mn-msta.com
General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Yul on September 23, 2011, 07:26:21 PM
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I am encouraging others to hear me out, and I have started a new topic to do so.
My perspective is that of a former rider coach with sincere concerns for rider safety. I joined in January after discovering this site from colleagues of mine whom were not fond of the typical motorcycle message boards. I have read posts and topics without commenting until now. And I guess that is not customary here.
My hope is to engage in thoughtful discourse about riding safety and keeping other riders from harm; not to stroke egos or flex virtual tough guy attitudes behind a keyboard. From what I have read in previous posts, most on here do not appreciate that electronic mundane bullshit either. I am in the pursuit of a common truth grounded in civil discourse and based on intelligent thought supported by real evidence.
To others that had obviously just reacted to Tim and joined in on the feeding frenzy:
I invite you to please re-read my post and offer an intelligent rebuttal (here). Let's have a good conversation and engage in civil discourse. Perhaps we call all learn something... or continue to act as those you claim to disapprove of; on "those forums".
Could it be time to reevaluate the culture of group riding here with the Co-Director crashing more times in one season than many in a lifetime of motorcycling?
I mean no offense. I am just indicating the alarming statistics of this group and crashes. And it would not be an issue if the mantra of the this association did not include an emphasis on safe riding. I just recall the front page having a outline of safe riding practices which I thoroughly respected. Has the absence of that page now communicated a philosophy shift? Has the focus of balancing of riding safely and fun been eliminated?
I am just curious. I have not attended a group ride with anyone here, but reading these recent reports and posts about crashes has been rather concerning to me.
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We're always discussing this topic. Even the most benign topic heading usually has some form of discussion over this topic. If you feel this isn't the case, you are not digging far enough into the threads. Personally I would rather you introduce yourself, tell us a little about yourself, tell us about your ride(s), what you like about those ride(s), what you like about riding, etc etc. The discussions over safety occur on their own for various reasons. Showing up in the middle of Tony's accident thread to pontificate about riding style is not a positive way of getting to know us or advancing your agenda.
Someone suggested you are simply a troll. I'm giving you the benefit of doubt. But you have to introduce yourself, with some background information, or I'll just assume the same.
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So what is your comment?
You are a former rider coach and have read everything since January of this year and you have asked the question is it time to reevaluate the culture of group riding here.
Is your comment the question? The build up makes me think the question is a loaded one. One which you've thought about and have an opinion on already.
You've read my response to your question. Before discussing further, I'd like to see a direct comment rather than a question from you. As PKPK commented, I'd also like to get a better feel for what you know and your background aside from being a former rider coach. As you may be aware Tony is a long time and current rider coach, and as you may know there are quite a few rider coaches on this forum, so the perspectives of rider coaches aren't new to the forum. Knowing where you're coming from will help better understand your comments in the context of your background since we've never met or ridden with you.
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But you have to introduce yourself, with some background information, or I'll just assume the same.
As I stated before, I am a former rider coach; I think that will suffice.
I am not interested in participating in online pugilism... I thought I made that clear.
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As I stated before, I am a former rider coach; I think that will suffice.
I am not interested in participating in online pugilism... I thought I made that clear.
The body language is everything. Nothing more to say.
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'user YUL has blocked your message"
hey YUL--I do know how to copy and paste.
"I am dissappointed in your jumping on Tony and on the forum as a whole.
Furthermore, you refuse to actual engage in real discussion, you claim you want intellectual discussion, yet you evade....
So please, go on your thread and join in, if you are here for the betterment of the group. PLease spill your words of wisdom, reveal your truths, show us what you know or at the least share some thoughts and insight."
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YUL's first post on mn-msta
"Could it be time to reevaluate the culture of group riding here with the Co-Director crashing more times in one season than many in a lifetime of motorcycling?
I mean no offense. I am just indicating the alarming statistics of this group and crashes. And it would not be an issue if the mantra of the this association did not include an emphasis on safe riding. I just recall the front page having a outline of safe riding practices which I thoroughly respected. Has the absence of that page now communicated a philosophy shift? Has the focus of balancing of riding safely and fun been eliminated?
I am just curious. I have not attended a group ride with anyone here, but reading these recent reports and posts about crashes has been rather concerning to me."
I just can't let this go......especially the very last line
"....reading these recent reports and posts about crashes has been rather concerning to me."
and this line;
"I am just indicating the alarming statistics of this group and crashes"
So you read on the other forums how crashing is a badge of honor and they proudly display and brag about it....So you read on the other forums how dozens of riders on each of them crash weekly, monthly some more than others. You read how 8 of them crashed last weekend?
Look I am on over a dozen forums, I have read it all, heard how they brag, heard others make excuses...You know what I have found on this forum, no one brags, no one makes excuses. Everyone on this forum knows that if they fall down it is their own damn fault. Everyone on this forum takes safety seriously (atleast everyone I would be willing to ride with, as there are faces I do not know and members I would not ride within 100 miles of)
So I ask you, where are all these "recent reports and posts" about crashes? I know of most all that happens and I can count this years crashers and it is less than one of those "other forums" had last weekend.
Are you seriously trying to make the argument that MN-MSTA riders are wreckless or under skilled or somehow not riding in a safe manner?
Or that "we" are somehow more prone to crashing because of how and who we ride with?
Or, that mn-msta members crash more than other local forums?
Come on---where are your facts, what is the basis for your hate on mn-msta?
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I don't really want to assume that Yul isn't a speed-reader, but I happened to click into his/her stats this morning and he'd only been online for 10 minutes since January. <shrug>
Given that he hasn't ridden on a MN-MSTA group ride I basically don't expect that there is much specific feedback that will be provided even if he does choose to respond (and I sincerely hope he does). I will say that statistics should support that forum members are safer than average based on the number of miles and the relative difficulty of roads most often chosen.
Since our pants are down, I just did Hwy 7 in the dark twice :) It was cold and foggy by the river but didn't see a single deer. Probably the slowest I've ever gone through there but I was on time for the late movie in RW, and didn't get pulled over by the cop that u-turned behind me coming in on 19 by 6.
a.s.
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38 minutes according to his profile, of course his 3 posts now likely took up much of that.
So what is available without being logged in, took him ?? 15 minutes ?? the rest he could read by trolling......makes a case for having to be logged in to read anything, IMO
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ah, my bad, i thought you had to be logged in to see most of the posts, guess i had that backwards.
a.s.
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I am in the pursuit of a common truth grounded in civil discourse and based on intelligent thought supported by real evidence.
One common truth is that riding a motorcycle involves risk. Another truth is that some consequences are less desirable than others. Still another truth is that protective gear can reduce the undesirable consequences of a crash. Tony's outcome was one of the less desirable ones, but still, it wasn't as bad as it could have been had he not managed the risk by wearing protective gear.
I'm not sure that there is a "common truth" about motorcycle crashes. The crashes themselves are varied. There is the kind where the rider panics and rides off the road, and there are the ones where a skilled rider misjudges the available traction and slides across, and sometimes off, the road. The causes of these two types of crashes are almost mutually exclusive.
It's hard to tell what you're looking for. Criticizing the culture of the group in an anonymous post is unlikely to stimulate intelligent conversation. I'm not not one of those who thinks you should STFU, but I do wonder why you're here.
