mn-msta.com
General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Tim... on March 27, 2012, 07:16:10 PM
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Still do not have an official answer. Lot's of side topics - but Ray, Tony still no MSTA definition.
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My definition of "ride your own ride" is that in a group setting you should ride as you normally would if you were riding the same route alone. For me this means I don't let the group determine my speed or when to pass cars or what line to take thru corners or whether to stop or not. If I have a routesheet and I know where the group is going there is no need for me to stay with the group.
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As always, Tony you are a class act.
The problem I have with your definition is that you have situational awareness and are able to self-navigate. Would you be able to "ride your own ride" if, say you were in Alaska riding with a bunch of locals, they handed you a route sheet and told to "ride your own ride" - how comfortable would that be?
I am with armybikr on this - what is the point of a group ride if you are to "ride your own ride" when this definition implies that you will be left behind and fend for yourself with nothing but a route sheet?
Not providing for new riders on this forum, is in my humble opinion, a disservice to the sport-riding community; what are the alternatives, let them "earn" their stripes before they can join an MNSTA ride - bullshit. Organize teaching rides that introduce the pace and WI roads that we all love so much. Personally, I get a lot of reward from teaching, and I would invite Paul, Ray, Tony, and Vince to do so. If it has failed in the past, all that means is that you are doing it wrong.
Would be all over this myself if personal situation dictates no MC riding this year. C'mon MNSTA, teach the noobs the ABC's.
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I agree we don't make much effort to organize rides specifically for newer riders. They do a much better job of it on TA and ZG. We completely suck at organizing social events compared to these other forums also.
Still, there is nothing to prevent anyone from organizing and posting a ride for newer people. Also some of the non MSTA rides I see posted can
accomodate newer riders. The Frontier ride comes to mind. I've seen people complete that ride at a very modest pace. The ride is short. The roads are not very challenging (at normal speeds) and there are often others to ride with who enjoy a moderate pace.
My first obligation is to dues paying members. Their preference seems to be for longer rides on challenging roads. Therefore I plan my routes accordingly. It is difficult to reconcile the preferences of the MSTA membership with the needs of newer riders. I will give it some thought. Maybe I can do some ice cream rides when it warms up some more.
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"I agree we don't make much effort to organize rides specifically for newer riders. They do a much better job of it on TA and ZG. We completely suck at organizing social events compared to these other forums also."
Since ride leaders routinely "set an example" of what good riding should be- I would hardly consider any of those rides to be a good example or foster the proper learning environment for a "noob".
Sure they are short, sure they are full of stops, sure they are close to home on nothing roads.......but what did the "noob" learn.....That to be cool and to be considered 'good" you need to ride triples and pass on the shoulder???
Come on seriously--- I find recommending that as a good learning environment to be wreckless at best.
I'll give you the social events---they love to party and drink......must be the lack of responsibility and generational thing?
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As always, Tony you are a class act.
The problem I have with your definition is that you have situational awareness and are able to self-navigate. Would you be able to "ride your own ride" if, say you were in Alaska riding with a bunch of locals, they handed you a route sheet and told to "ride your own ride" - how comfortable would that be?
It would be just fine for me. I ride and have ridden areas all over the country that I've never been in before off of route sheets. Sometimes leading groups of people who also have never ridden in the area before and sometimes leading folks who are native to the area.
Now let me ask you a question. Would you recommend a rider who had just gotten their license join a group of experienced riders on a ride to Hyder Alaska from the states? Are the professional tour companies who run tours to different areas wrong in characterizing some of their rides as for experienced riders? These guys stand to make money, they aren't doing it for free. Why do these professionals make the distinction?
I am with armybikr on this - what is the point of a group ride if you are to "ride your own ride" when this definition implies that you will be left behind and fend for yourself with nothing but a route sheet?
Let me separate the objectives of a rider on a ride into two separate objectives. One is to have a fun ride, the other is to learn how to ride better.
Let's think of outfits like Edelweiss as being providers of the former. They make it easy for riders to have a fun time. This is what the MN-MSTA is mostly about. A club to have a fun time. They help make it easier for people to go on rides together in the best riding areas in the world.
So let's make our rides appropriate for all riders. We can do a better job of this than anyone else. Let's post them to all the other forums since we can do a better job than anyone else. We've been there and done that. While I think allot of people on other forums thought they were great, our core membership thought it sucked and we failed. Are you suggesting that we need to go back to making our rides appropriate for everyone and then cross posting them to all the other forums? If not, how is anything less, not elitist?
Now let's look at the outfits that focus on the other objective, teaching riders how to ride better. MSF, ZARS, DirtBike Tech. Stayin Safe.
All except for Stayin Safe offer closed course instruction only. Check out the way Stayin Safe provides public road street instruction. Lead rider, sweep rider, two way communication between teachers and students. The MSTA has started having these folks offer training in conjunction with the MSTA national rally and I'm looking at arranging for them to be at TWiSTAR. Based on recent forum discussion I'll also be looking at bringing them to runs some training for anyone on the forum who is interested. Of course the knock is Stayin Safe courses aren't cheap. I expect that it will take a guarantee of a few thousand dollars to get them to offer courses here. I could see personally doing this for the club.
What has the club traditionally done to help new riders? As PKPK would say, BACK IN DAY. The answer is the club has traditionally done nothing. There has never been a successful club organized program for new riders, although it has been tried. While the MSTA Membership Partner Program exists, it is a failure in my book. Why is it a failure? Because I can never get enough volunteers for it, and I personally end up doing it at every TWiSTAR. I suppose for all those who benefit from it, it is successful, and I suppose for all those who think the club needs it and are happy to point people my way it is a success, but let me make it clear as someone who has allot of time and effort invested in it, as opposed to lip service, it is a failure. OTOH, individual members have done much without a formal program. Look at what Lloyd has done. But outside of this stuff, what the club traditionally does is take care of its own. Club members would maybe introduce a new rider to the club that they knew needed help and they would help this person and others in the club would help this person. With respect to this type of help, I don't think anything has changed. While the club may make statements which seem off putting to new riders, the fact is, new riders who form good enough relationships with club members for those members to bring them into the club get taken care of.
