident?" Because in my description of accident-I wouldn't say we are accident free.
Perhaps everyone is finally "getting it" ( a few "harsch" lectures in the past at the pre ride gathering?)- the disappointment on everyones face after an off, perhaps our selective non cross posting and many of the "occassional" riders haven't actually joined a ride yet, plus the weather hasn't cooperated for the most part-so I know my miles ridden to date are down significantly from most years. ( It is damn near July and I am only at 5600- and I cheated and rode in Texas in January)
Sunday will have a short lecture before the ride, due in large part to 1 "new" rider to the group, he will be part of my group. But it will be a reminder to everyone of expectations and some general courtiousness to the other participating riders. ( following distances, riding YOUR ride instead of just following the leader etc...)
It would be great if we actually went a season without incident, and hopefully if nothing else we can go the season with no serious injuries.
-
I agree with Lloyd, that a short lecture giving everyone a heads up, that this aint no race, and to keep the ego's in check is a good idea. Also I was on one of these rides and one of my friends was told he was riding too close for his first time riding with this crew (problem solved) If you are a respected rider and you put your foot down when someone is ridin like a dill weed, it should only be looked at as the right thing to do. I would rather have someone say, knock it off or go home, rather than I new the guy was gonna crash, he was ridin like an idiot.
MD
-
I think it helps that we keep these rides here only and yes quest are most welcome. There are others that are on other forum that do come on these ride but I think the know that it is a much differant pace here. For one we ride mostly in the double digits and they ride mostly WFO. I go on some of their rides. Also because we are yes a little bit older that we will speak up and tell some one that they are doing something that they shouldn't be doing. On the other forums they seem to except this behavior. They are getting it now because I been yelling at some of them for this in front of every one. In fact on one ride I am told this one rider had seven others with and all turned around and went home because of the way he was riding. Good for them. Any one of us can crash at any time but at least we try to lower the risk.
-
Ray, I'm glad that the rides have been "uneventful". I seldom ride with groups because I hade seeing other people crash due to "testosterone poisoning". Lloyd, I'm not sure I agree with your premise that we are getting better because we are getting older. A couple of the riders on the list have had offs on an organized ride, however not a MN MSTA ride. [That info is from what has been posted on another website].
If you are having success, it may well be from helping individuals understand before the ride what "ride your own ride means". I gave that lecture before a group ride I led a couple years ago. One rider was so pissed at the end because of our pace and that they were way over their head keeping up. They since have sold their Bandit and ride a moped! I now spend a lot more time explaining what "ride your own ride" looks and FEELS like. I do the similar look and feel talk at the track when someone throws out "hold your line" without explaining it to a new track rider.
Congrats on the good record and keep it up!
-
Measure chicken strip usage prior to each ride and judge accordingly :P
I'm "new" to this forum so I guess I don't have much say but the best thing i've learned is leaving the cocky-ness at home. No matter how good any of us think we are, there's always gonna be some guy better, faster and more experienced. Trying to keep up with said guy can....will be disastrous.
-
No matter how good any of us think we are, there's always gonna be some guy better, faster and more experienced. Trying to keep up with said guy can....will be disastrous.
IMO the best thing said :)
-
Well not to make light of the situation, but this has been shot all to hell.
I have on the last several outings, taken the time to follow pretty much everyone and video them...I have been making these videos into DVD's for each person to do their own self critique. ( This is a pain in the ass- dumping the entire video to a flash drive would be much easier)
I find if you actually view these and honestly critique your own riding, you could be your own best weapon in improving your riding.
Of course you do have to know what you are looking at and what to do to actually correct any areas you can improve upon.
There are several riders who have had numerous questions for many members of the forum in their efforts to improve their riding. This is a good thing and I applaud them for continueing in their riding skills advancement, but too much is too much at some point one can only stand to talk about that side of motorcycling for so long.
I know many members are more than willing to help others out, but remember most of us are really out riding for the enjoyment of riding not to try to "teach". Even though pretty much everyone is willing to answer questions and dispense advice- out of respect for everyone on the rides this time should be kept to aminimum and not made to be the sole purpose or topic on the rides (unless it is posted as such a ride)
Which speaking of.........I will be doing another one of my introductory rides like last year, with the main difference being-you will get about 20-30 minutes of video footage of yourself...you supply me with a flashdrive of atleast 4GB (you will get it back for yourself) Watch for a post on this in the next week or so
-
If we define a crash as anytime the bike is damaged through contact with the ground or an object,
I have crashed 3 times this season. :'(
-
If we define a crash as anytime the bike is damaged through contact with the ground or an object,
I have crashed 3 times this season. :'(
if i add moving to the definition that should help you :-\
-
If we define a crash as anytime the bike is damaged through contact with the ground or an object,
I have crashed 3 times this season. :'(
Your bike highsiding itself in the wind in front of The Creamary while you are inside getting an ice cream cone is hardly a crash.
Why you surely could have parked differently or any number of circumstances could have happened to avoid this---it still is not a crash..........