Brent
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As I stated before, I am a former rider coach; I think that will suffice.
I am not interested in participating in online pugilism... I thought I made that clear.
Bye Bye then.
As a former rider coach with MSF and current advanced riding coach, I don't view any of those credentials as a justification of declining to state my identity or personal situation.
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I am encouraging others to hear me out, and I have started a new topic to do so.
My perspective is that of a former rider coach with sincere concerns for rider safety. I joined in January after discovering this site from colleagues of mine whom were not fond of the typical motorcycle message boards. I have read posts and topics without commenting until now. And I guess that is not customary here.
My hope is to engage in thoughtful discourse about riding safety and keeping other riders from harm; not to stroke egos or flex virtual tough guy attitudes behind a keyboard. From what I have read in previous posts, most on here do not appreciate that electronic mundane bullshit either. I am in the pursuit of a common truth grounded in civil discourse and based on intelligent thought supported by real evidence.
To others that had obviously just reacted to Tim and joined in on the feeding frenzy:
I invite you to please re-read my post and offer an intelligent rebuttal (here). Let's have a good conversation and engage in civil discourse. Perhaps we call all learn something... or continue to act as those you claim to disapprove of; on "those forums".
Could it be time to reevaluate the culture of group riding here with the Co-Director crashing more times in one season than many in a lifetime of motorcycling?
I mean no offense. I am just indicating the alarming statistics of this group and crashes. And it would not be an issue if the mantra of the this association did not include an emphasis on safe riding. I just recall the front page having a outline of safe riding practices which I thoroughly respected. Has the absence of that page now communicated a philosophy shift? Has the focus of balancing of riding safely and fun been eliminated?
I am just curious. I have not attended a group ride with anyone here, but reading these recent reports and posts about crashes has been rather concerning to me.
Yul,
Thanks for your concerns about rider safety. I am going to take you at your word that promoting it was your true motivation in posting.
I think some of the member's points above go straight to the heart of the matter. The issues with your posts can be boiled down to perspective and credibility. No one on this board knows you and because of that no one knows where you're coming from. Entering a thread which is about a well respected member of the MSTA who has just been seriously injured and then raising questions about the group's "culture" it's not surprising that you got the response that you did. I'm not saying it's a bad conversation to have, as others have pointed out it has been discussed at length in the past, but you have to have some background on what you're discussing. Reading a forum off and on for a year doesn't give you any real perspective about about what this group or it's "culture" is. The fact that you haven't posted until now also gave some (including me) the impression that your motivation was not to contribute something positive to the group but just to shit-stir.
I also don't think that your comments toward Tim are going to to get you anywhere. You say that you're here for civil discourse based on intelligent thought so why don't you stay on the high road?
JP
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Thought I made a mistake and logged Into Mnsbr after reading this post lol
Yul- these guys put on 1000s of miles each season so staying crash free is inevitable. Training obviously reduces the risk of these accidents however; many things are simply beyond our control (ie deer, road hazards seen until it'd too late and so on). Tony is a very experienced rider that has a lot of influence in the sportbike community and simply flaming him for having a crash is a very good way to start off on the wrong foot here.
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holy fuck! whats with all the big fancy words? shit happens, ppl make mistakes big deal. i dont see how tony's lil fall has anything to do with the "culture" or anyone. ive been on some awesome rides with a few of these guys, more then a couple with tony. i guess unless you were in arkansas following him, or been on other rides with this group, well i would keep them kind of opinions to yourself.
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holy fuck! whats with all the big fancy words? shit happens, ppl make mistakes big deal. i dont see how tony's lil fall has anything to do with the "culture" or anyone. ive been on some awesome rides with a few of these guys, more then a couple with tony. i guess unless you were in arkansas following him, or been on other rides with this group, well i would keep them kind of opinions to yourself.
It's a Zebco. Nothing more. Ignore him.
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funny thing is that this forum is snapping back and protecting one of its own.
so Yul, if you haven't already deleted your account, feel free to show up at the next ride and see for yourself. even though you have an abrasive way to contribute to the community, we are here to ride, so show up and learn something.
report back here and tell us if the ride was conducted in a safe and prudent manner.......my money is on you changing your "theoretical mind" with an actual experience with the group, and not this "electronical experience".
Basically.............show your balls please.
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I don't want to see anyone's balls.
holy fuck! whats with all the big fancy words? shit happens, ppl make mistakes big deal. i dont see how tony's lil fall has anything to do with the "culture" or anyone. ive been on some awesome rides with a few of these guys, more then a couple with tony. i guess unless you were in arkansas following him, or been on other rides with this group, well i would keep them kind of opinions to yourself.
exactly!
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I'm still not understanding this whole need for "questions and analysis" thing on this forum.
I guess for me, motorcycling is just an answer and does not need further analysis and disection.
Just ride the bike, dude.
I can only express my perspective on this
The "need" is fueled by there are so many members from other forums migrating over here. So many "newbies" who haven't been around for years and years and everyone knows them and how they ride.
So many members now who only post and never join a ride, or worse they only lurk then make some half cocked assumption and post it up as there introduction.
I may be very active on both ride organization/participation and the forum but I am not a long time member. There are numerous members who have been part of all the previous forms of the "club" and participate even more. Many who have stopped participating because of the "newbies" and perhaps even because of the "new" forum itself, and certainly some because of the way we have "cater" to newbies on the rides.
I hated the yahoo format simply because it was hard to use, I loved the yahoo format simply because of its simplicity and all you really saw on their was ride postings. When you "talked" to other people it was actually at the ride meeting spot and the creamary afterwards etc...you know in person face to face---In the era of internet everything, texting all day etc, I think that people have lost the ability to actually communicate (myself included)
This new (way too easy to use) format sucks rocks, because all it requires is for someone to have internet access and they can post up whatever they want whenever they want about anything they want and there are no real ramifications about it at all...oh boo hoo, you may get banned (very doubtful) it is far mor likely you will get a pm telling you of the error of your ways and hope that you see and agree and take appropriate steps.
"growing" the organization (if that is actually what is happening, I see 2 join, 1 leave. And you usually the 1 that leaves is worth more than 10 "newbies"...call me an elitist if you will, but I rather enjoy riding with and socializing with the 25 or so "old timers" and only about 4 of the new 100+ joinies since the format change.
I would much rather see 30-40 solid members who actually do have same or similar beliefs and riding (even if some are interested in a "fast paced, black diamond" ride while others want to "stop and smell the roses" and still others want to ride in the woods or fireroads. That is much more appealing to me than 200+ "members" where the vast majority have never even participated in a ride or anything productive for the organization.
So many of the postings that talk about ride safety and riding styles etc........yep all because there are so many uninitiated "newbies" who don't even participate and when they do (if they do) they are rudely awoken to what "pace" riding really is.
Like I have said many times, some people that have joined a ride have said "you guys are so slow" and others have said "you guys are so fast", it is all a matter of perspective. If you like running 100+ in a straight line and parking it in the turns, go find one of the other forums...if you think the street is a race track, hey those forums are perect for that too. On the other end if you think riding the posted recommended speed in the turns is fast, then you probably won't fit in here either-I am not saying you have to ride double +20 in the turns to enjoy a ride, but you should atleast have the capabilities and skills to do so.