Not providing for new riders on this forum, is in my humble opinion, a disservice to the sport-riding community; what are the alternatives, let them "earn" their stripes before they can join an MNSTA ride - bullshit. Organize teaching rides that introduce the pace and WI roads that we all love so much. Personally, I get a lot of reward from teaching, and I would invite Paul, Ray, Tony, and Vince to do so. If it has failed in the past, all that means is that you are doing it wrong.
Would be all over this myself if personal situation dictates no MC riding this year. C'mon MNSTA, teach the noobs the ABC's.
Let me start by asking you to prove the truth of your assertion "If it has failed in the past, all that means is that you are doing it wrong"
Show me who is doing it right? Prove to me that it can be done right. If you can't show that someone is doing it right, then how do you know that failure in the past proves that you are doing it wrong. Can't prove it? Does that prove that you're making you're point the wrong way? Inability to do something, simply proves that you can't do it. In order for it to prove that you were doing it wrong, you need to prove someone else knows how to do it right. When no one knows how to do something, they might be doing it wrong, it also might be impossible to do.
I'm on all the other local Minnesota riding forums. I read them regularly. The overlap in membership between this forum and all the other forums is significant, with this forum being by far the least popular. I think that is good. The MN-MSTA is not for everyone and has no interest in being for everyone. There is clear bias of members to quality over quantity. It is reflected in things like not having a big kick off ride with hundreds of riders, or having allot of focus on representing by wearing forum branded wear. The forum is targeted at a set of discerning riders.
As represented by the interest and posts on the other local forums, the demand for new rider rides, well organized rides, rides which introduce riders to the best roads in the area is huge. The other forums with a minimum of roughly double the number of members as this forum has up to more than 10 times the number of members, even with all those members are failing to offer much for new riders. If they were doing a good job, Armybiker, who is a member on the other forums wouldn't bother with this forum.
Let's flip this around now. With all the overlap of membership on this forum and membership on other forums, if we offered a significantly better way to support new riders, how many new riders like Armybiker do you think would end up in our forum? Our experience shows that when we make our mainstay offering, organized rides widely available to everyone on all the Minnesota forums, we get so much demand it overwhelms us, ruins our rides and drives away our volunteers. You may not realize it, but one of the reasons so many of our rides start early in the morning so far away from the Twin Cities was to provide a barrier to entry for all the irresponsible unskilled riders who would show up hung over without a way to carry a route sheet when rides were started closer to the Twin Cities.
Now, knowing you Tim, the elitist bells are going off in your head, and you have a point. The counterpoint is, you used to go on rides regularly on the other forums, you are aware of them, why do you reserve your comments and as best as I can tell most of your riding time for this "elitist" forum as opposed to the other forums? Are you an elitist in denial?
So back to how to support new riders. BACK IN THE DAY, it was done by members with relationships with new riders bringing them into the club and everyone watching out and helping new riders, much as parents who are part of a group of friends help out with each an others children. The club is and always has been about relationships and riding and the club remains as such.
Can the club support the broad new rider community without any relationship to members. I don't think so. While members are always willing to do things to help other members, I'm not so sure that there is enough resource and interest in the club to support the entire new rider community, just as there is not enough resource and interest in the club to support the entire riding community interested in rides on the alphabet roads of Wisconsin.
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I have an example of good from HSTA days. For one Slimey Crud ride I was asked to accompany a newer rider who wanted a shorter, slightly lower paced ride. Ray made a route for us (I probably forgot to say "Thanks Ray!" ;) ) and we went off from Beth's at the same time as everyone else. There was a route problem (2 E's in two different counties - we were supposed to take the second :o ) and the time we passed the whole group of faster riders (going the opposite direction!!!! ;D ). We never made it to Deland and actually took the Highway back, but we had fun and visited with everyone at Beth's. If I had of tried to do the extra miles and keep up with the faster group, I might have had a worse experience and never came back.
So why not have the ORGANIZER also create a shortened version of the route for newer or slower riders. I've designed a charity ride like this for 9 years and it is always fun for both groups to arrive at the lunch spot within a couple minutes of each other.
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So why not have the ORGANIZER also create a shortened version of the route for newer or slower riders. I've designed a charity ride like this for 9 years and it is always fun for both groups to arrive at the lunch spot within a couple minutes of each other.
Creating some shorter routes is great idea.
Some rides are simply too long to create a shortened new rider suitable route. For example Slimey Crud is a 600 mile day for me, and I think at most this route can be cut down to about a 500 mile day for a rider living in the Twin Cities. Most experienced riders would consider this to be a very long riding day.
There are 4 regular ride organizers who do their routes the old fashioned way, without using mapping software. They use a map and literally ride the route they create stopping at the side of the road and writing down the route mileages and directions as they go. They typically ride the route at least two times, once to create it, and once to check it, meaning it takes them a minimum of two days of dawn to dusk riding to create a route. These routes are typically sent to Roger or I and we translate them into electronic forms (formatted PDF route sheet and GPS files). If there was a shorter route desired by someone it is possible that Roger or I could create one, but much of this depends on when we get the route from the organizer. One of the old fashion created routes I got from one organizer took me over 3 hours to develop an electronic version. Some of the route references and mileages did not match up to anything I could find on three different mapping programs, nor on the DeLorme and other hard copy maps I had of the area.
I would be willing to create a shorter route of any ride for which it makes sense to do, as long as I was given at least a couple of weeks advance notice.
A clue to who is one of the old school route creators might be discerned in the response immediately preceding this response.
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You may not realize it, but one of the reasons so many of our rides start early in the morning so far away from the Twin Cities was to provide a barrier to entry for all the irresponsible unskilled riders who would show up hung over without a way to carry a route sheet when rides were started closer to the Twin Cities.
