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General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Elk on October 09, 2010, 05:14:16 PM
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I have been surprised to observe on recent rides that most of us lean counter to the direction of the corner in a crossed-up body position.
That is, instead of leaning in the direction of the turn most lean to the outside. This increases the lean of the bike and looks awkward. It does decrease any chicken strip width however. :)
I'm not in a position to be critical, most of you are faster than me. But leaning to the outside is counter to what I have been told/read is proper body position.
This leads me to wonder if there is a benefit to leaning to the outside that I am not aware of. I am also curious if those of you that ride corners crossed up know you are doing so.
I also wonder if I have a tendency to do this also even though I am actively thinking to put weight on the inner peg and to lean into the corner. (Feel free to comment on what I do if you have helpful suggestions.)
Thoughts?
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I know I do this from time to time. For me I think it is the turn or the road may be getting boring so you push down on the seat. Also for me I am not going any where near the limit for that corner. So you do something differant to have a little more fun on your ride.
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I've done this. I also do it occasionally do stretch; any new motion feels good after being on the bike for an hour or more.
What surprised me however is how many make every turn in this fashion. Thus the question.
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The only time I will be doing something remotely to what you are describing is in the parking lot or when not on pavement. (counter balancing)
Otherwise, on pavement at speeds faster than a crawl, lean into the direction of the turn.
Allon
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Yeah, unless your doing it on purpose to stretch or to try and wear the outside of the tread more, I'd call leaning outside the turn a lazy style or dare I say, uneducated method. I used to do it when I first started because I didn't know any better. I could still ride fast but I wasn't using the machine or the tires optimally.
Do it the right way and the extra cornering allowance you'll get when you lean your body into the turn will pay off as a safety margin if you have to make corrections or need to lean more for a hazard or decreasing radius.
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Many people turn bikes for decades that way on the street - and don't crash. Even racers can suceed with bad position (see all the good comparison pictures in Lee Park's book, Total Control). As Ty said, that style isn't optimal, and leaves less safety margin when an unexpected thing happens. I like this old british article as a visual tool.
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I think "uneducated method" is a bit harsh. I could guess that some of the riders who counterweight on the street are doing so because they dirt ride a lot. Counter-weighting is the correct way to manage loose material or control slide turning on dirt, but it can get you in some big time trouble on the street by unnecessarily increasing your lean angle. I know there are riders who like to do it at low speeds just to put their body in a different position on purpose (what Vince said.)
Overall, I do think it's a bad habit that is hard to overcome, once you get into doing it too much. I had to break myself of doing this years ago and still find myself doing it on occasion when I am tired (lazy). But you can bet when I am at speed, I am concentrating on reducing my lean angle to give myself more margin.
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OK, dumb question here... looking at the post that Aprilian, isn't the third one from the left on the top the right body position?
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Yes...partially. It's good to move the body off the seat some to help minmize your lean angle. I also like the head position and where the rider is looking in the bottom right picture. Some people will preach to get the upper body down low along with it. The point is to reduce the necessary lean angle to give yourself more of a safety margin and also do what feels comfortable for you.
I noticed this last Friday that I was able to comfortably hold my line through some sketchy road conditions because I was keeping the bike a little more upright due to my body position. Sometimes I feel like I probably look retarded because I'm practicing a body position that would really only be needed when riding at a much more aggressive pace, but it is good practice.
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Getting off the saddle looks cooler.
'nuff said
(mostly joking) :)
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I have been surprised to observe on recent rides that most of us lean counter to the direction of the corner in a crossed-up body position.
That is, instead of leaning in the direction of the turn most lean to the outside. This increases the lean of the bike and looks awkward. It does decrease any chicken strip width however. :)
Thoughts?
I think what you observed Friday may have been due to the nature of the ride. If we had run Wildcat MT. or the Mindoro Cut I think
you would have seen most riders shifting weight/hanging off to the inside of corners.. Also Jay chose a more moderate pace (fine with me) for this ride since it was quite scenic with the change in colors. If we had been really haulin ass I'm sure you would have seen most riders
shifting weight/hanging off to the inside of corners. The gixxer rider didn't get scuffed knee sliders from counter leaning. ;)
Just my 2 cents.
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Good productive discussion.
I had not thought of looking around corners with counter leaning, every little bit of height does help.
Interesting idea that people default to counter-leaning when riding at a comfortable pace. While I don't question that most/all on these rides would switch to shifting weight to the inside if going quicker, leaving aside stretching and maximizing vision, why ride counter to best technique when going slower?