FWIW
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I am not saying you have to ride double +20 in the turns to enjoy a ride, but you should atleast have the capabilities and skills to do so.
FWIW
Ding ding ding.........enough said. I absolutely agree and if you don't have those capabilities & skills, get some training.
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I am not saying you have to ride double +20 in the turns to enjoy a ride, but you should atleast have the capabilities and skills to do so.
FWIW
Ding ding ding.........enough said. I absolutely agree and if you don't have those capabilities & skills, get some training.
I absolutely disagree. Most people will never have the skills, no matter how much training they get, to ride double plus 20 through the turns.
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^ I perhaps should have clarified.
If you intend on joining in on the "black diamond" type of rides.
Of course there are other forum rides for the "slow" folks...lol
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"I absolutely disagree. Most people will never have the skills, no matter how much training they get, to ride double plus 20 through the turns."
I guess I could be snarky now and argue this is exactly why we should stay a small elistist organization....LOL
oh the can o worms this could bring
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You make a good point, Lloyd. Ray has said that he started the original list to find people to ride with. I'm pretty sure he's more interested in fast, safe, experienced riders on sporty bikes who want to ride hundreds of miles of twisty roads per day, as opposed to relatively slow, inexperienced, slow cruiser riders who want to spend as much time stopped as riding. That seems natural and normal, and I don't have a problem with that.
I just think it's kind of interesting that so many of us rate our own skill level by the speeds we're willing to ride and the risks we're willing to take. I'm not saying that speed and risk-taking is bad. I'm just saying that it's not the only way to rate a rider, and the street is a terrible place to do that.
Some of the faster people I've ridden with have been fascinating, but so have some of the slower, more risk-averse people. I can't say I've learned more from one group than from the other.
Brent
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quote author=Vander link=topic=803.msg7715#msg7715 date=1317069764]
Double + 20? :o
I am assuming that your assessment of "capability" is excluding any and all road anomalies, yes?
[/quote]
I never set out on a ride and say "today I am going to ride double +20 through every turn" that would be foolhardy and the sure sign of what I consider to be an IDIOT !
I always take into account road conditions, as well as numerous other factors. The "core" group of "black diamond" riders on here do.
I have no problem leading a group or riding in a group or even riding solo at a "slower" pace.
I do think (without speaking for all of them) that everyone on here I actually enjoy ridng with feel the same way.
So even though popular opinion is that I only ride black diamond routes at break neck (double+20) speeds...Well atleast they got the black diamond routes correct, yes those are definately my preffered routes.
I am all for riders having a "slower" pace, or prefferring different roads or riding styles, but have you read the front page?
Have you joined in on any of the vast majority of rides? ( not you Brent, I know you have the skills and have joined)
Black diamond roads and skills required should be that of those who are capable of riding double +20, accidents still can and will happen, even the cruiser guys who never exceed 60mph and have to put their feet down in the turns to keep from tipping over have accidents (statistically more, surprisingly---so I am told by someone in the insurance industry).
Anyways, the forum seems to have been built on the philosophy of; ride the toughest most challenging roads one can find and link together at speeds (pace riding but brisk to say the least) that will make many cringe. With other finely tuned, well skilled individuals.
Today we seem to have a few "groups" within the group---and I am all for that ! But the "black diamond" riders still are the majority of rides and clearly not for everyone. Especially not for the underskilled and over confident.
Someone else please join in---I can't explain it all.
Vander that is a loaded question----in your last post.
I could ride through it as fast as I could ride though it. Hows that for an evasive answer---where is this road I'll go try it and give you my answer, it looks like a fun road...LOL
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Everyone could ride this curve at roughly the same speed, maybe 50 mph, depending on the bike and how it was set up (suspension, tires, clearance, cargo, etc). How fast I would ride it would depend on a whole lot of factors, such as my perception of the conditions at the time, who I was riding with, how energized I felt, how important it was that I didn't crash, and probably more.
After that, I'm confused. Are you asking how fast we'd enter it? Exit (exist) it? I don't understand the question "Pace?"
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Lots of variables, for me to say.
Where is that road at?
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Based on the size of that truck, that corner should not be marked 15. That is probably the speed suggested for a semi on a dark, snowy and blowing winter night. I notice that there is a gravel pit on the outside of the curve and a dirt pullout on the other side. I'd be cautious around that gravel pit (like the ones on Wi J and MN 60) until I'd been around it enough times to be able to know where I could adjust in response to a bad gravel spill. Otherwise on a clear day, with positive camber, good road surface, good tires, good weather, I'd probably manage 20MPH because I'd have the luck to get stuck behind that truck in your picture (just like the car in the picture).
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i say double black, cuz you won't go back.
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Mullholland? Made me think of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/v/oBTGgT_V5F8
Which direction of travel? Kind of got that decreasing radius thing going on in either direction from the looks of it. Also a multiple apex turn either direction. Top down view is pretty impossible to project what the sight line looks like although I'd expect the clockwise direction to be a bit blind approaching the apex due to the trees on the inside.
I'll bet there is a pretty orbit view off the outside too! Probably be thinking Thelma and Louise going around it....
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.... Ray has said that he started the original list to find people to ride with. I'm pretty sure he's more interested in fast, safe, experienced riders on sporty bikes who want to ride hundreds of miles of twisty roads per day, as opposed to relatively slow, inexperienced, slow cruiser riders who want to spend as much time stopped as riding. T...
I'd say proficient, not fast.
Over the years I've come to see the words "fast" to motorcyclists as a red cape is to a bull.
As long a people are proficient and able to self navigate off a route sheet and take care of themselves on a ride, the more the merrier.
While I personally enjoy a brisk pace, that's my pace, and shouldn't be construed as what others need to ride to enjoy a ride. I'd love to see more riders riding a variety of paces on rides. I think this would make it easier for folks to fit in and find folks to ride with.
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BLACK DIAMOND ELITIST OR "SUPER SQUID"? That's got your attention. What % of our group has these abilities? I never had any training in 50+yrs of riding,CRA racer 76-80,many yrs as corner crewman,and still able to go fairly well @ 65. I personally can't believe the twice plus 20mph thing off the track. There are no corner crews to watch the pavement condition for you and certainly no EMTs to pick up your pieces. What % of our favorite corner haunts are blind? Sooner or later you'll find an incontinent moose has left you a present in the middle of one of your favorite turns. When I was young if I didn't crash once a year I was going too slow! This year has been very bad for crashes on the various forums and fatalities in the DOT statistics. If you like 'Cubic Zirconium' rides and don't mind 'Chicken Stripes' hook up with us slowpokes on one of the weekday rides and maybe discover the beauty that can be missed at 'Warp Speed'. ::)GJ
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"I'd probably manage 20MPH because I'd have the luck to get stuck behind that truck in your picture (just like the car in the picture)."
Aprillian--I hope that is a smallish motorhome towing the car, otherwise they are really tailgating bad. Time for a brake check.
