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General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: HSL on May 16, 2011, 12:14:28 AM
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Before you give me the "man up and pay" speech... yes I will.
But if there is a reasonable way to protect my squeaky-clean driving record, it would be silly not to do that. My understanding is that WI offenses do get usually reported to MN. Has anyone any practical experience with asking for leniency regarding the reporting, or pleading guilty to a non-moving violation instead?
Would one preferably talk to the prosecutor, a hearing officer, the judge? The venue is Pierce county, WI (it wa on WI-35 south of Prescott, 70 in 55 zone) -- with Prescott in their jurisdiction, I assume that they are not extremely sympathetic to two-wheeled speeders...
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How to handle a MN speeding ticket?
Dakota co sheriff, 33deg out, cold windy as all heck, cracked my visor on 50 by 61? top of the last of the humps . 71 or 2, written at 64.
clean record also.
HSL, sorry i cant advise but I'm in the same boat.
any advise would be great, i have no shot of "fighting" the ticket.
thanks guys.
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On occasion in the past I've spoken to the prosecutor prior to the appearance and to the judge at the appearance. Speaking with the prosecutor works well when you have a clear defense. I haven't tried speaking with the prosecutor to simply ask for leniency based on having a clean record or some other rationale, but it is free except for your time. Most prosecutors have specific times set up for defendants to speak with them. I've also hired attorneys. Best success has been using an attorney. Haven't bothered with any of this in a long time, as the cost in time and money to fight a ticket generally has outweighed the benefit.
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Sorry Ray, but the time invested has always paid benefits for me. The key issue is not that you are 'fighting' the ticket' rather that you are working within the system for the best possible outcome.
Dakota is no problem. Go to the hearing date on your ticket. Dress respectfully. Ask to speak to prosecutor. The prosecuter may offer you a "stay in lieu of adjudication with no similar". That means if you don't get a similar ticket for 1 year (or they don't hear from another county) then the guilty charge is wiped off your record and your insurer does not hearabout it. Cost for that is usually a few bucks less than the actual ticket with a clean license. If the prosecutor is busy, he may give the judge a sheet that he can offer the same deals with sliding prices based on your record. I've done this once and made my son go through it once. I am convinced that you should never just pay a ticket!!!
Not sure how WI works, but just showing up and being respectful will probably give you some options that mailing it in will not.
Much thanks to Tom Gallager (Red Ducati) for teaching me this information.
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Aprillian is absolutely correct in all respects.
A little additional advice: treat the prosecutor as you would the cop. He or she is typically young, getting experience, knows they have you (very few speeding tickets have a true defense). Thus, be respectful and do not insult their intelligence.
I'll check to see if I can find out anything specific about Pierce county.
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Thanks for all the feedback so far with which I very much agree. I find that most people have an inclination to be helpful when asked respectfully.
I'll check to see if I can find out anything specific about Pierce county.
That would be great. I was hoping that someone had specific experience there as to what would be the best approach -- sort of like the stuff people know about Dakota county.
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thanks from me also guys, very helpful.
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Sorry Ray, but the time invested has always paid benefits for me. The key issue is not that you are 'fighting' the ticket' rather that you are working within the system for the best possible outcome.
Dakota is no problem. Go to the hearing date on your ticket. Dress respectfully. Ask to speak to prosecutor. The prosecuter may offer you a "stay in lieu of adjudication with no similar". That means if you don't get a similar ticket for 1 year (or they don't hear from another county) then the guilty charge is wiped off your record and your insurer does not hearabout it. Cost for that is usually a few bucks less than the actual ticket with a clean license. If the prosecutor is busy, he may give the judge a sheet that he can offer the same deals with sliding prices based on your record. I've done this once and made my son go through it once. I am convinced that you should never just pay a ticket!!!
Not sure how WI works, but just showing up and being respectful will probably give you some options that mailing it in will not.
Much thanks to Tom Gallager (Red Ducati) for teaching me this information.
This is how it worked for me in Dakota County back in December.
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Got a ticket for 88 in a 65 reduced to unreAsonable acceleration cause I talked to the prosecutor, just use your manners, dress nice and listen. They hear excuses all day long say your sorry and learned your lesson an hope for the best :) good luck
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You still got a moving violation ticket. What did you win? Looks to me that you still lost.
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I spoke with one of my colleagues who handles traffic tickets from time to time.
She indicates that in Wisconsin, you enter a not guilty plea (in writing). This cancels the court date on the citation and sets the matter for pretrial. Pretrial is generally set about a month out.
This gives you an opportunity to speak with the prosecuting attorney. Generally you can resolve the issue with him by stipulation. You will then not need to appear.