This is the main reason I don't attend many of the rides. I'm up at 5am every day for work, work at least 10 hours a day downtown, plus commuting. By the time Saturday roles around I want to sleep in at least until 8am, which doesn't allow me enough time to get to Nelson to join rides. No ones problem but mine, but it would be nice if rides started a little later. I realize alot of you guys like to ride sunup til sundown, again, don't have that kind of time, have other obligations, but it seems most of the rides on this forum are designed as 500 mile days. At least that's what I see every time someone posts up how many miles they did in a day.
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Ray, you made this personal by calling me out by name; what is your definition of "ride your own ride"?
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Ray, you made this personal by calling me out by name; what is your definition of "ride your own ride"?
I like Tony's definition.
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That was easy :)
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I haven't been on here for two days and I sure have a lot to catch up on. For me putting a route together is a lot of work I wish it wasn't but it is for me. I have been on every one of those roads but I have a hard time putting them together to make them fun. Ray and Lloyd are very good at this. I would gladly lead more rides if I had differant routes to ride and I know we can ride some of the same roads on differant routes. I do go out and pre ride the route to make sure the mileage is correct and all the dots connect. I can lead a fast one or a beginners ride no trouble. I have ridden the roads so many times that slowing to smell the roses is OK sometimes. So if some one wants to put a route together and wants some one to lead sure I will do it.
Ride you own ride or what is MSTA. Well it is not having to watch out for others because they know what they are doing so you enjoy your ride more and then share it with others afterwards. It's long rides that are well put together. They maybe challenging or scenic or both. It's learning from others even if they are not teaching. It's about going on a ride and every one is ready to ride. They have good tires, a good running bike, they tell you they have a sore ass but are enjoying it, if it rains or the road goes bad it's OK. They are all die hard bikers and will never give up the sport.
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Creating some shorter routes is great idea.
There are 4 regular ride organizers who do their routes the old fashioned way, without using mapping software. They use a map and literally ride the route they create stopping at the side of the road and writing down the route mileages and directions as they go. They typically ride the route at least two times, once to create it, and once to check it, meaning it takes them a minimum of two days of dawn to dusk riding to create a route. These routes are typically sent to Roger or I and we translate them into electronic forms (formatted PDF route sheet and GPS files). If there was a shorter route desired by someone it is possible that Roger or I could create one, but much of this depends on when we get the route from the organizer. One of the old fashion created routes I got from one organizer took me over 3 hours to develop an electronic version. Some of the route references and mileages did not match up to anything I could find on three different mapping programs, nor on the DeLorme and other hard copy maps I had of the area.
I would be willing to create a shorter route of any ride for which it makes sense to do, as long as I was given at least a couple of weeks advance notice.
Believe me, I know about creating and riding 2 different routes to create a traditional turn-by-turn route sheet. For my charity rides I spend 2-3 full days just riding and checking mileages. I regularly get screwed up when I ride it on different bikes and the odometers are not perfectly synched.
Why create GPS files for paper based routes? I thought everyone in MSTA was expected to be able to SELF NAVIGATE! ;)
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Why create GPS files for paper based routes? I thought everyone in MSTA was expected to be able to SELF NAVIGATE! ;)
Rhetorical question I know but I hate looking down at route sheets when I can have the pleasant British lady tell me when to turn. I've actually rode whole 10 day trips on a GPS, without once pulling out a map.
Having a GPS doesn't mean I can't navigate. It means I choose to use different tools. Having everyone using the same programmed route has it's advantages as there is rarely wrong turns and riders tend to spread out more. I've done my share of converting route sheets and it's sort of gratifying to be thanked at the starting point the next morning.
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I love it when some one has a GPS it is great. Now add a second one on the ride and you get something called GPS Moments. I love those even more.
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Even as a younger rider I spent ten years with a map folded up into a tank bag on my Bandit or other bike. While it worked, I spent a lot of time looking down and squinting at my tank map figuring things out rather than paying attention to the road and sometimes I felt anxious figuring out the next turn. I'm sure most of you know what I mean.
Since switching to a large 5" GPS it is no comparison, the GPS is so much easier and faster to notice the route, on top it has my next turn/waypoint by name and it is always counting down the distance until that point. The route is highlighted in purple which stands out compared to all other roads, and I get a preview of the road up ahead at all times. I encourage anyone to try out a 'route enabled' GPS it has been a tremendously positive experience for me using one over the last year.
However, like Ray said, creating GPX routes can take hours. It is detailed, sometimes finicky, but it is worth it, and in a way it is fun. I am still fairly new to it. I do not know a good way to make route sheets though, especially the pretty PDF style, so if anyone wants to help me with that I'm all for it.
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I experienced a renewed sense of adventure after getting a GPS. I think it's simply because I hate map reading and the need to remember road names and turns. I was also frustrated that most Rand McNally type maps didn't have Wisconsin name roads shown.
I actually enjoy the route creation on laptop. It gives me a chance to look for new roads on-line and map out a full day's ride. Converting route sheets for people give me an opportunity to sanity check their roads and distances (and I find mistakes on at least 50% of newly created route sheets.)
Speaking of which, I need to move all my GPS files from MN-Sportbike to this website now that Ray created a nice directory. This could take a while but I'll try to have it done by next week.
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However, like Ray said, creating GPX routes can take hours. It is detailed, sometimes finicky, but it is worth it, and in a way it is fun. I am still fairly new to it. I do not know a good way to make route sheets though, especially the pretty PDF style, so if anyone wants to help me with that I'm all for it.
The Garmin MapSource program is what I'm most familiar with, well, that and google maps... I haven't used MapSource yet to generate route sheets, but as you can see from the attached screenshots I bet it would / could work well. I think copying and pasting into Excel (assuming it picks up the columns correctly) would be ideal, then you can delete some steps maybe if they aren't needed and rename stuff or use decent fonts / spacing, etc.