Brent--I do not believe everybody could ride through it at 50 mph, (double +20). There is half the problem, everyone (or atleast far too many) thinks they can do double + 20
Guzzi John--I certainly don't run double +20 on a regular basis, or when I have people behind me (following) I know don't have those skills...the vast majority of the riders I end up with don't have those skills.
Ray--"While I personally enjoy a brisk pace, that's my pace, and shouldn't be construed as what others need to ride to enjoy a ride. I'd love to see more riders riding a variety of paces on rides. I think this would make it easier for folks to fit in and find folks to ride with."
exactly, thus the "ride your own ride" blah blah blah blah blah...omg have we come full circle yet? Is this not what we preach and emphasis and have sought after, holy shit the skies just parted ways, and the sun came out.
Back to John--"BLACK DIAMOND ELITIST OR "SUPER SQUID"? That's got your attention. What % of our group has these abilities? "
Super squid is the idiot who runs break neck speeds down the straights just to "park it" in the turns.....Super squid is the idiot who rides well beyond their capabilities....super squid is the idiot who doesn't actually know their own abilities...Super squids are the guys who run a bald tire another 500 miles, or don't wear "proper" gear....Super squids are all over the forums in many shapes and sizes, but none of them (sans 1) is anyone I would ever ride with once I come to that determination(and he is a part time super squid). So draw your own conclusions on what I consider a super squid, I think it is pretty clear.
So to address your triple black diamond elitist, yes I am an elitist, I only want to ride on triple black diamond routes with other people that are; "proficient", make the good choices, actually have a real knowledge of riding skills and take an active interest in developing their skills, and they know when it is time to go and when it is time to slow, as far as a percentage #...my preffered companions is under 20 total riders I know, most on this forum, but a few who are not---so you do the math...
But I also have no problem riding some scenic "smell the roses" ride with people that are riding within their limits, proficient and skilled enough to ride at their pace, I would not ride with them if they suddenly jumped to the triple black diamond routes and were way out of control or obviously over their head...ie crossing the centerline, blasting down the straights to catch up, etc etc etc...
Finally-you can't believe double +20 off the track, I am not talking about anything posted over say 30, The turns posted higher than 30 or unposted, those turns I would just continue on at what I was riding on the straights...70 ish, but their are lots of turns posted 15,20,25 that I can ride dbl +20 all day without even giving it a second thought, sure there are also some of those turns that only dbl or even less than dbl is appropriate, but I have yet to find myself "in trouble" navigating at dbl +20 on the vast majority of the turns.
I have no illusions of "racetrack" stuff on the street, I have only really gone out once to "prove" something in many years, and it was far too easy. So yeah I ride triple black diamond roads at a brisk pace, and often double +20 through many turns on a route (if conditions and companions merit) it is extremely rare that I break 70-75 on those same routes. Big difference if you are thinking double plus 20 means riding 130 through some turns--that is just fool hardy and begging for a ticket or ambulance ride or worse.
I am pretty sure my odds of severe injury at double +20 on a 15 mph turn are significantly less than me falling down at even 75 in a straight line, and at my "slow" pace (I really like the slow, tight technical turns)If I do fall, I can likely pick up the bike and ride it home mostly unscathed, something that isn't going to happen at 75 plus......FYI, I went 18 years without a crash, ridng at my "break neck" speeds...I never once even thought that since I didn't crash in so long I must be going too slow.
I tried to join your "slowpokes" ride today but you cancelled...so I will show up Thursday just to "prove" my point that I can ride at less than warp speed and still enjoy myself, since it seems you are calling me out??
my .02 FWIW
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Mullholland?
Hey I've been there :) Didn't see a single bike (and only one car) in the 5 minutes I was able to spend there. >:(
(http://www.theschendels.com/mnmsta/?img=motorcycle/_small/Mulholland1_small.jpg)
Double + anything is pushing pretty hard into the high-risk category, and that's what so many (all?) of us can and often do do. At some point we're in the zone in corners we know and love and we're willing to take more risks. Other times the mood isn't right, the corners feel awkward or new or something else is weighing us down, if we aren't smart enough to dial it back, sometimes WAY back, things tend to get messy even if we don't fall.
I love that Brent blew me away on the 250 without knee sliders at DCTC.
Andy
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Thanks for the novel Lloyd :p (some entertainment for work) haha
I just don't get all of these post about people dictating what everybody else does as far as riding goes. I started riding because it was fun and because it was MY choice to go where I wanted and to ride how I wanted. I like my corners (chicken strip free ha) but would rathe just have fun while out with the guys. We can all agree many riders need more training (myself included) but who's to say how they should and shouldn't ride? Everything we do nowadays has law after law after law not to mention these new standards in which all motorcyclists should supposedly abide by. They don't ride like u want them to, kick it down a few gears, move along and go enjoy the roads how you want to, end of story.
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Since it is a "novel" and surely some (JVS obviously)skipped the important parts.....
"Ray--"While I personally enjoy a brisk pace, that's my pace, and shouldn't be construed as what others need to ride to enjoy a ride. I'd love to see more riders riding a variety of paces on rides. I think this would make it easier for folks to fit in and find folks to ride with."
exactly, thus the "ride your own ride" blah blah blah blah blah...omg have we come full circle yet? Is this not what we preach and emphasize and have sought after, holy shit the skies just parted ways, and the sun came out."
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he did note that he'd read it at work, which I assumed was "later".
LOL
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I just don't get all of these post about people dictating what everybody else does as far as riding goes. I started riding because it was fun and because it was MY choice to go where I wanted and to ride how I wanted. I like my corners (chicken strip free ha) but would rathe just have fun while out with the guys. We can all agree many riders need more training (myself included) but who's to say how they should and shouldn't ride? Everything we do nowadays has law after law after law not to mention these new standards in which all motorcyclists should supposedly abide by. They don't ride like u want them to, kick it down a few gears, move along and go enjoy the roads how you want to, end of story.
Great post. Most of the rest of this thread is giving me a headache. I do know one thing for sure, any new lurker here sure isn't going to want to join any ride very soon.
Ride your own ride.
Greg
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You guys just don't get it.
How am I saying you need to ride how I ride?
Did you not read then re read the re-emphasized post......
Here let me copy it yet one more time;
"While I personally enjoy a brisk pace, that's my pace, and shouldn't be construed as what others need to ride to enjoy a ride. I'd love to see more riders riding a variety of paces on rides. I think this would make it easier for folks to fit in and find folks to ride with." quoted from Rays post, but exactly what is being stated and sought after in my opinion!!!
Come on reading one o one........
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Lloyd, it's a 7,856 (exaggeration to make a point) layered "conversation". Every post isn't necessarily directed at you. :)
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Lloyd, Every post isn't necessarily directed at you. :)
wait, what? ;)
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ATTENTION:
an incontinent moose
That is all.
P.S. what happened to Yul?
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I give up....it is worth no further explanation if you haven't gotten it by now.