The Deer---well you didn't fall down or run into a tree, a pole, a car a truck etc....and yes your bike suffered significant damage...I would not consider this a crash either, although its drawing a fine distinction as to "fault" in my opinion---as nearly any circumstance could be changed with a "if only" (I had been going 5 mph slower or faster, or not passed that car or passed that car, or.......)
So stop beating yourself up over a tip over where you were not even within sight of the bike and a deer running into the side of your bike....just my .02
-
TK's not beating himself up. He's bragging about surviving another attempt from the grim reaper (although I don't think the reaper had anything to do with the Creamery tipover, probably just God ticked at his cholesterol habit, LOL)
-
TK's not beating himself up. He's bragging about surviving another attempt from the grim reaper (although I don't think the reaper had anything to do with the Creamery tipover, probably just God ticked at his cholesterol habit, LOL)
LOL +1
-
Boy is this ever shot to hell for the season!! I don't know if its the amount of miles people are putting on or the locations we are all riding in but there seems to be a lot of crashes lately.
I've heard about two this weekend & it isn't even over yet!! Over the past few years it seemed that the people crashing were the younger less experienced crowd from "other" forums. But this year its all over the board.
That could be due to a lot of people being on more than one forum but in general, lately the crashes are people I would think weren't prone to that sort of thing. Maybe it's time for each of us to take a long look at how we ride & maybe take some experienced rider courses or something.
I know the solution to this is going to vary person to person but I know I'm going to be taking it a bit easier when I ride the rest of this season.
-
Track crash
Deer hit
hardly cause to sound the alarm IMO
glad they faired okay to ride another day
-
two crashes in the last week that I know of, not counting the deer and track.
-
I didn't know about the track crash at all....was it DCTC? Those don't count I would think.
I was talking about the one on 95 outside Arcadia Sat afternoon where the rider was airlifted.
-
Perhaps I am just used to hearing about atleast 4 or 5 crashes every week for the past several years
Many of these are easily predictable just on how the people ride, some are just a fluke occurances and some are understandable in the nature of the spirited riding done and the locations of said riding, others are nature fighting back....lol
I am pretty sure that most members on here certainly do their own version of risk management and ride within some boundaries they set for themselves...I only know of a couple members who routinely go ride triple digits, most are pretty conservative "pace" riders...or atleast those I ride with regularly
The 3 deer hits from members of this forum this year hopefully is an anomily and not a new trend.
The airlifted biker in Arcadia--that was a cruiser woman from that area wasn't it?? She crashed by following another biker into a bridge or something--(not from this forum)--not that I am trying to be insensitive to her injuries or anything
-
The airlift biker was on his wife new bike. It was a speed triple that was new to her and not a new bike.
-
I think I knew that rider who was airlifted. He usually rode a new VFR. Hope he is okay.
We've had our share of crashes on rides posted on this forum. A Honda comming back from TWISTAR, a Kawi at STAR and more recently a crash on Goodhue 7. I think it is just the nature
of the activity that there will be some crashing. Long, tiring rides on fast bikes on challenging
roads is more dangerous than cruising along a straight road for a 2 hour ride on a Harley. Just
my .02.
-
I think I knew that rider who was airlifted. He usually rode a new VFR. Hope he is okay.
We've had our share of crashes on rides posted on this forum. A Honda comming back from TWISTAR, a Kawi at STAR and more recently a crash on Goodhue 7. I think it is just the nature
of the activity that there will be some crashing. Long, tiring rides on fast bikes on challenging
roads is more dangerous than cruising along a straight road for a 2 hour ride on a Harley. Just
my .02.
Thats a very good .02
-
. Long, tiring rides on fast bikes on challenging
roads is more dangerous than cruising along a straight road for a 2 hour ride on a Harley. Just
my .02.
I'll agree with this and also say ... A long tiring day on challenging roads ridden at a brisk pace also requires a more advanced set of riding skills then tooling along on a cruiser 15mph below posted speeds. (and there's nothing wrong with tooling along at a snails pace, if that's what you enjoy)
Greg
-
I think I knew that rider who was airlifted. He usually rode a new VFR. Hope he is okay.
We've had our share of crashes on rides posted on this forum. A Honda comming back from TWISTAR, a Kawi at STAR and more recently a crash on Goodhue 7. I think it is just the nature
of the activity that there will be some crashing. Long, tiring rides on fast bikes on challenging
roads is more dangerous than cruising along a straight road for a 2 hour ride on a Harley. Just
my .02.
+1
-
There is a distinction which needs to be made in the discussion. There are "forced" and "unforced" riding errors.
A forced error is one where the rider is pretty much powerless to avoid an accident. Although I believe we must always take some responsibility for accidents, there are mitigating factors which may make it basically impossible for a rider to do anything to avoid an accident, aside from not riding. An example of a forced accident might be a drunk driver coming across the center line on blind turn.
An unforced error is one where a rider screws up and has an accident while riding in normal riding conditions and situations. An example of an unforced accident might be when a rider fails to negotiate a sharp turn traveling at the suggested speed for the turn, without any road surface issues or other extraordinary reasons for crashing like an oncoming vehicle in the lane of travel, fallen tree limb or animal crossing the road.