Andy
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However, like Ray said, creating GPX routes can take hours. It is detailed, sometimes finicky, but it is worth it, and in a way it is fun. I am still fairly new to it. I do not know a good way to make route sheets though, especially the pretty PDF style, so if anyone wants to help me with that I'm all for it.
The Garmin MapSource program is what I'm most familiar with, well, that and google maps... I haven't used MapSource yet to generate route sheets, but as you can see from the attached screenshots I bet it would / could work well. I think copying and pasting into Excel (assuming it picks up the columns correctly) would be ideal, then you can delete some steps maybe if they aren't needed and rename stuff or use decent fonts / spacing, etc.
Andy
Do you have to pay for the Garmin MapSource?
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It's free but they don't make it super-easy to get / install. I've gotten it to work on a few computers but still need to write down the exact pattern. It definitely involves "installing" a map update to the computer (one of the Advanced Options during a map update -- so you'd want a Garmin device to bother with this) and possibly installing an old version of MapSource first.
If you google for it Garmin's official statement isn't quite accurate, and there might be a good description out there somewhere about getting it to work.
Andy
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Actually, Mapsource is officially discontinued. You can download "Basecamp" from Garmin and install for free. But here is the rub for both, neither has map detail that would show addresses and names of parks and such. For Mapsource, you would install a mapset that you purchase for your GPS that would come on a CD or DVD. Now that mapsets are built right into GPS's, you connect the GPS to Basecamp to get that level of detail showing in the application. Either way, without a purchased mapset, you might as well just setup routes in Google Maps instead.
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I use microsoft streets and trips. It works very well for making routes and exports them directly as a GPX file. I've actually gotten pretty good at it and I think I made my route file last night for today's ride in about ten minutes after I knew where I wanted to go. Microsoft sells it for $30-40.
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Back on topic...
"Ride your own ride", for me, is very situational. It could be taking over leadership of a "Slimy Crud" ride, or taking over ride leadership from a "leader" who can't follow their own route sheet, or leading a noob around the ABC's, or smelling the roses ride from the back.
You narcissists ...
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It was interesting to read the opinions of more experienced riders. I thought it would be nice to include the thoughts of a more inexperienced rider like me. I am late to the sport. I only began riding two years ago. For the last two years I've been riding with members from other forums and fortunately most of the rides were organized with the same theme. Group ride. No man left behind. Every one was made aware that faster riders who knew the route and were better skilled were generally ahead, but at major intersections everyone would wait for the noobs like me. This provided a few key points for me in learning to ride. One: it gave me the opportunity to concentrate on the road and not a piece of paper taped to my tank, which would create a distraction for me, and keep my eyes off the road. Two: I have been on many rides where experienced riders went down, including inexperienced me, and were glad others were there to help them, and not following a piece of paper to the next meeting spot.
I am still learning and very grateful to riders who are willing to wait for others.
Some of the postings of group rides on other forums will say "experienced riders only". Which is perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with letting everyone know what the intention of the pace is going to be.
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The problem with not using a routesheet is you wind up absolutely hoping that the guy ahead of you will wait at every intersection in plain view. Unfortunately, riders get tired or impatient and may forget to wait. Or you might get tired and miss the rider waiting for you. Probably the most likely way a group gets split up is when one rider takes a wrong turn and others follow. Then you come along and now there is no rider waiting at intersections. It's good practice to get used to reading a route sheet for your own protection. I agree that it's not the easiest thing to look at route sheets taped to the tank. It's a skill that only 'comes by doing' though.
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It's good practice to get used to reading a route sheet for your own protection. I agree that it's not the easiest thing to look at route sheets taped to the tank. It's a skill that only 'comes by doing' though.
Well said. I never used to use route sheets when I first started riding but now would rather have them than not. Even if it's a ride I've done before or just riding by myself to remind me of the turns coming up. As I've done this more & more it gets easier & easier to do.
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Riding off a route sheet definitely takes more effort than just relying on the people in front of you to show you the way or to rely on others to wait for everyone at every route change. Sounds good, but where it typically falls apart is when there is a following rider, who isn't keeping track of which road they should be on loses sight of the rider ahead of them and there is fork in the road.
If the rider is lucky they pick the correct fork in the road to take. If they are unlucky and pick the wrong fork, it typically sucks for everyone. The rider who takes the wrong fork often rides for a long time before realizing they've lost the group. The group turns around and typically never finds the rider who took the wrong fork, even after sometimes searching the sides of the road to make sure the lost rider isn't lying in the weeds or down a ravine on the side of the road. Personally, I really dislike searching ditches and ravines for missing riders.
We provide route sheets to help make sure people don't get lost on rides, and to make it possible for them to be entirely responsible for their own ride. It takes effort on everyone's behalf to run a successful ride. Unfortunately the lack of effort or control of some ride participants is all too often what ruins a ride for a group. Route sheets also enable people who get split from the group for one reason or another to rejoin the group further down the route.
Of course a group leader could stop at every fork in a route to make sure that everyone takes the correct fork, but frankly when you're riding off a route sheet or a GPS unit, you typically don't even notice the forks in the road and there is typically no safe place for a group to stop and wait for other riders.
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Also, to be clear, using a route sheet as the base for the route doe NOT mean "riders are left behind". The folks here who organize group rides will always look for a rider who has disappeared.
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Of course a group leader could stop at every fork in a route to make sure that everyone takes the correct fork, but frankly when you're riding off a route sheet or a GPS unit, you typically don't even notice the forks in the road and there is typically no safe place for a group to stop and wait for other riders.
So just to be sure, as a new rider, I should expect to fend for my self. Might as well ride by my self. For me, group rides gave me a comforting feeling that when I make a mistake, some one will be there to scrape me off the ground.
I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.
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Of course a group leader could stop at every fork in a route to make sure that everyone takes the correct fork, but frankly when you're riding off a route sheet or a GPS unit, you typically don't even notice the forks in the road and there is typically no safe place for a group to stop and wait for other riders.
So just to be sure, as a new rider, I should expect to fend for my self. Might as well ride by my self. For me, group rides gave me a comforting feeling that when I make a mistake, some one will be there to scrape me off the ground.