This just fuckin reminds me of the idiotic posts about members bashing on me because I did not want to share my routes and somehow a few of you came to the conclusion that it was I that was ramming it down your throats that you had to not share or whatthefuckever, when in actuality it was you all ramming it down my throats that what, I had to share and I argued to respect the route makers desires, regardless of if they want to share or not. but no...........forget it it isn't worth my time or aggrevation
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Deep breath dude. You bring a lot to the table. But sometimes you put too much on your plate. ;)
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I watched the board all day today and nothing, then I step away for a few hours and it blows up. I thought several people did a nice job of stating their positions, and of course we don't all agree. Personally I fall closer to Lloyd than GJ (objection: speculation), and I really thought that Brent and Ray shared a profound point: riding with proficient people, not just judging based on speed, is fun (and Lloyd said that, too, in here as well as in the Pace Guide thread).
On the other hand, the "just ride" and "motorcycling is just an answer and does not need further analysis and disection" thoughts don't jive with my personality very well. I mean, sure, some times (maybe?) it's just about getting "out there", but I'm generally more driven or focused than that. I don't even wash my car or cut my lawn without a purpose, why risk getting killed over something that isn't worth thinking about or analyzing (my own riding/mistakes or someone else's) for improvement? I know I can be overbearing (towards myself) and I try very hard not to hold anyone else to my standard. When others have high standards of their own and strive to achieve/improve (in countless different categories/areas), I smile and especially respect that as it "clicks" with me.
Andy
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Damn this just made me lose 30 minutes of my life I can't have back. Troll or no troll, stop this...
but it did make me want to ride.
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Here let me copy it yet one more time;
"While I personally enjoy a brisk pace, that's my pace, and shouldn't be construed as what others need to ride to enjoy a ride. I'd love to see more riders riding a variety of paces on rides. I think this would make it easier for folks to fit in and find folks to ride with." quoted from Rays post, but exactly what is being stated and sought after in my opinion!!!"
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What type of oil do you guys use? What tires stick the best? Sorry, another boring day at work and want to keep this going :D
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I run Amsoil products through out my bike and Road Pilot 2's for good hold in the corners and long lasting tread life about 8,000+ miles per set on my Pure Red ST1100 - I also wear Light Sliver Fieldsheer pants and jacket to be seen and be cool in the hot sun + a White HJC flip up helmet for the same reasons. I wear Shift Racing Fuel Street boots for comfort - They are like high-tops with support and ankle protection and I can hike or walk in them with no problems. Okay back to work ;D
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...another boring day at work and want to keep this going :D
What's your approach for bringing new people into your riding group?
What's your approach for assessing other people's riding?
Do you have people that you avoid riding with for some reason or another?
What's your strategy for joining new groups?
:D :) 8)
a.s.
amsoil 15w-40 marine/diesel
D208's back in the day, have been running a few pairs of PP2CT's, would like to try Metzler's sometime and the PR3's.
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...why risk getting killed over something that isn't worth thinking about or analyzing?
I like that.
I used to get bored when people discussed riding techniques. I always thought, Why not just ride and enjoy it? Until the day about 10 or 12 years ago when I took an Experienced RiderCourse. About a year later, I signed up for Steve Baumen's first class at DCTC. (It snowed that day, but we rode anyway.) Both of those classes changed the way I rode AND how I thought about riding. I think Nick Ianetsch's book was the first one that really made sense to me. Now it's ZARS and RSRS and books and talking and listening, and I think I might be learning more each year now than I ever did before. Course I forget about as much as I learn, so I'm just keeping up for now. ;)
Brent
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...another boring day at work and want to keep this going :D
What's your approach for bringing new people into your riding group?
What's your approach for assessing other people's riding?
Do you have people that you avoid riding with for some reason or another?
What's your strategy for joining new groups?
:D :) 8)
a.s.
amsoil 15w-40 marine/diesel
D208's back in the day, have been running a few pairs of PP2CT's, would like to try Metzler's sometime and the PR3's.
Actually the first question you asked me me think a bit. I've had a few friends that just started riding and have tagged along on rides but this portion could have definitely used some improvement (introducing new riders to group riding, especially with faster paced rides). I think many of us get the connotation that we are fast when we first start riding. This could simply be because we are faster than the cars and semi's next to us or simply due to stupidity but for whatever reason, that first group ride you go on can be a real wake-up call. I've told many of these new riders to hang in the back and just enjoy the ride, but DON'T TRY TO KEEP UP.
Even on our last ride that i led with "the other forum", one of these new riders rode up in the front of the pack and half way through the ride he decided this was going to be an enduro ride and he rode right through someone's front yard (because he panicked in the corner); no crash thankfully. Re-iterating the question, what DO you guys do when introducing new riders to groups?
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soo Brent, Black Hills for dirt riding next season? or Colorado?
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...another boring day at work and want to keep this going :D
What's your approach for bringing new people into your riding group?
What's your approach for assessing other people's riding?
Do you have people that you avoid riding with for some reason or another?
What's your strategy for joining new groups?
:D :) 8)
a.s.
amsoil 15w-40 marine/diesel
D208's back in the day, have been running a few pairs of PP2CT's, would like to try Metzler's sometime and the PR3's.
"What's your approach for bringing new people into your riding group?"
I explain to them our "mission statement" as described here. http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,6.0.html (http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,6.0.html)
"What's your approach for assessing other people's riding?"
I try not to asses other peoples riding skills right away as everyone has different strengths & weaknesses. If anything, I tend to pay attention to how a rider handles their bike at slow, walking speeds as I feel that reflects more of their skill level "in a snap-shot" then how they ride a corner.
"Do you have people that you avoid riding with for some reason or another?"
Sure, I'll never ride in a Harley ride on my sportbike. I'll never ride Sturgis again, ever.
"What's your strategy for joining new groups?"
I don't have a strategy because I'm not looking for a new group. Of the 4 major Twin City Motorcycle forums, MSTA best suits my needs, though I've ridden with a lot of people over the years and most everyone here is on at least one other forum.
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"What's your approach for bringing new people into your riding group?"
I explain to them our "mission statement" as described here. [url]http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,6.0.html[/url] ([url]http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,6.0.html[/url])
"What's your approach for assessing other people's riding?"
I try not to asses other peoples riding skills right away as everyone has different strengths & weaknesses. If anything, I tend to pay attention to how a rider handles their bike at slow, walking speeds as I feel that reflects more of their skill level "in a snap-shot" then how they ride a corner. I do pass judgement somewhat on riders who repeatedly crash over a short period of time without taking steps to fix whatever is going wrong.
"Do you have people that you avoid riding with for some reason or another?"
Sure, I'll never ride in a Harley ride on my sportbike. I'll never ride Sturgis again, ever.
"What's your strategy for joining new groups?"
I don't have a strategy because I'm not looking for a new group. Of the 4 major Twin City Motorcycle forums, MSTA best suits my needs, though I've ridden with a lot of people over the years and most everyone here is on at least one other forum.
Well thought-out responses, thanks. What about the last one though, what if you were to join a ride I lead with a group of my friends that you didn't know? I'm kinda saying "think small", not forums, but a group of riders you haven't already ridden with and to whom you are an unknown. People from work, in-laws, in a new group at a big ride/national event, friends of friends... things like that.
a.s.
p.s. I kinda put together my thoughts on some of these in the Pace Guide thread.