Luck has allot to do with forced errors, luck has little to do with unforced errors. While allot of riding, just like roiling the dice often increases the likelihood of crapping out in the game of craps, raises the likelihood of forced errors, lack of experience, and good judgement raises the likelihood of unforced errors.
We need to be hypercritical in looking at our accidents to learn from our mistakes and we need to take advantage of the accidents of others and learn from them, as this is the cheapest way to learn. For example, the forced error example of drunk driver over the yellow in a blind turn is a real example of something which happened to a rider many of us know. The lesson the rider learned and shared with the rest of us: don't ride in Wisconsin when the Packers have just finished playing a game as the likelihood of drunks being on the road is increased.
Hopefully this forum and discussion will help us all develop the experience and judgement to distinguish between forced and unforced errors and how what most might consider a forced error, might be considered an unforced error. The more we find successful ways to consider forced errors are unforced errors, the less our riding safety depends on luck.
-
Maybe it's time for each of us to take a long look at how we ride & maybe take some experienced rider courses or something.
Really? Maybe we should all wrap ourselves in bubble wrap, sell our motorcycles and take up knitting? But then, when one of us gets a prick on the finger, you'll want to ban knitting needles too! LMAO!
Also, I've probably taken twice as many experienced rider courses this season than I have during the last 5 yrs combined. I think that was an ignorant statement.
On another note, if you hear about someone crashing, instead of theroizing about what happened or asking someone else, why not get it directly from the person involved and not go FISHING for answers to your questions.
LIFE is SHORT, LIVE your PASSION!
-
There is a distinction which needs to be made in the discussion. There are "forced" and "unforced" riding errors.
A forced error is one where the rider is pretty much powerless to avoid an accident. Although I believe we must always take some responsibility for accidents, there are mitigating factors which may make it basically impossible for a rider to do anything to avoid an accident, aside from not riding. An example of a forced accident might be a drunk driver coming across the center line on blind turn.
An unforced error is one where a rider screws up and has an accident while riding in normal riding conditions and situations. An example of an unforced accident might be when a rider fails to negotiate a sharp turn traveling at the suggested speed for the turn, without any road surface issues or other extraordinary reasons for crashing like an oncoming vehicle in the lane of travel, fallen tree limb or animal crossing the road.
Luck has allot to do with forced errors, luck has little to do with unforced errors. While allot of riding, just like roiling the dice often increases the likelihood of crapping out in the game of craps, raises the likelihood of forced errors, lack of experience, and good judgement raises the likelihood of unforced errors.
We need to be hypercritical in looking at our accidents to learn from our mistakes and we need to take advantage of the accidents of others and learn from them, as this is the cheapest way to learn. For example, the forced error example of drunk driver over the yellow in a blind turn is a real example of something which happened to a rider many of us know. The lesson the rider learned and shared with the rest of us: don't ride in Wisconsin when the Packers have just finished playing a game as the likelihood of drunks being on the road is increased.
Hopefully this forum and discussion will help us all develop the experience and judgement to distinguish between forced and unforced errors and how what most might consider a forced error, might be considered an unforced error. The more we find successful ways to consider forced errors are unforced errors, the less our riding safety depends on luck.
Great post, Ray.
Over my 13 seasons of street riding I'd guesstimate of the "accidents" I've witnessed, 40% were forced and 60% were unforced.
-
It seems to me there are a lot of crashes this year, but the number of people I ride with has increased dramatically. Also in my opinion the outcome of a crash has very little to do with a riders level of experience. I have seen people with just a couple of year experience go down a 120mph get up and walk away. Rider with tons of riding time, and in my opinion very good riders, go down at 40mph and get all busted up. One time a guy flew 8ft in the air, came down in a bunch of trees, he was gurgling in his own blood, was air lifted out, didn't come too till the next day, they cut him loose from the hospital the next day. The one thing these guys all had in commin, besides riding bikes, none of them remembered what happened. So in my opinion what they say about your brain not letting you witness your own demise is true in most cases. It is the luck of the draw where you crash, there is no getting good at crashing, unless your in a controlled environment like the track. Ego's have more to do with the way we ride than any other factor, and I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else. Since I have been riding with faster, better riders, I do things I would never do on my own, so in my opinion it is my ego that pushes me to try and keep up,and ultimately will be the cause of my crashing.
-
pushes me to try and keep up,and ultimately will be the cause of my crashing.
This is why there are route sheets.
(Mike, The following thought is directed at "the motorcycle community as a whole" and not you specifically)
Let's pretend that a person goes to a rock climbing event. The organizers of the event have 3 cliffs marked off with signs that read "Beginner", "Intermediate", "Advanced". This pretend person goes to that event with 6 buddies, all of which have done this climb many times and the 6 buddies go over to the "advanced" cliff. It takes intellectual and emotional "smarts" for the pretend person to NOT follow his buddies over to the advanced cliff if it is said person's first time at the event.
No "crashes" are inevitable unless very poor choices are made.
*edit*
To the group: Do not be mistaken that I'm assuming in my post that just because someone rides "faster" that they are therefor "advanced". That clearly isn't the case.
-
Maybe it's time for each of us to take a long look at how we ride & maybe take some experienced rider courses or something.