I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.
While riders of different skill and pace levels can ride together and have a great time, as a new rider I would think it's best to stick with people who are going to ride at a similar pace or at least have a group within a group where you at least enjoy keeping each other within view. I just think that makes a lot more sense especially for a less experienced rider. That, and it would be a lot more fun. I always rode with a group of similarly new riders years ago and it was way more fun and comfortable than the idea of me trying to ride off a route sheet with guys on sportbikes with 20+ years of experience who like to do about 100 miles between stops.
Lay out what you want from fellow riders and start your own rides here or any forum, and you'll find a ton of people who will want to ride with you. Sport touring is a sport, and like any other sport its most fun if you partake with others who are at a similar level. You said it yourself, if reading a route sheet is too stressful then I would stick with routes and riders where that is not necessary for a while. To ask others to wait for you is fine but to expect it every mile of a 300+ route of twisties, you'll have to find riders who are absolutely on the same page and skill level as you for it to be enjoyable for all. It's not rocket science.
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Of course a group leader could stop at every fork in a route to make sure that everyone takes the correct fork, but frankly when you're riding off a route sheet or a GPS unit, you typically don't even notice the forks in the road and there is typically no safe place for a group to stop and wait for other riders.
So just to be sure, as a new rider, I should expect to fend for my self. Might as well ride by my self. For me, group rides gave me a comforting feeling that when I make a mistake, some one will be there to scrape me off the ground.
I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.
You are clearly not a retard as you get the point about striving to learn to read a route sheet. Most don't.
As a new rider, you should realize at every instant on a ride you are fending for yourself. If other forums provide more comfort they are providing you false comfort. No one else can ride your bike for you, or make choices on the road for you but yourself. When you believe that other riders can do this for you, you are counting on them and since they can't steer, brake or accelerate your bike this is a false comfort.
We try hard not to lose people on rides. We typically wait at every turn for everyone to show up. We provide route sheets so people have another way of avoiding getting lost. We turn around and look for people when they get lost. Sometimes we establish both lead and sweep riders for groups. Decades of experience tells us that even with all this, people still get lost on rides. People following a leader also need to realize, if they think following a route sheet while riding is difficult, try following a route sheet, while being vigilant for road hazards like gravel, wildlife and traffic and constantly checking your mirrors to make sure you haven't lost anyone. We don't emphasize everything we do to not lose riders, because we want riders to take responsibility for their own ride. The final point is that the only thing that can prevent riders from getting lost on rides is for individual riders to know where the ride is going.
The intent here is not to make anyone feel bad about their riding. The intent here is to make sure people develop the best attitude possible towards riding, so they learn to ride safely, proficiently and responsibly. That attitude is to be responsible for one's own ride and to develop the skills to enable one to be responsible for their own ride. When organizers put forth the effort to make it possible for riders to be entirely responsible for their own ride, it is a good thing, not a bad thing.
OTOH, some riders prefer not to be responsible for their own rides. They prefer to follow and when things go wrong on a ride, they see it as the fault of others. For an organizer who voluntarily creates a route, a route sheet and leads a group of riders, this is a strong disincentive to organize rides. In over a decade of experience running a motorcycling forum and in more than a decade of running rides, this is the number one reason groups have problems organizing rides. There are allot fewer people with the time, inclination, skills to organize a ride and lead a group than there are people who prefer to follow and blame organizers for problems on rides. Let's see a show of hands from the people who are willing to create a route, route sheet, and spend a day of riding where they are looking at a route sheet, looking for road hazards and looking in their rear view mirror to make sure no one is lost. The people who don't see it as their responsibility to learn to ride their own ride drive away the few who volunteer to organize rides with their complaints or suggestions on other things a ride organizer could do to make a ride better for them. The rhetoric on this forum is oriented to keep the people who prefer not to be responsible for their own rides away, so that organizers feel comfortable volunteering to organize rides.
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"Let's see a show of hands from the people who are willing to create a route, route sheet, and spend a day of riding where they are looking at a route sheet, looking for road hazards and looking in their rear view mirror to make sure no one is lost. "
Every weekend
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Of course a group leader could stop at every fork in a route to make sure that everyone takes the correct fork, but frankly when you're riding off a route sheet or a GPS unit, you typically don't even notice the forks in the road and there is typically no safe place for a group to stop and wait for other riders.
So just to be sure, as a new rider, I should expect to fend for my self. Might as well ride by my self. For me, group rides gave me a comforting feeling that when I make a mistake, some one will be there to scrape me off the ground.
I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.
Could you provide examples of the other forums that "provide the comfort" for new riders? Outside of Gold Wing type groups, I am not sure I know of any other forum than MSTA that tries to make newer riders fit in. I've observed some Gold Wing group rides that are so stifling to individual riding habits, they are counter productive when it comes to continued improvement with your own riding skills.
I think the best thing for you to do is to pair up with a buddy rider who already is familiar with the MSTA and route reading. This would have to be someone who would pay particular attention to you at turns, etc and not be particularly focused on sticking with the faster groups pace. I've done this on a few occasions because I tend to hang in the back and ride my own pace and sometimes I will come across a lost rider or someone who is struggling to keep up with an unfamiliar rider. Unfortunately I don't have much time for riding this year and only made one ride this year. I don't think you are retarded and I don't think you want to be babied but I do think you could use a buddy rider for a few rides until you start getting used to how the group interacts and reading route sheets.
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I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.
Could you provide examples of the other forums that "provide the comfort" for new riders? Outside of Gold Wing type groups, I am not sure I know of any other forum than MSTA that tries to make newer riders fit in.
EZpower has ridden with me on a cross-posted MNSBR/TwistedAddiction ride before. I am known to be very forgiving to new riders and have even split my groups in accommodation of more careful riders.
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Ah, see..you are a ride buddy then. It wasn't necessarily the forum that provided the comfort.