I find that when I feel uncomfortable with a corner I throw out good technique. I "forget" proper; weight on the inside peg, pushing on the inside bar, etc. I instead start counter-leaning. Bad Elk. I want the instinctive default to be maximizing traction, the ability to turn and maintain control. Bad habits are really hard to change.
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I think what you observed Friday may have been due to the nature of the ride. If we had run Wildcat MT. or the Mindoro Cut I think
you would have seen most riders shifting weight/hanging off to the inside of corners.. Also Jay chose a more moderate pace (fine with me) for this ride since it was quite scenic with the change in colors. If we had been really haulin ass I'm sure you would have seen most riders
shifting weight/hanging off to the inside of corners. The gixxer rider didn't get scuffed knee sliders from counter leaning. ;)
Just my 2 cents.
uh-oh! have i been doing it WrOnG all this time ???
:D
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This post isn't responding to any one comment, just to the theme in general.
So many of the skills involved in good motorcycling are counter-intuitive and need to be drilled into our melons with repetition, repetition, repetition.
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So many of the skills involved in good motorcycling are counter-intuitive and need to be drilled into our melons with repetition, repetition, repetition.
No question.
It's humbling.
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I may have figured it out. Counter-leaning takes less physical effort.
I just returned from a ride. I found that if I counter-lean it is easy to initiate a turn by pushing on the bar in the direction of the turn and pulling on the opposite bar. Your body turning to the outside and the bar turning go together well.
Steering takes more effort when you also lean into the turn. The total pressure on the bars isn't really different, it just takes more perceived effort as it isn't as easy to use the big muscles in your shoulders, back and hips to turn the bars.
I'm not suggesting anyone is lazy. Rather like all animals we prefer actions which take less energy to accomplish.
I'm finding I make better turns when turn-in and apex are relatively late, with a quickish turn-in involving simultaneous bar movement and weight shifting to the inside.
I like getting better. :)
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You lost me. I need to read this not on my phone.
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I tend to counter balance steer when I'm worried about traction, in anticipation of switchback combinations, when I'm cold or tired. I did it allot on Slimey Crud as my neck was killing me and I found it impossible to bend my neck enough to keep a proper field of vision when leaned over and hanging off the inside. Rode like crap all day. and my neck is still killing me... Hopefully I'll get things squared away enough to do Frosty Pumpkin.
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I started riding dirt bikes when I was 12 and rode them till I was 30, I have a lot of trouble with this very thing. Old habits die hard, I will catch myself when I'm already in the corner, and from what I've read this is the wrong time to change posision on the bike. Now that I'm older how can I train myself to do it right without breaking my neck. I have just joined MSTA and am so stoked about learning how to become a better, faster and safer rider. So if some of you cats will take a little time to help me out I would be forever greatfull, thanks.
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Mike -
There are a couple of organizations that run schools at the Dakota County Technical College (DCTC). ridingcourse.com (http://ridingcourse.com) and advancedridingschool.net (http://advancedridingschool.net). Both Steve and Jessica provide an excellent environment to learn and hone your skills in a safe and controlled environment.
Tim...
I started riding dirt bikes when I was 12 and rode them till I was 30, I have a lot of trouble with this very thing. Old habits die hard, I will catch myself when I'm already in the corner, and from what I've read this is the wrong time to change posision on the bike. Now that I'm older how can I train myself to do it right without breaking my neck. I have just joined MSTA and am so stoked about learning how to become a better, faster and safer rider. So if some of you cats will take a little time to help me out I would be forever greatfull, thanks.
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Mike -
There are a couple of organizations that run schools at the Dakota County Technical College (DCTC). ridingcourse.com ([url]http://ridingcourse.com[/url]) and advancedridingschool.net ([url]http://advancedridingschool.net[/url]). Both Steve and Jessica provide an excellent environment to learn and hone your skills in a safe and controlled environment.
Tim...
I started riding dirt bikes when I was 12 and rode them till I was 30, I have a lot of trouble with this very thing. Old habits die hard, I will catch myself when I'm already in the corner, and from what I've read this is the wrong time to change posision on the bike. Now that I'm older how can I train myself to do it right without breaking my neck. I have just joined MSTA and am so stoked about learning how to become a better, faster and safer rider. So if some of you cats will take a little time to help me out I would be forever greatfull, thanks.
Thanks Tim I will look into some local college in Duluth for the same.
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. . . how can I train myself to do it right without breaking my neck.
The exact reason I started this thread. There is always more to learn.
If riding well wasn't a challenge we probably wouldn't find it as fun.
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this guy has it figured out
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Good pic.
I love the cigarette.