An ERC isn't really a solution to the reasons riders crash. ERC is good to renew good habits and have an instructor watch to see what bad ones you've developed. It's done a relatively low speeds in a parking lot. I don't see this translating into a solution for a rider over braking in a very fast corner or following too closely.
I know the solution to this is going to vary person to person but I know I'm going to be taking it a bit easier when I ride the rest of this season.
That IS the solution for a number of riders. The problem is where to draw the line for someone who is consistently riding over their head. But what do I know, I spent yesterday riding around taking pictures of dams (smell the flowers rider.)
BTW, you can go back and read the posting from MN-Sportbike from 10 years ago and you will find EXACTLY the same discussions that summer. A number of those riders went into club racing.
-
Greg, with all due respect you confuse me, in one post you say
It's always possible to find a person who has an opinion that may differ from another persons choice they made.
then you turn around and say
No "crashes" are inevitable unless very poor choices are made.
what I am reading is in one thread your saying that a persons choice to ride on bad tires is there opinion, and they should not be called on it, then you turn around and say that crashes are not inevitable unless very poor choices are made, after just saying it was there own choice.
-
Greg, with all due respect you confuse me, in one post you say
It's always possible to find a person who has an opinion that may differ from another persons choice they made.
then you turn around and say
No "crashes" are inevitable unless very poor choices are made.
what I am reading is in one thread your saying that a persons choice to ride on bad tires is there opinion, and they should not be called on it, then you turn around and say that crashes are not inevitable unless very poor choices are made, after just saying it was there own choice.
Chris,
I'm sorry you're going down the road of "gotcha" politics. Feel free to scour my posts at all 3 major forums (same nik everywhere) and I'm sure you'll be able to uncover more inconsistencies.
I'll gladly discuss this at greater lengthy on any future rides as past experience (10 years on motorcycle forums) has taught me points made in a post can be misunderstood. (case in point :))
Greg
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
-
Just curious... how many of you regularly hit triple digit speeds on your rides? Even for a moment...
Are triple digits an expectation on your rides?
I don't, I rarely get over 80-85mph
-
Just curious... how many of you regularly hit triple digit speeds on your rides? Even for a moment...
Are triple digits an expectation on your rides?
I haven't regularly hit 100mph on rides in several years. I didn't once yesterday.
"Are triple digits an expectation on your rides?" Of course not. Route sheets / ride your own ride / ad nauseam. :)
-
Just curious... how many of you regularly hit triple digit speeds on your rides? Even for a moment...
Are triple digits an expectation on your rides?
PM sent!
-
Just curious... how many of you regularly hit triple digit speeds on your rides? Even for a moment...
Are triple digits an expectation on your rides?
PM sent!
Hey now!! lol
I've followed you and thought it was a pretty enjoyable place to be.
a.s.
-
PM sent as well
But my forum answer, group rides I adhere strictly to a "pace" ride and only on very few select roads will I approach that speed-but refuse to surpass it. And I do expect others to ride "pace" or less on my rides...I frown on people who try to pass me and take over my rides or blast down some road cuz they think they know it better etc.... If I on someone elses ride and they ride too fast (or too slow) I always have the option to ride the ride on my own at my own pace how I want........this is what this forum and our rides is (or should be) all about--RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE, THUS THE ROUTE SHEETS, AT NAUSEA....LOL
Riding by myself, I ride how my mood and conditions dictate.....more times than not it is still pace, manytimes less than pace, occassionally more
I personally hugely frown upon any triple digit speeds on a "group ride" (really anytime, but I can't cast too many stones), as far too many will be hard pressed to keep that pace without crossing the yellow, drifting into oncoming trafic lanes, excessive braking and excessive acceleration....etc.........It just opens up an entirely new level of dangers and risks, and unwanted attention !
I hate to say it but......if you need to ride in excess of triple digits, you need to find a closed course circuit to ride on and should give up street riding (for your own safety if for no other reason, although I could list many !)
-
Just curious... how many of you regularly hit triple digit speeds on your rides? Even for a moment...
Are triple digits an expectation on your rides?
I virtually never hit triple digit speeds on rides.
OTOH, I kind of like it when people I'm riding with pass and run triple digits speeds and take over leading. I found there aren't many better way to avoid getting tickets than having someoine in front of you running a much faster pace. Kind of like having a mine sweeper in front of you in a minefield. Unfortunately I can't remember the last time someone on a ride did this.
-
"Over my 13 seasons of street riding I'd guesstimate of the "accidents" I've witnessed, 40% were forced and 60% were unforced."
My experience (way over 30 years now)is about 1% "forced" and 99% "unforced"--but everyones defination of same will vary....
my deer hits-unforced, I could have done things differently to avoid them- I did what I thought best (in those 1-2 seconds) to mitigate the damages to myself and the bike- but still ended up hitting the deer...I wasn't forced into making a stupid choice, I was forced to make a choice, which I did and only I could control that decision...my deer hits, my fault. (granted the options (in the time allowed to decide) did not look more promising)
I have hit gravel in a turn and couldn't even see it and fallen...that isn't a forced error, I should have seen it, should have gone slower, should have done many things differently...gravel, sand, decreasing radius turn those are all unforced errors, nobody forced you to hit any of it or ride wide or, or, or.....