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I just threw my hands in my pockets. When riding down there with this crew I would never want to lead. Also sweeping sucks for me, the whole accordion thing that happens back there drives me nuts, thank god for Joel he seems to take in stride. I'm most comfortable in the middle rear of the pack.
"Let's see a show of hands from the people who are willing to create a route, route sheet, and spend a day of riding where they are looking at a route sheet, looking for road hazards and looking in their rear view mirror to make sure no one is lost. "
Don't know what just happened here.
Every weekend
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It wasn't necessarily the forum that provided the comfort.
I am on the staff of MNSBR and the ride was posted on MNSBR... perhaps that's what he meant.
But you are right that MNSBR doesn't have a mission statement or safety messages or anything like that... it's more of a "choose your own adventure" type of format. ;D
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I have been on many rides where experienced riders went down, including inexperienced me, and were glad others were there to help them, ..............
well, i can only speak for myself, if i was on rides where shit tons of people kept going down, i would be finding different people to ride with. ;) The group can be a safety thing if something happens to someone, mechanical breakdowns or crashes, or getting lost.
hope that makes sense. i would rather solo and have fun then ride with people with higher probabilities of crashing. not that things don't happen, they do. It seems that "some groups" have it happen MUCH more than other groups.
as far as sweeping, i can get thrown off a bit by throttle junkies hammering it out of every corner. hard to get my rhythm if that makes sense, i like being back there, i can relax, push, or a combination at any time. my mirrors are HUGE so makes spotting very easy, and if all else fails, my 1400 handles good down the straights too :D when it gets harder or more frustrating is the yoyo with BIG straightaway speed rides , i don't care to hammer the throttle all day.
Joel
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..... i don't care to hammer the throttle all day.
Joel
Not to mention, throttling will be expensive and eventually it will add up to some serious dough. (Just passed my third anniversary of my last performance award!)
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Ray said....."Let's see a show of hands from the people who are willing to create a route, route sheet, and spend a day of riding where they are looking at a route sheet, looking for road hazards and looking in their rear view mirror to make sure no one is lost. "
Lloyd answered.....Every weekend (with an awesome smiley of hand raising)
Mike says....Don't know what just happened here.
I just threw my hands in my pockets. When riding down there with this crew I would never want to lead. Also sweeping sucks for me, the whole accordion thing that happens back there drives me nuts, thank god for Joel he seems to take in stride. I'm most comfortable in the middle rear of the pack.
That was a terrible quote....it totally did not read as it was intended
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EZPower,
You are bringing up a very good point. As a beginner, if you rely only on a route sheet, and you put yourself with an experienced riders group, you will end up riding by yourself most of the time, which defeats the purpose of group ride. If you try to follow more experienced group than your own level and the group doesn’t wait for you in the turns, you are risking losing control and potentially getting hurt.
I recommend seeking a group that you are comfortable riding with.
Allon
It was interesting to read the opinions of more experienced riders. I thought it would be nice to include the thoughts of a more inexperienced rider like me. I am late to the sport. I only began riding two years ago. For the last two years I've been riding with members from other forums and fortunately most of the rides were organized with the same theme. Group ride. No man left behind. Every one was made aware that faster riders who knew the route and were better skilled were generally ahead, but at major intersections everyone would wait for the noobs like me. This provided a few key points for me in learning to ride. One: it gave me the opportunity to concentrate on the road and not a piece of paper taped to my tank, which would create a distraction for me, and keep my eyes off the road. Two: I have been on many rides where experienced riders went down, including inexperienced me, and were glad others were there to help them, and not following a piece of paper to the next meeting spot.
I am still learning and very grateful to riders who are willing to wait for others.
Some of the postings of group rides on other forums will say "experienced riders only". Which is perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with letting everyone know what the intention of the pace is going to be.
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It shouldn't be that complicated. When I was leading a ride last year, I posted it as smell the roses ride. When experienced riders on other forums want to ride without new riders they post it as such. On at least one occasion, when I saw who I was riding with, I let the organizer of the ride know my skill level and gave them the option of having me ride by myself. Some times they say no problem we will wait. Once in the while they will let me know to sit this one out. Which is perfectly fine by me. I want them to enjoy the ride on their level.
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It shouldn't be that complicated. When I was leading a ride last year, I posted it as smell the roses ride. When experienced riders on other forums want to ride without new riders they post it as such. On at least one occasion, when I saw who I was riding with, I let the organizer of the ride know my skill level and gave them the option of having me ride by myself. Some times they say no problem we will wait. Once in the while they will let me know to sit this one out. Which is perfectly fine by me. I want them to enjoy the ride on their level.
It isn't complicated at all. The ride organizer doesn't declare a pace, they just hand out route sheets and everyone rides at whatever pace they want with whomever they want to ride with. Don't need to ask the ride organizer if your pace is acceptable or not. If you want to make sure you have people to ride with, you just look at who is going on a ride and if people who are going ride at the same pace you typically like to ride at you're good to go. Alternately you can get people who ride at the same pace you ride at to go on the ride and just ride with them.
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It isn't complicated at all. The ride organizer doesn't declare a pace, they just hand out route sheets and everyone rides at whatever pace they want with whomever they want to ride with. Don't need to ask the ride organizer if your pace is acceptable or not. If you want to make sure you have people to ride with, you just look at who is going on a ride and if people who are going ride at the same pace you typically like to ride at you're good to go. Alternately you can get people who ride at the same pace you ride at to go on the ride and just ride with them.
Ray, the problems I see are
1) that works until the ride distance is not achievable at the slower rider's pace
2) if it is a ride where everyone waits for the full group to reassemble (lunch, gas, major waypoints, etc), the slower paced riders get very tired because they don't get a chance to rest like everyone else. That increases the risk of a mistake due to rider fatigue
3) the slower paced riders respond to 1 and 2 by riding above thier head trying to cover the distance and get a time to rest and socialize
The first times I rode with HSTA (years ago) that was my personal experience. Rides I joined last year felt very similar.