Prior to attempting to negotiate, request the records relating to the citation from the DA. Once you get them, call the DA to discuss resolution. They will typically provide a little bit of a discount on either the fine or points. She states "I can get better deals for WI residents as I have the points system to work with. Since MN does not have points, and the DAs know it does not matter, the DAs across the state that I have worked with have played with that fact and play hard ball on the fines/levels of speeding. There is a statutory minimum amount associated with the levels of speeding ranges, so you may be able to get it reduced a level. You can also get the ticket converted to non-moving of some sort, but it is quite unlikely unless you have some good facts."
Pierce County only has 1 judge, so there is nothing to consider regarding requesting a change of judge. He is the master of his domain. As she opines, "I think it more depends on how tolerant the DA or assist DAs are of 2 wheels. All 3 are male, so perhaps they would be more understanding."
I can provide you with a form not guilty plea if you PM me. However, the court is very lenient with pro se defendants. I suggest simply calling the DA and indicating that you want to plea not guilty, ask for a pretrial date and request the records. Make sure to do so before the court date. I am sure you can also appear and plead not guilty then, but this necessitates a trip to the court house.
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Elk, thanks for the great writeup, and thanks also to your colleague who volunteered all that information.
I am just a little confused by the comment on the DAs playing hardball with MN residents.
In MN, speeding convictions of no more than 10 mph over won't go on the record. So all it takes is the charge to be dropped from 70 to 65 mph. For WI, that wouldn't make a difference because all speeding violations from 1 to 15 over fall in the same bracket and carry the exact same fine. So one would think that would be easy enough to do for the DA, if he wanted to be nice, without hurting Pierce County's revenue. Where is my logic wrong?
Unless anybody here has any more specifics on the people to deal with in Pierce county I'll just make a cold call to their office and hope for the best. (Am I really the only idiot who ever got clocked on WI-35?)
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You Minnesota people stay out of our fine state and ride your own roads! ;D
I would think it's public knowledge/common sense to not speed on hwy 35, but people get busted all the time doing just that. Good luck with your ticket, they really do suck.
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Ive heard of courts offering to drop the speeding for a "lesser charge", with a lower fine, but careless, or wreckless driving, is usually frowned upon by insurance more than speeding. Not my own experience, but Ive heard from friends who have had trouble in the past. So be careful what you agree to.
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You still got a moving violation ticket. What did you win? Looks to me that you still lost.
No; unncessary acceleration doesn't show up on my record for insurance and all that..plus the ticket was pretty much cut it half
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update on mine :
my neighbor is a Leo and looked at my ticket. he said the statute it is written under is just a fine. no insurance and if he runs me he cant see it on his screen. hell cant ask for more than that, i don't mind contributing since i know its a heck of a lot less than other times i could have been stopped.
best of luck to the others.
Joel
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my neighbor is a Leo and looked at my ticket. he said the statute it is written under is just a fine. no insurance and if he runs me he cant see it on his screen.
All speeding" is just a fine" unless it is excessive or repetitive and triggers a license suspension, etc. What's the statute on the citation?
I assume that he would not see the ticket until it is paid (pleading guilty) or is adjudicated. Prior to this it is just a charge. It's that pesky innocent until proven guilty Constitutional thing. :) (He may however have access to pending charges however - I don't know.)
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All speeding" is just a fine" unless it is excessive or repetitive and triggers a license suspension, etc. What's the statute on the citation?
Well, not quite -- a fine, and a record of the conviction on your driving record (which then entails the consequences not prescribed by law but by your insurance policy).
Joel's neighbor might have been referring to the fact that he was written up as 64, and that's just below the 65+ threshold that would put it on the driving record in MN (assuming it was in a 55 zone). Basically Joel already got the break from a sympathetic cop that I'm still trying to get from the DA...
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10-4, i cant get any better, i'll post the statute when i get a chance.
no record on my license, just a fine is where i am at. HSL, i think you are correct with me, wish u the best in your deal.
Joel
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Ah . . . I see what you mean.
Speeding tickets are written pursuant to MM. Stat. 169.14, and there is a requirement that the mph over the limit be noted. Then, by operation of MN. Stat. 171.12 some speeding convictions are not recorded and, thus, not accessible by an ins co.
Here is the language of 171.12
Subd. 6.Certain convictions not recorded.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), the department shall not keep on the record of a driver any conviction for a violation of a speed limit of 55 or 60 miles per hour unless the violation consisted of a speed greater than ten miles per hour in excess of a 55 miles per hour speed limit, or more than five miles per hour in excess of a 60 miles per hour speed limit.
(b) This subdivision does not apply to (1) a violation that occurs in a commercial motor vehicle, or (2) a violation committed by a holder of a class A, B, or C commercial driver's license, without regard to whether the violation was committed in a commercial motor vehicle or another vehicle.