I have had roads end on me , I should have seen and recognized sooner, I ended up riding into gravel that I should have been able to stop prior to getting to---these aren't forced errors, road signs or not, shadows or not...These are unforced errors, situations I should have recognized earlier and been able to avoid.
A forced error--Tonys deer coming out of nowhere and running into the side of his bike.... a car suddenly swerving into your lane as you meet (drunk or otherwise)....a tree branch falling on the road right in front of you giving you little options but to hit it or go around in the gravel and risk "loosing control" or run into oncoming traffic etc....this list (forced errors) is extremely short..IMO
-
Just curious... how many of you regularly hit triple digit speeds on your rides? Even for a moment...
Are triple digits an expectation on your rides?
Rarely. I save that for BIR. 80-85 is about right. Unfortunately, the cops don't see it that way. LOL!
-
"Over my 13 seasons of street riding I'd guesstimate of the "accidents" I've witnessed, 40% were forced and 60% were unforced."
My experience (way over 30 years now)is about 1% "forced" and 99% "unforced"--but everyones defination of same will vary....
my deer hits-unforced, I could have done things differently to avoid them- I did what I thought best (in those 1-2 seconds) to mitigate the damages to myself and the bike- but still ended up hitting the deer...I wasn't forced into making a stupid choice, I was forced to make a choice, which I did and only I could control that decision...my deer hits, my fault. (granted the options (in the time allowed to decide) did not look more promising)
I have hit gravel in a turn and couldn't even see it and fallen...that isn't a forced error, I should have seen it, should have gone slower, should have done many things differently...gravel, sand, decreasing radius turn those are all unforced errors, nobody forced you to hit any of it or ride wide or, or, or.....
I have had roads end on me , I should have seen and recognized sooner, I ended up riding into gravel that I should have been able to stop prior to getting to---these aren't forced errors, road signs or not, shadows or not...These are unforced errors, situations I should have recognized earlier and been able to avoid.
A forced error--Tonys deer coming out of nowhere and running into the side of his bike.... a car suddenly swerving into your lane as you meet (drunk or otherwise)....a tree branch falling on the road right in front of you giving you little options but to hit it or go around in the gravel and risk "loosing control" or run into oncoming traffic etc....this list (forced errors) is extremely short..IMO
+1
My last 3 crashes on gravel were unforced errors.
-
I kind of like it when people I'm riding with pass and run triple digits speeds and take over leading. I found there aren't many better way to avoid getting tickets than having someoine in front of you running a much faster pace. Kind of like having a mine sweeper in front of you in a minefield.
Ray, My experience is different. I must have low testosterone, because I usually hang out towards the back on group rides. One reason I dislike some "testosterone poisoned" rides (that I have joined) is that any officer, who sees multiple bikes going past above the speed limit, will pull over the first rider they can and that is often the tail rider (me). He/she will not just look to catch up to the fastest rider. Your plan works if you leave tons of space between you and the "rabbit" so that the officer puts themselves between you and the "lead rider". I often speed up in the car when I get passed by a faster vehicle as you describe.
-
OTOH, I kind of like it when people I'm riding with pass and run triple digits speeds and take over leading. I found there aren't many better way to avoid getting tickets than having someone in front of you running a much faster pace. Kind of like having a mine sweeper in front of you in a minefield.
So that's why you let me lead some times.
-
I kind of like it when people I'm riding with pass and run triple digits speeds and take over leading. I found there aren't many better way to avoid getting tickets than having someoine in front of you running a much faster pace. Kind of like having a mine sweeper in front of you in a minefield.
Ray, My experience is different. I must have low testosterone, because I usually hang out towards the back on group rides. One reason I dislike some "testosterone poisoned" rides (that I have joined) is that any officer, who sees multiple bikes going past above the speed limit, will pull over the first rider they can and that is often the tail rider (me). He/she will not just look to catch up to the fastest rider. Your plan works if you leave tons of space between you and the "rabbit" so that the officer puts themselves between you and the "lead rider". I often speed up in the car when I get passed by a faster vehicle as you describe.
Anyone who goes by me doing triple digits is going to be way in front of me if they keep it up and aren't slow in turns. If I wanted to be going triple digits, I'd be going triple digits. The fact that someone passes me makes no difference to my riding, unless they pass me and then hold me up in turns.
Testosterone? I haven't been on a ride in a long long time when I felt like it was testosterone driven. There is a reason why most if not all rides posted on this forum and no longer cross posted on other forums. I'd hang in the back more if others would lead more, but I'm not sure that there is any intrinsic correlation between where you ride in a group and the level of testosterone. At a smelling the flowers pace or any other controlled pace, someone has to be in front, someone has to be in the middle and someone has to be in the back.
I think your experience is the same as mine, but your assumptions or conclusions about group riding are entirely different than mine.
-
OTOH, I kind of like it when people I'm riding with pass and run triple digits speeds and take over leading. I found there aren't many better way to avoid getting tickets than having someone in front of you running a much faster pace. Kind of like having a mine sweeper in front of you in a minefield.
So that's why you let me lead some times.