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Ian,
As I'm one of a very small handful of people who have arguable put on the most open-forum rides in the last 10 years *, I've grown weary of constant criticism from those that seam to rarely if ever conduct open-forum rides.
Perhaps you could give us your insight as to what would make open-forum group rides more enjoyable from your perspective. I believe you probably have great organizational skills as you are involved in teaching motorcycling classes (albeit absolute novice, right?) and I'm sure some of those skills could be applied in this instance. Please lay out, step by step, they ways you feel a ride should be conducted.
Sincerely,
Greg not Steve
*not boasting, believe me. just a fact
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These styles of group riding all have their suitable application, don't they?
What are the goals of a group ride?
• Maximize enjoyment for the majority of the participants (including the leader)
• Get everybody home safe with no damage (bike/self or other citizens/property)
• No tickets or arrests
And the obstacles to those objectives?
• Blended experience levels of riders
• Differing opinions amongst riders on enjoyable routes, proper motorcycle maintenance, and safe riding and proper gear
• Inclement weather
• Personal integrity, health and civility of all participants
• Other distractions
Route sheets take the “herding” burdens from the leader during the ride and places a navigational burden on the followers; requiring more experienced/ prepared riders, yes?
An FTL (follow-the-leader) ride places more herding burdens on the leader, alleviates the navigational burdens on the followers, but the resulting cluster effect can cause safety (following distance) problems, yes?
So what’s the answer?
We should all sell our bikes and take the train.
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I think you need to ride with a group of people to find where YOUR pecking order is. You won't find this the first time you ride with a group. There are a lot of great riders in this group and some bad, but a shit load of us inbetween. In my opinion it's best to stay out of the pack till you know where you belong. Some times the hardest part of finding that place is to face the fact that you are not the best rider in your crew, or even close to it. Just enjoy your own ride, and leave the fast shit to the better riders and learn what you can from them.
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Sanctioned MNSTA ride - ice cream and how to read a route sheet without putting yourself and others in danger ride 101. I'll be the first to sign up (next year). Yep, I can lead the "fast" group but it sure as hell is not from a route sheet.
So let me post a scenario/question for the "ride your own ride" proponents on group rides, as I personally think the two concepts are orthogonal:
My close-knit riding buddies and I decide to go out on a route that we have ridden many times before and have committed to memory. We invite you along and provide you with a route sheet and tell you to "ride your own ride". You cannot keep up, quickly fall behind and are now reliant on a route sheet to follow along the route all alone.
Does this fall into group riding - if it was me, certainly not.
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Sanctioned MNSTA ride - ice cream and how to read a route sheet without putting yourself and others in danger ride 101. I'll be the first to sign up (next year). Yep, I can lead the "fast" group but it sure as hell is not from a route sheet.
So let me post a scenario/question for the "ride your own ride" proponents on group rides, as I personally think the two concepts are orthogonal:
My close-knit riding buddies and I decide to go out on a route that we have ridden many times before and have committed to memory. We invite you along and provide you with a route sheet and tell you to "ride your own ride". You cannot keep up, quickly fall behind and are now reliant on a route sheet to follow along the route all alone.
Does this fall into group riding - if it was me, certainly not.
So what is "fast"
The riders who go out to sweeper land and run triple digits?
The riders who run triple digits down the straights and panic in every turn, so they crawl through them at a snails pace?
The riders who run double plus 20 on nothing roads (probably those sweeper guys)
The riders who find the tightest most technically challenging roads and run them at double or perhaps even double plus 10/20....
"Fast" is so subject to opinion....
FYI--your scenario would never happen from any of the ride leaders who routinely lead MNMSTA rides.
And yes I am a "ride your own ride" supporter. I lead lots of rides with no route sheet for anyone but me( or I lead from memory or make it up as I go or...)- and then I expect to keep the group together at road changes etc, but not in the turns so much. I fully expect everyone in the group to ride well within their limits and be "safe".....of course most leaders (myself anyways) ride down to the slowest person in the group, or atleast slower so they aren't playing too much "catch up"...But when I host a ride with everyone having a route sheet, or expected that they have a route sheet-I expect I can simply go and not look back...you keep up, great-you don't, well you have a route sheet.........does this actually happen-not too often....But it should work that way if everyone actually rode thier own ride.
So what is "fast"?
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Being "fast" is very relative, this is my point. Although my scenario is extreme, hopefully it points out the many flaws in "ride your own ride" for group rides.
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Ian,
As I'm one of a very small handful of people who have arguable put on the most open-forum rides in the last 10 years *, I've grown weary of constant criticism from those that seam to rarely if ever conduct open-forum rides.
Perhaps you could give us your insight as to what would make open-forum group rides more enjoyable from your perspective. I believe you probably have great organizational skills as you are involved in teaching motorcycling classes (albeit absolute novice, right?) and I'm sure some of those skills could be applied in this instance. Please lay out, step by step, they ways you feel a ride should be conducted.
Sincerely,
Greg not Steve
*not boasting, believe me. just a fact
Greg,
I could defend my choice to volunteer my time to teach entry level track riders, but obviously there was a dig at my skill level intended by your using "absolute novice" which doesn't deserve anything more than to point out that I taught my first class in 1980.
When I first joined HSTA, I had more time available and did lead one ride. I also successfully created and ran a charity ride for 30 riders for 7 years where I created the route sheet, lead the ride and handled many of the logistics including route sheets.
Having laid out my credentials as you asked... All I was saying in that last post was that there is a flaw in how many route sheet based rides place higher stress levels on the newer riders who sometimes get overloaded. My charity rides always have two routes, one longer than the other so that we arrive at luch together with no one feeling they had to ride over their head. Our leaders and sweeps always pre-ride the route the week before and we keep the groups small and managable. We also have a trailer available for mechanicals. While the trailer is not practical for forum rides, the other suggestions can be useful for setting up an introductory (or slower rider friendly) ride for MSTA participants.
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My charity rides always have two routes, one longer than the other so that we arrive at luch together with no one feeling they had to ride over their head.