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169-14-2-a-3 speed over 55 1-10 over the limit 64 in 55
Elk, is this one of the good ones ??
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I assume you are referring to Minn. Stat. 169.14, subd. 2(a).
This section provides for a passing buffer of increased speed under certain conditions. This means you should not get a ticket if you meet the requirements of the statute. Here is the language:
"Increased speed limit when passing.
Notwithstanding subdivision 2, the speed limit is increased by ten miles per hour over the posted speed limit when the driver:
(1) is on a two-lane highway having one lane for each direction of travel;
(2) is on a highway with a posted speed limit that is equal to or higher than 55 miles per hour;
(3) is overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction of travel; and
[meet the typical requirements for passing - no double yellow, etc.]
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http://www.mncourts.gov/Documents/4/Public/Traffic_Violations/2009statutes-rules.pdf
MINNESOTA STATUTES
169.14(2)(a)(3)
TRAFFIC
PETTY MISDEMEANOR
Speed greater than 55 miles per hour 1 to 10 over the limit
$145.00
NO (CERTIFY TO DRIVERS RECORD)
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Almost. The chart you reference is a shorthand. Here is how it works. It's a little complicated to follow.
169.14, subd, 2(a) sets specific speed limits for various types of roads.
169.14, subd. 2(a)(3) sets the 55 mph limit on certain roads: "55 miles per hour in locations other than those specified in this section;"
This is the specific section of 169.14 which you violate if you go over 55 mph in a 55 mph zone.
169.99, subd. 1(b) requires:
"The uniform traffic ticket must provide a blank or space wherein an officer who issues a citation for a violation of a speed limit of 55 or 60 miles per hour must specify whether the speed was greater than ten miles per hour in excess of a 55 miles per hour speed limit, or more than five miles per hour in excess of a 60 miles per hour speed limit."
This is because the prosecutor and court must know whether 171.12, subd. 6(a) applies:
". . . the department shall not keep on the record of a driver any conviction for a violation of a speed limit of 55 or 60 miles per hour unless the violation consisted of a speed greater than ten miles per hour in excess of a 55 miles per hour speed limit, or more than five miles per hour in excess of a 60 miles per hour speed limit."
I hope this makes sense.
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man, i must be slow. felt like Charlie brown trying to read that this early. ???
i think i understand not on my record, just a fine. correct ?? (translated for the slow folk ;))
HSL, sorry to be so active on your thread. Hope you get some answers soon.
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Like a lot of statutory schemes, it's complicated.
In Minn. a fine and no record of conviction for:
- 10 mph over and less in a 55 mph zone
- 5 mph over and less in a 60 mph zone
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Much experience in my more youthful days with these types of things ranging from speeding tickets to reckless driving charges.
The speeding tickets are the hardest to fight as there isn't much they can be reduced to, however in both TX and OK you can take a defensive driving class once each year to negate one minor moving violation, in addition to a fine. In OK I got nabbed doing 78/55 and I called and left a message with the DA office stating I had a clean record, and I later got something in the mail from them saying they would basically throw it out if I payed a fine of a bit more than the speeding ticket amount, however it's usually never that easy at all. For the most part down South is easier to work with. Only some counties in MN will do the In Lieu of Adjudication because many don't have the means to track it if they did.
Good luck. It's very difficult to keep a modern motorcycle near 55mph so I understand. I'm just super wary of police nowadays. I assume they are everywhere.
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Ok, reverting back to the original topic...
I had my day in court today. So this is what I can say about handling a speeding ticket in Pierce County:
- First of all, you have to enter a plea of Not Guilty. This can be done by fax. No one will talk to you before that.
- A Pre-Trial Conference will be scheduled about two weeks after the Initial Appearance date stated on your citation. That's your first chance to talk to anyone. Tried to call the DA before but got stonewalled.
- At the Pre-Trial Conference, there are two people in the court room, the court commissioner presiding, and the district attorney negotiating (if so inclined). You can chose to call in by phone -- but it's your choice whether to be a nice guy sitting at the defense table, or a creaky voice out of the conference call device perched on the commissioner's bench.
- I don't want to spoil the chances for others by dragging the details of these proceedings out into the public view. I will just say that I found everyone involved (court commissioner and DA) to be very decent people. I went in modestly, did not try to bullshit anyone, no phony excuses. The only thing I offered was a spotless driving record of 25 years which certainly helped. And I made some (what I thought) reasonable proposals how to settle the matter.
So my bottom line is -- it's certainly worthwhile making the trip.
Thanks for all the advice from people here and particularly from Elk!
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Well done!