As if I could or would stop you from leading....
I really enjoy rides where people just spontaneously take over leading. Makes for more interesting group riding in my opinion.
-
Just curious... how many of you regularly hit triple digit speeds on your rides? Even for a moment...
Are triple digits an expectation on your rides?
I don't, I rarely get over 80-85mph
ditto, especially when I'm riding with a group larger than 4 people.
-
It’s interesting to see how motorcycling relates so differently to each individual. In a recent post, spirited riding is referred to as “testosterone poisoned” riding. I suppose for some that might be an accurate description, and I bet there are other descriptions as well. Let's hear from others!
For me, if you were to put those electrode thingys on my melon ( :P) when I’m riding, I suspect the readings would almost be that I was sedated. When I’m carving up HWY 123, Hwy 14, or Push Mountain Road in Arkansas I’m so focused on doing the one task at the moment, that I’m completely at peace and “in the moment”. It’s almost “restful”.
I suppose that's the "zen" effect so often referred to in motorcycle circles.
Asleep at the wheel (behind the bars),
Greg
-
I suppose that's the "zen" effect so often referred to in motorcycle circles.
I always called it "in the zone". It's almost like a pheromone, last year when I was
riding Big Thompson Canyon in CO, the riding was so perfect I hated for it to end. And
makes me anxious to get back there next week.
-
It’s interesting to see how motorcycling relates so differently to each individual. In a recent post, spirited riding is referred to as “testosterone poisoned” riding. I suppose for some that might be an accurate description, and I bet there are other descriptions as well. Let's hear from others!
Oh boy...
Well I've been around all sorts of cultures/groups; but I’ve only been on sportbikes for about 14 or so years.
So the types of rides that I have attended?
Squid rides with barely any gear chasing girls in Anoka
Mixed rides with vintage bikes/cruisers/sportbikes
All cruiser rides where I’ll trade out a sportbike for an HD
Long hauls staying overnight with 14 hour long riding sessions
St Croix/Mississippi Valley riding (the fabled twisties)
Interstate/ highway/ county roads/ dirt roads
I love it all.
BUT… I have discovered in my old age that I am not a fan of the “look what I can do” types of rides anymore. It used to not bug me, but it kind of does now. And I think this is what Ian is talking about (the testosterone rides).
It’s the inadequacy issues of the rider(s) that just reeks of desperation; makes the whole thing kinda awkward (especially when they crash).
Not sure if that's what you meant, Greg.
If that's your experiences, then that's your reality.
I'd like to expand on the highlighted quotes in your post. Take for example the folks that meet (at least used to, do they still?) along 394 in St. Louis Park and ride obnoxiously down 394/94 over to St. Paul and back, zipping in & out of traffic. Is that the type of riding you put in that category? I know I sure would. Not a whole lot of talent (or smarts) taking place with that type of riding. But then again, others may see it differently. I guess where I draw the line with some guys style of riding is that I feel they are overtly endangering others and not just themselves, which crosses an ethical line IMO.
Also, I guess in my above post I'm looking for the "esoteric" experiences of motorcycling and how it rewards each individual rider.
-
I always called it "in the zone". It's almost like a pheromone, last year when I was
riding Big Thompson Canyon in CO, the riding was so perfect I hated for it to end. And
makes me anxious to get back there next week.
Love that feeling.
-
Chris,
I'm sorry you're going down the road of "gotcha" politics. Feel free to scour my posts at all 3 major forums (same nik everywhere) and I'm sure you'll be able to uncover more inconsistencies.
I'll gladly discuss this at greater lengthy on any future rides as past experience (10 years on motorcycle forums) has taught me points made in a post can be misunderstood. (case in point :))
Greg
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Greg, you got defensive, I was just pointing out to you, that your readers are getting confused if they follow you on this forum (not talking about other forums and not talking about years ago, these are both newish posts). following your statements it appears that your on both sides of the argument.
-
.... or with one other rider that I trust explicitly (like Ian).
That's funny, Liz said the same thing to me about 15 months ago. Say, how old is your kid anyway? :-X :o ;D
-
I got some interesting replies on MSBR & T.A. about seeing a crashed bike on CR O going home from monday's ride. One fellow said who hasn't crashed on O? I think/hope his reply was tongue in cheek. GJ ::)
-
I got some interesting replies on MSBR & T.A. about seeing a crashed bike on CR O going home from monday's ride. One fellow said who hasn't crashed on O? I think/hope his reply was tongue in cheek. GJ ::)
Right, it was tongue in cheek, didn't think it needed explanation. Such drama over there.
-
Ugh... the moderating staff there is SO lazy.
Say, wasn't there a moderator over there with the same screen name as you have? ::)
Sorry, back to the original subject of riding crash free.