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Actually the first question you asked me me think a bit. I've had a few friends that just started riding and have tagged along on rides but this portion could have definitely used some improvement (introducing new riders to group riding, especially with faster paced rides). I think many of us get the connotation that we are fast when we first start riding. This could simply be because we are faster than the cars and semi's next to us or simply due to stupidity but for whatever reason, that first group ride you go on can be a real wake-up call. I've told many of these new riders to hang in the back and just enjoy the ride, but DON'T TRY TO KEEP UP.
Even on our last ride that i led with "the other forum", one of these new riders rode up in the front of the pack and half way through the ride he decided this was going to be an enduro ride and he rode right through someone's front yard (because he panicked in the corner); no crash thankfully. Re-iterating the question, what DO you guys do when introducing new riders to groups?
That's cool, and a good start, for sure. New riders up front is good, having them lead is considered ideal in some circles (perhaps the official PACE article, I don't recall).
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To be honest, unless I've ridden with you before and new the framework of how you set up a ride, I wouldn't go. That's not a slight against you, it's just that as I get older I know that sunny Sundays (pun intended) are fewer and more precious and I'm not going to go riding with a new group unless I know they conduct their ride the way I like to ride.
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To be honest, unless I've ridden with you before and new the framework of how you set up a ride, I wouldn't go. That's not a slight against you, it's just that as I get older I know that sunny Sundays (pun intended) are fewer and more precious and I'm not going to go riding with a new group unless I know they conduct their ride the way I like to ride.
No offense taken of course, that's a good stance to have if you can control it.
a.s.
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Feel free to criticize but wouldn't it be safer for new riders to be in the back of the group where the pace is generally slower?
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IMO-NO
the people in the back are playing catch up far too often and often are riding faster than the people in the front.
If they ( less skilled) are in the front they dictate the pace and the better riders can actually observe if they start looking erratic or "beyond their limits" and then they(more skilled riders) are good enough to pass and whooo the pace down, before some off road excursion does.
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Feel free to criticize but wouldn't it be safer for new riders to be in the back of the group where the pace is generally slower?
I know I've heard that suggestion (to put new riders in the front) before, but I haven't seen it practiced much. It seems like it would be a good idea. It's easier to watch newer riders when they're riding near the front of the pack than if they're at the rear. I've been on group rides where I brought up the rear to watch the stragglers. I've seen some newer riders at the back of the pack do some crazy stuff trying to keep up with the faster riders.
Another reason to put new riders near the front: If someone riding at the rear of the pack has trouble and/or needs help, it takes longer to communicate that fact to everyone who's been riding ahead of them.
Still, on most of the groups ride I've ridden, the faster riders are at the front. It doesn't really matter as long as the riders at the front don't ride for hours without checking on the others.
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Feel free to criticize but wouldn't it be safer for new riders to be in the back of the group where the pace is generally slower?
I know I've heard that suggestion before, but I haven't seen it practiced much. It's easier to watch newer riders when they're riding near the front of the pack than if they're at the rear. I've been on group rides where I brought up the rear to watch the stragglers. I've seen some newer riders do some crazy stuff trying to keep up with the faster riders.
Another reason to put new riders near the front: If someone riding at the rear of the pack has trouble and/or needs help, it takes longer to communicate that fact to everyone who's been riding ahead of them.
But this analogy falls flat when you apply it to any other sport or group activity where different skill levels are present.
How many times would a group of advanced skiers go down a hill behind less advanced skiers? Not many times ....
How many times would advanced scuba divers go diving with less advanced scuba divers? Not many times ....
How many times would Ben want to play ping-pong with me (hehe) when he consistently beats me 15-3? Not many times ....
It's not a bad thing (nor does it "look down" on other participants) to want to participate in a sport or skilled activity with participants of similar skill levels.
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soo Brent, Black Hills for dirt riding next season? or Colorado?
Actually, I like northern Minnesota better than the Black Hills, but Colorado is really tempting.
Nice little diversion.
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Feel free to criticize but wouldn't it be safer for new riders to be in the back of the group where the pace is generally slower?
I know I've heard that suggestion before, but I haven't seen it practiced much. It's easier to watch newer riders when they're riding near the front of the pack than if they're at the rear. I've been on group rides where I brought up the rear to watch the stragglers. I've seen some newer riders do some crazy stuff trying to keep up with the faster riders.
Another reason to put new riders near the front: If someone riding at the rear of the pack has trouble and/or needs help, it takes longer to communicate that fact to everyone who's been riding ahead of them.
But this analogy falls flat when you apply it to any other sport or group activity where different skill levels are present.
How many times would a group of advanced skiers go down a hill behind less advanced skiers? Not many times ....
How many times would advanced scuba divers go diving with less advanced scuba divers? Not many times ....
How many times would Ben want to play ping-pong with me (hehe) when he consistently beats me 15-3? Not many times ....
It's not a bad thing (nor does it "look down" on other participants) to want to participate in a sport or skilled activity with participants of similar skill levels.
"It's not a bad thing (nor does it "look down" on other participants) to want to participate in a sport or skilled activity with participants of similar skill levels. "
Just so I am not misunderstanding.
This is your point here, your argument in this posting?
Because if so, remember the snip of Rays post I quoted like 5 times and the whole parting of the clouds and the sun shining thing...Well hot damn the clouds have all but dissapated now and the sky is looking mighty blue. By Joe I think it is finally coming to light, only 5 pages later......(although I would have phrased it more tactfully...lol)
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I was just thinking in the sense that most group rides put fast riders in front and slow riders in back. The new rider would greatly benefit from seeing bikes enter the corner before them making it easier to judge how fast to hit the corner (not to mention improve reaction time in the rear if they see multiple bikes hitting the brakes before something comes up)
I do like using the scala riders for helping teach new riders. It makes it 100 times easier to tell them how they should change their body position and u can tell them what to look out for on certain roads.
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With respect to bringing new people into the group, the intent is to do it entirely by word of mouth or by people who pay attention, noticing MSTA members on other rides and deciding they like to try to ride more with them. Unlike most other forums, we are not interested in being the "largest" or "best", we'd just like to be a group of folks who trust each other to be responsible proficient riders so if you want to go on a ride you can post it on the forum or find one on the forum and expect that the folks who show up will ride responsibly and proficiently on a twisty route of several hundred miles.
New rider, as in new to riding? We used to encourage these folks to join our rides. Personally I now discourage these people unless I'm personally willing to mentor them. It has become clear over time that our rides due to length and type of route are challenging to begin with, and we are not generally prepared to support new riders. If a new rider has a buddy or a group of folks who want to bring them to a ride and mentor them, good deal, but a new rider who just shows up to a ride is a risk. I always don't want to be in anyway responsible for someone having an accident, and unfortunately new riders have been overly prone to having accidents on our rides. New riders on a ride, require special handling, which we aren't prepared to provide.
New rider to the group? Just read the ride guidelines and if you have questions speak with the other folks who show up for the ride or the ride organizer. Ideally every group would be run with a leader and sweeper to help allay any fears a new rider to the group might have, but as people who show up for rides are predominantly there to ride not take care of other riders, having a sweeper and leader is not assured.