We implemented something similar on my Lake Superior ride... worked perfectly. We all rolled in to the motels within minutes of each other.
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So let me post a scenario/question for the "ride your own ride" proponents on group rides, as I personally think the two concepts are orthogonal:
My close-knit riding buddies and I decide to go out on a route that we have ridden many times before and have committed to memory. We invite you along and provide you with a route sheet and tell you to "ride your own ride". You cannot keep up, quickly fall behind and are now reliant on a route sheet to follow along the route all alone.
Does this fall into group riding - if it was me, certainly not.
This scenario certainly comes up now and then. It is unfortunate for the rider whose riding style is much less aggressive. They find themselves doing a solo ride. I find that when the attendance at a ride reaches about a dozen or more riders the problem often goes away because in a group this large there are usually a few people who prefer a slower pace. They usually form their own subgroup. I have even seen instances where one or two experienced riders have sacrificed their own ride in order to guide a less aggressive rider along the route.
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Greg, I would argue that Ian's role to teach newbies their first experience on the track is more challenging than advanced training. I was one of his students at my first (and only) DCTC last year and he had no shortage of skill levels he was trying to deal with in one group. It amounted to herding cats and it was not something I could (or would want to) do.
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I stand by my post.I want to hear solutions to what some feel are the problems with the way organized rides are conducted.
I see a trend in these forums. A trend that is prevelant in business as well as in civic and social organizations. A whole lot of whining and not a lot of problem solving.
Walk the walk. Show me, with actions, a better way.
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^ where should I, I, I, me start? This is a discussion, different opinions, nobody needs to show you anything!
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Surprised this topic is still going. There's no one answer to any of these questions. A lot depends on who the specific leader is, the composition of the group and what if any newer riders are present.
To those looking for a codified policy about how group rides are or should be run, you will never be satisfied with anything posted here for the reason above. It's important to remember that we do this for fun. I don't swing a leg over my bike every weekend so I can follow the MSTA's 813 rules to group riding. That said, a couple of things I see as TRENDS (not rules) on MSTA rides:
--Slowing in the straights to allow slower riders to rejoin the rest of the group. There is no local stretch of roads where this is not an option.
--Pausing at route changes for the group to reform. If you are not blasting the straights, this never takes more than a minute or two, regardless of the spread in skill levels.
--Posting the route ahead of time or handing out route sheets in the AM.
--In large or mixed experience groups, having a pre-ride discussion about what the day will be like. So often, riders trying to "keep up" and binning it or having a shitty day comes from them being worried about being left behind and never seeing the group again. Talking about how the ride will be run can help with this.
--Splitting large groups into smaller ones, in my experience this greatly reduces the slinky effect.
To those saying that a rider who has to navigate a route sheet solo isn't going to have any fun because they are no longer part of the "group", lots of the fun on these rides comes from hanging out at gas and lunch stops. The folks that frequent these rides are in general class acts and a good time.
Last, not speaking for Ray, Tony or MN-MSTA, if you show up to a couple of rides and they are not what you want, vote with your feet. There are an infinite number of types of groups to ride with, from riding with a buddy to the 500 + bike thing that takes place once a year, from smell the roses to double plus all day every day. Groups can't be everything for everybody, sometimes the best call might be to find a different group that suits YOUR preferences more.
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I don't like to use the term "fast" to describe the pace of a ride. It is too subjective. I prefer the term aggressive.
As an example I last rolled thru turn one at Brainerd (in the rain) at an indicated 125. With the wide track, good sight line, and banking I felt like I was not riding aggressively. Yet there have been times in WI and AR where I have charged into a blind corner at just 40-45 indicated and I was stressed and using my entire lane to make a corner marked for 20 mph. So at Brainerd I was going faster but I was much more aggressive in WI and AR.
Just my .02.
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As we wait for the proposed new ideas on ways to coordinate open forum rides, I'd like to throw these facts into the mix and ask the folks with new ideas to keep these things in mind.
I was on the Westby 3 day ride in northern Wisconsin last weekend. There were about 25 riders in attendance. Many old-school HSTA members, as well as current and new riders.
These were the riders in attendance:
Riders on touring, sport-touring, naked standards, sport-bikes, dual-sports and off-road bikes.
Riders who prefer gas stops every 50, 75, or 100 miles
Riders who prefer gas stops in duration of 10, 15, 30 minutes.
Riders who prefer lunch stops for 15, 30 or 60 minutes.
Riders who ride posted speeds, 5mph over, 15mph over, 20mph+ over.
Riders who crack the throttle exiting a turn.
Riders who crack the throttle entering a turn.
Riders 1 up, 2 up.
Riders who lean towards group cycling as a social event.
Riders who view group cycling as a test of skill and endurance.
Route sheets and a "ride your own ride" philosophy was adhered to, with nary a grumble.
And everyone of these riders has a comfort zone that they (if smart) will not exceed if given the choice. And keep in mind, I believe all of these different "comfort zones" are valid for said riders and no styles are better or worse than the other.
So please keep the myriad of riders and riding styles in mind when drafting these new ideas.
Cheers,
Greg
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Wonderful ain't it? The beauty is everyone will find someone that rides their comfort zone and there is no concern about keeping a large group together.
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Well, I got out for a 230 mile ride today, it was fairly spontaneous because I decided against going to the state fair with wife and her family. It was nice but riding in a group is more enjoyable. Look forward to another group ride.
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It was nice but riding in a group is more enjoyable.
Yet, solo riding still easily beats attending the Great Minnesota Sweat-Together.
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Sanctioned MNSTA ride - ice cream and how to read a route sheet without putting yourself and others in danger ride 101. I'll be the first to sign up (next year). Yep, I can lead the "fast" group but it sure as hell is not from a route sheet.
A year later and this hasn't happened yet.
When will this be up on the calender?
Yes Tim I am taking you at your word that you would lead this ride this year. I am on hiatus from doing the introductory rides this year.