-
I got some interesting replies on MSBR & T.A. about seeing a crashed bike on CR O going home from monday's ride. One fellow said who hasn't crashed on O? I think/hope his reply was tongue in cheek. GJ ::)
Right, it was tongue in cheek, didn't think it needed explanation. Such drama over there.
created by 2 people from over here :/ i've been on a lot of forums and i'd say the drama-level here isn't much (if any) lower than anywhere else.
as far as reducing risks for the rest of this year, i think we need to increase our following distance slightly and be more willing to slow down / concede a position if we aren't comfortable at any given time (i've seen some "uncomfortable" people on mn-msta rides and i doubt they'd admit it). futhermore, i've witnessed some passing (of cars) that made me cringe and i think a teeny-bit more patience as we select times to pass would really improve our chances.
i'm not pointing fingers, trust me, i've made/make my share of bad decisions, just describing a bit of what i've seen. if someone was watching me they might say i run a bit hot on the more common roads, but i hope they'd say i run unfamiliar roads slower than most, and i hope they'd see consistently better than average decisions specifically being made around other people / cars / bikes. <shrug />
a.s.
-
oh yeah, you know when we need to get our guard up is when something unusual happens.
i made a series of bad decisions, needlessly risking others in our group, albeit travelling slowly in fairly straight line, right after lloyd got lost once. i knew where we were but wasn't quite sure if he broke from the route on purpose or not. i should have just waited it out rather than distracting others and moving around in the group. erich saved the day at a stop sign with a quick re-route thanks to his GPS, my choices did nothing good that i know of.
a.s.
-
Well, if my comment is drama, then what is real drama. I guess my point was missed. I read the Red Wing and Ellsworth on-line news and the crash rate on County O is pretty bad. The statement I made, "who hasn't crashed on County O" was a rhetorical question that was intended to highlight this fact. Wasn't meant to insult, inflame or put-down anyone and it seems some readers want to act overly sensitive about what would otherwise be a topic worthy of discussion. Labeling this as drama seems to dismiss that opportunity altogether.
-
I like Pizza and Pasta in the same meal. Just so you know. ......
We are getting way off track but the discussions are good.
I like how this forum is suddenly alive with thought. And I appreciate the opinions...even if I differ.
Bottom line is, these points being made need to be "re-highlighted" every now and then.
Keeps us in check and is kinda like that corner you went into a little too hot, but pulled it out!!
Let the chips drop and enjoy the riding. Productive discussion by all. thx.
-
"a short lecture giving everyone a heads up, that this aint no race, and to keep the ego's in check is a good idea. Also I was on one of these rides and one of my friends was told he was riding too close for his first time riding with this crew (problem solved) If you are a respected rider and you put your foot down when someone is ridin like a dill weed, it should only be looked at as the right thing to do. I would rather have someone say, knock it off or go home, rather than I new the guy was gonna crash, he was ridin like an idiot."
While most of the regular leaders have given a lecture or two, have had to say something to a rider or two, this should not be an expected event...believe me raising my voice and getting all pissy with someone or a group of someones isn't my idea of a good time, pre ride or anytime.....and my trigger----I can raise my voice at a moments notice with little provacation.
Many members have their "favorites" to ride with, this is generally riders who one really enjoys (personally or just conversationally) and ride very similarly. None of those riders require being lectured and shouldn't.
So if a lecture is "required" at the beginning or during a ride then it is likely you have the wrong group of riders along----the wrong group of riders can lead to stress, distractions, and an overall not so enjoyable event-which causes people to not attend, not lead and not participate and potentially could increase the chances of a crash.
* I understand growing a group, a community or whatever...I am glad we don't invite the "other" forums to join in any longer-
-
I've been banished 8)
-
No not from that one, the other two. I sort of banished myself.
-
No not from that one, the other two. I sort of banished myself.
Mike,
banish = moderator stops you posting
bored = stopping yourself posting
I've been bored with a couple of other local sites and only got banished from Triumphrat.net - 1 year for speaking my mind about a moderator. I still like MNSTA and MNSBR. I've got a thick skin and don't tend to get my panties in a knot, so I still enjoy MNSBR.
-
We need to be hypercritical in looking at our accidents to learn from our mistakes and we need to take advantage of the accidents of others and learn from them, as this is the cheapest way to learn. For example, the forced error example of drunk driver over the yellow in a blind turn is a real example of something which happened to a rider many of us know. The lesson the rider learned and shared with the rest of us: don't ride in Wisconsin when the Packers have just finished playing a game as the likelihood of drunks being on the road is increased.
Hopefully this forum and discussion will help us all develop the experience and judgement to distinguish between forced and unforced errors and how what most might consider a forced error, might be considered an unforced error. The more we find successful ways to consider forced errors are unforced errors, the less our riding safety depends on luck.
Ray, you make a good point. On another forum I am on (ADVrider) which, granted, is a VERY large board, there is a section dedicated to "Face Plant". Not that crashes are considered to be a badge of honor, but rather, they can become learning experience for ourselves and others. Talking through things and learning from others' experiences can also rediret ones' thoughts to think about things differntly. There's no shame in discussing what has happened, as long as we learn from it.
Just my $0.02.
Greg
-
No not from that one, the other two. I sort of banished myself.
For which I applaud you.
And look who makes there first post after lurking for 7+ hours...lol.........welcome to the conversation
-
Lloyd I knew you'd like that one. Live and learn as they always say.
-
Sorry i couldnt keep it a crash free year. Yea im the arcadia guy. :-P
Im getting better each day here. Cant wait to get back on the saddle..