Sorting riders by pace order before a group starts riding? No thanks. Much easier to just get on the road and let the people who want to ride faster migrate forward in the group and the people who want to ride slower migrate backwards to the degree necessary. When people are called upon to articulate how competently they ride, most people overstate their competency in my experience. The people who self identify as being fast riders are the people I generally expect to crash. Personally if asked, I pretty much always say I'm slow. I know people who are much better and faster riders than me and saying you're slow and ensures that you will never feel you have to prove anything.
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^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually. For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.
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I think the new riders in front thing can be both new to riding and new to the group. Both types benefit from not being asked to perform a single thing they are unwilling to decide to do for themselves (i.e. set your own straightaway speed, braking markers, turn in points and corner speeds). Riding in front eliminates peer pressure, although I'm sure it could / does increase performance anxiety. In my questions I was focused on experienced (objection: ambiguous) riders new to any particular group.
Established groups do tend to filter fast to the front and slow to the rear, which I don't have any problem with, seems logical and safer than the reverse. I am going to say that having some idea of how to judge someone's skills is important, and classifying people is key to maintaining safety and personal comfort. Judging doesn't have to mean judgemental, and if people would just relax and appreciate the effort of the messenger when provided an obvious enough reason to receive constructive criticism, well-delivered or not, the world would be a better place.
I think we're seeing the reemergence of the "Ride your own ride" tag line; it's got to be the most responsible way, if not the absolute safest.
Sorting riders by pace order before a group starts riding? No thanks. Much easier to just get on the road and let the people who want to ride faster migrate forward in the group and the people who want to ride slower migrate backwards to the degree necessary. When people are called upon to articulate how competently they ride, most people overstate their competency in my experience. The people who self identify as being fast riders are the people I generally expect to crash. Personally if asked, I pretty much always say I'm slow. I know people who are much better and faster riders than me and saying you're slow and ensures that you will never feel you have to prove anything.
Ray, I like your idea of stating that you're pretty slow if asked. That's exactly the way I approach any ride with an unknown group, whether asked or not. I don't set out to be in front and I filter to the back until I know what to expect. Since I don't ride regularly enough with most groups I tend to be the back a lot. In fact, TK and I were bringing up the tail on the Cannon Falls ride-out, and while Lloyd was leading and I think said he never broke 100 ... ah, let's just say this was a perfect example of the "catch up" "problem" (trust me, we didn't consider it a problem) that can hinder new riders.
New rider to the group? Just read the ride guidelines and if you have questions speak with the other folks who show up for the ride or the ride organizer. Ideally every group would be run with a leader and sweeper to help allay any fears a new rider to the group might have, but as people who show up for rides are predominantly there to ride not take care of other riders, having a sweeper and leader is not assured.
I'll admit when I joined I was fearful that I wouldn't be able/want to keep up with you guys. I did a bunch of reading and reached out to a couple people privately to get a sense for some of the typical riders and routine speeds. The thoughtful responses were very helpful and gave me a sense that I would fit in. I actually led the first ride I ever did with mn-msta (going back to my first point in this post), kind of an interview I suppose you might say, and this gave me the perfect chance to ride my own ride (although I'll also admit I went a smidge faster (maybe 5mph?) than my true baseline, no doubt trying to impress those behind me, hey what can I say, I'm human).
Andy
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"In fact, TK and I were bringing up the tail on the Cannon Falls ride-out, and while Lloyd was leading and I think said he never broke 100 ... ah, let's just say this was a perfect example of the "catch up" "problem" (trust me, we didn't consider it a problem) that can hinder new riders."
You are talking about 11 west of that first gas stop. Nothing but big sweepers, one of those kinds of roads where I hate riding, but that was an all MN ride...LOL (and no I never approached 100, even on those huge sweepers where triple digits would be extremly easy to run and maintain.)
New riders to the front only works if the "veteran" riders are willing to follow at a pace they don't necessarily want to run and are also willing and able to "teach" if they feel the need (becasue there no doubt would be the need). While I have done several of these rides, that is not the way I run my rides for when I am out to have a fun, enjoyable, relaxing, refreshing day.
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^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually. For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.
Sounds to me like you were just following and hoping and assuming Ray would lead you through. Not actually taking accountability for yourself and "riding your own ride"......Which is what we continually preach not to do.
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New riders to the front only works if the "veteran" riders are willing to follow at a pace they don't necessarily want to run and are also willing and able to "teach" if they feel the need (becasue there no doubt would be the need). While I have done several of these rides, that is not the way I run my rides for when I am out to have a fun, enjoyable, relaxing, refreshing day.
This is absolutely true, and I feel the same way about it. People that bring "new to the group" people to a ride run by someone else are taking a pretty big chance. If there is any question about their skills (objection: not politically correct), it would be better, at least in my mind to have the "in" person organize a ride, advertised as a getting to know a new person ride (or something slightly more subtle, like a new person getting to know us ride) and then people looking to not ride quite as fast or as far or with as few stops as others can take part and have a great time.
Or maybe the new guy and the friend can take chunks out of the main route (to shorten it up and take the edge off if Lloyd put it together for sure :)) and take off on their own, meeting up at the gas/food stops, or the 2nd half or whatever etc. Kind of a hybrid setup.
I read posts from quite a few people on here that would be willing to help with this so the new guy and the friend had at least one other person along, which would be really nice and probaby very enjoyable.
a.s.
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^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually. For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.
Sounds to me like you were just following and hoping and assuming Ray would lead you through. Not actually taking accountability for yourself and "riding your own ride"......Which is what we continually preach not to do.
But it does sound like it worked out pretty well, hopefully they've moved past that point in their relationship :)
Off to bed for me, last night got late. Hopefully many more honest, soul-baring and stimulating or controversial opinions will be offered for discussion :D
a.s.
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I like how the bickering and arguing on this forum actually leads to conclusions. We actually learn something from all the e-fighting here (in comparison to that other forum ;) ) haha.
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^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually. For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.
Sounds to me like you were just following and hoping and assuming Ray would lead you through. Not actually taking accountability for yourself and "riding your own ride"......Which is what we continually preach not to do.
You're too quick to assume that. What I am saying is it is nice to follow someone who is experienced on a particular road when at a pace that I am also comfortable with. Being human, would I have pushed myself too hard if I was in a lead position? I try not to do that, but I prefer to follow until I know a road well by memory.
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New riders to the front only works if the "veteran" riders are willing to follow at a pace they don't necessarily want to run and are also willing and able to "teach" if they feel the need (becasue there no doubt would be the need).
Also, new riders will most likely feel uncomfortable being out in front, knowing there are seasoned riders behind them. I've rattled many new riders while I rode sweep over the years. I notice they become preoccupied with constantly checking their mirrors or their blind spot, even though I've made it more than clear that I am giving them plenty of room to their rear.
I agree with Ray that a 500 miler to Slimey Crud (for example) is not appropriate for new or inexperienced riders. Around six years ago, I rode sweep and pulled three new riders out of the ditch, and didn't even make it to Leland (the third rider wrecked out so I waited with him for his Dad to bring the truck down.) All three felt pressured to not look slow (didn't ride their own ride) and were preoccupied with keeping a rider in view (did not use the route sheet.)
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^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually. For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.