-
^ I hear you have video of the crash....do you have it posted up somewhere?
Oh and there was also a woman who crashed that day only about 2 miles the other side of 93/95 Kwik Trip--she too was air lifted after hitting a guard rail...presumably no helmet
-
Just got the video cam back today. Reviewed it and its 100% how i remeber it.
Yes raging inside.. I will post it publicly as soon as my insurance is signed sealed and delivered.
-
I thought I would revisit this thread, since 8 of the top ten "viewed" are about rides, and 2 have to do with crashing and safety.
Part of the "talk" on this thread about "members" crashing....
Not to nitpick, but a few of the "members" who crashed haven't actually joined a mn-msta ride, ever. The rides they crashed on were from those other forums. They have screen names on those other forums.
I would hardly call thier crashes a mn-msta "member" crash.
If I were to go out on one of my customers rides who are mnsbr members and crash, would that count against mnsbr or mn-msta? I mean I have a screen name on both forums (hell I think I even have a screen name on ZG) but I am only active on mn-msta..There is a definate distinction, which is glossed over by many.
In my book it doesn't count against either, I am riding and responsible for my own riding not some organization or forum.........no people I have not crashed !
I will see a few of you on Sunday.
FWIW (I like rays little hit at the end...)
I would hardly call them a member at all for that matter, a name on the list of members, does not make one a "member.
Participation makes one a member.....
So many "members" on here do all their posting and riding on those other forums. They are members there, not here, in my book.
*** Just so I am not misunderstood (cuz I often am)- I full well understand the distinction between a "new" member who actually participates (albeit limitedly since they are "new") compared to someone who has an account and user name but doesn't participate, regardless if they have any posts or even a few posts..
And YES GREG--I speak for myself as I always do !!***
-
Yea my ride doesnt really count as msta. I havnt been on any msta official rides yet.
Guess mine was a msbr crash :-P
-
Yea my ride doesnt really count as msta. I havnt been on any msta official rides yet.
Guess mine was a msbr crash :-P
No it was your crash.....in the respect that it happened to you. Oh & yes you've been on a ride on MSTA since you made a couple rides I put on last season & earlier this one.
I wish people would stop putting labels on the crashes that happen. Sure the ride starts thru one forum or another.
But the crash that happens only has to do with the people involved.
If all of us as forum participants are doing our part, we should be spreading the word about riding safety & education.
-
I wish people would stop putting labels on the crashes that happen. Sure the ride starts thru one forum or another.
But then how are we supposed to blanketly judge groups / forums? First it was put forth that we can't judge skill of an individual (one outcome of the Pace Guide and Riding Safely threads), now we can't even pin X crashes on Y group? How are we going to find or avoid like-minded or dis-similar riders?
a.s.
(p.s. that was in jest or whatever, not sarcastic, but smart-aleck-y) :P
-
Well of course it wasnt mnsbrs fault. Lol.
It was mine for following a dumbass and not leaving enough room to compensate. So i guess that makes me a dumbass too. You hopefully live and you learn :-P I learned my lesson. I came out of my accident way better than i should have.
On that note, i went riding yesterday. Leg still broken but i can hold my bike up no problem. Wont be doin any long rides tho just in case it fatigues on me.
-
Well of course it wasnt mnsbrs fault. Lol.
It was mine for following a dumbass and not leaving enough room to compensate. (Should have known better but thats ok......shit happens & you hadn’t ridden with him before.) So i guess that makes me a dumbass too. (No....just unaware of your surroundings & following too close.) You hopefully live and you learn :-P I learned my lesson. I came out of my accident way better than i should have.
On that note, i went riding yesterday. Leg still broken but i can hold my bike up no problem. Wont be doin any long rides tho just in case it fatigues on me.
I've done that too. Rode over 250 miles 3 days after breaking my collar bone. Probably not the best idea but still worth it!!
-
But then how are we supposed to blanketly judge groups / forums? First it was put forth that we can't judge skill of an individual (one outcome of the Pace Guide and Riding Safely threads), now we can't even pin X crashes on Y group? How are we going to find or avoid like-minded or dis-similar riders?
a.s.
(p.s. that was in jest or whatever, not sarcastic, but smart-aleck-y) :P
I know it was in jest but still...& I get that.
Like I've said.....much can be said about the different forums but still...if it's out there it can be used for multiple purposes.
With that said, MN-MSTA has done far better than any other forum I've been on for keeping things oriented in a safe manner.
Of course there is always room for improvement....I'm just sayin'
-
Well of course it wasnt mnsbrs fault. Lol.
It was mine for following a dumbass and not leaving enough room to compensate. So i guess that makes me a dumbass too. You hopefully live and you learn :-P I learned my lesson. I came out of my accident way better than i should have.
On that note, i went riding yesterday. Leg still broken but i can hold my bike up no problem. Wont be doin any long rides tho just in case it fatigues on me.
Good to hear you're healed enough to back and riding.
-
On that note, i went riding yesterday. Leg still broken but i can hold my bike up no problem. Wont be doin any long rides tho just in case it fatigues on me.
Awesome Mike! There may still be a few more nice days for you to get some riding in.