Sounds to me like you were just following and hoping and assuming Ray would lead you through. Not actually taking accountability for yourself and "riding your own ride"......Which is what we continually preach not to do.
You're too quick to assume that. What I am saying is it is nice to follow someone who is experienced on a particular road when at a pace that I am also comfortable with. Being human, would I have pushed myself too hard if I was in a lead position? I try not to do that, but I prefer to follow until I know a road well by memory.
I know how "quick" Ray is, and since you were a first time to the roads following him at his pace. That pace was way over your head. I don't care if you been riding 13 years. There is riding and then there is riding. I know people that have ridden 40+ years that dont even understand braking or countersteering or so many other things, yet since they been riding forever they assume they are "good" riders.
I am not saying that is you, but a new road should be proceeded on with some trepedation and serious caution, regardless if you have someone "leading" you through that "knows" the road or not
Look I am not bashing on you in particular ( I am bashing on a percieved notion, that one can follow someone far more experienced on those roads and likely a far better rider just because they are "leading"), I am just making a point-you just happen to put up the post to prove it on.
Believe me it is no assumption on my part, it is fact.
"Also, new riders will most likely feel uncomfortable being out in front, knowing there are seasoned riders behind them. "
yes that has been my experience. Even on my Introductory rides, they get all ants in the pants nervous. I am not sure if it is becasue it is me behind them or just becasue they know they are being watched??
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Today we seem to have a few "groups" within the group---and I am all for that ! But the "black diamond" riders still are the majority of rides and clearly not for everyone. Especially not for the underskilled and over confident.
I too think it’s nice to see different “groups” of riders. I feel I fit in with more than one group depending on how I’m feeling & riding on any given ride. The best part is that even the “black diamond” riders are nice enough to allow those of us that are slower to attend their rides for the most part.
.... Ray has said that he started the original list to find people to ride with. I'm pretty sure he's more interested in fast, safe, experienced riders on sporty bikes who want to ride hundreds of miles of twisty roads per day, as opposed to relatively slow, inexperienced, slow cruiser riders who want to spend as much time stopped as riding.
As long a people are proficient and able to self navigate off a route sheet and take care of themselves on a ride, the more the merrier.
While I personally enjoy a brisk pace, that's my pace, and shouldn't be construed as what others need to ride to enjoy a ride. I'd love to see more riders riding a variety of paces on rides. I think this would make it easier for folks to fit in and find folks to ride with.
Exactly & well put Ray. I know since starting to go on MSTA rides I've found more people that I like to ride with & have found people I never want to see in front of me on a ride. Fortunately, the later type are people that have come over here from "other" forums. Overall I've had more fun riding with this group the past two season than any season before.
At some point we're in the zone in corners we know and love and we're willing to take more risks. Other times the mood isn't right, the corners feel awkward or new or something else is weighing us down, if we aren't smart enough to dial it back, sometimes WAY back, things tend to get messy even if we don't fall.
I know I have experienced some of this. When I had my worst crash, all day I had two people ass packing me. Rather than recognize the indicators & make adjustments, I ended up losing my focus in a corner & went down. Lesson learned the hard way.
They don't ride like u want them to, kick it down a few gears, move along and go enjoy the roads how you want to, end of story.
That’s always an option…especially if you have a route sheet & can self-navigate. I’ve done that many times even when by myself & other groups of bikes have held me up.
Damn this just made me lose 30 minutes of my life I can't have back. Troll or no troll, stop this...
but it did make me want to ride.
That’s exactly what we should all be thinking….it kept us entertained but overall gave us some insight on our group as a whole. I’ve been on other forums & this one is by far my favorite. I would have no problem riding with almost all of you & have appreciated all that many of you have taught me about riding, leading rides, & motorcycling in general.
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conclusion 1 - Most new (to spirited group rides) riders are nervous and trying to avoid looking bad or getting lost and therefore would benefit from a "sponsor" to help them successfully navigate their first few MNSTA rides. NO, I am not volunteering.
conclusion 2 - New group ride riders patently do not understand the "Ride your own ride" comment. I see this at the ZARS events too. Somehow, we need to come up with something that makes people understand what their obligation to the group is. Things like not crashing, not interfering with other's enjoyment of thier ride, not stressing themselves, not worrying about getting lost, etc.
Conclusion 3 - MNSTA threads seem to often require multiple restatements of facts and talking people down. Perhaps if you want new riders to join (we are all getting older and greyer!) there could be a stickied "welcome to riding with MNSTA - what to expect on our group rides" thread which is kept factual and positive.
Best of luck, sorry that it has been MANY years since I have ridden with the group.
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conclusion 2 - New group ride riders patently do not understand the "Ride your own ride" comment. I see this at the ZARS events too.
Seems pretty normal. A person has no idea where his limits are until he begins to approach them. Inexperienced riders don't know what it feels like to be near the limit of comfort or traction or anything else. EVERYTHING feels like it's near the limit to a new rider. Add the noise and chatter of a bunch of other bikes and strangers, and a newish rider goes on overload.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
OK, that's a generalization, and it seems to say that people have to crash to understand their limits, but there are things we can do to mitigate the consequences of their bad judgment. A newish rider comes into the turn a little too fast, but then he remembers what someone told him at the last break: "Look where you wanna go!" or "Press the inside grip!" He doesn't ride off into the ditch, and he's just gained some valuable experience.
Somehow, we need to come up with something that makes people understand what their obligation to the group is. Things like not crashing, not interfering with other's enjoyment of thier ride, not stressing themselves, not worrying about getting lost, etc.
What I've usually tried to do on my rides (which have been scarce lately) is to assure everyone that they're not going to be left behind. The best way to do this, IMO, is to NOT roll on the throttle at the beginning of a straight section, but instead slow down. I'll sometimes ride under 50 mph until I can see everyone or almost everyone. The second best way to do this, IMO, is to wait at EVERY turn until seeing everyone. Some people don't want to ride this way, but I've seen that lots of my friends are OK with it, as long as they can ride at their own pace most of the day.
The thing that most people might not realize is that even the slowest rider only takes a couple more minutes to get through a challenging section of road than the fastest rider. When you're a one of the slower riders, riding for 10 minutes without seeing a bike ahead of you makes you feel like you're way, way behind, but when you're the lead guy and you wait a minute or two for the slowest rider, it doesn't seem that long at all.
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can I had conclusions, 4-1,000,000
okay I will only add the one---and it is one of the conclusions I have had since this new forum layout and all the "everyone is welcome, come join" crap
Conclusion 4---MN-msta rides are not for everyone and we need to stop trying to be so damn politically correct and want everyone to join ( some, likley very many just shouldn't be on these rides or even on this forum.....I kicked 2 away on one of my introduction rides-they both were boneheads and both crashed to boot) We need to be willing to tell them the hard truth, you;
a) aren't welcome
b) aren't good enough (maybe they can't control their ego, or really are that bad, or needy or whatever)
c) Dont participate or add any value to the forum or the rides, goodbye
d) or whatever the scenario is
Not everyone belongs on this forum, hell about 200+ "members" of the forum aren't even really members-they add nothing and don't show up for rides ever.....Members should contribute to both the forum and the rides. Whether it is their ride, or joining a ride doesn't matter to me....Names to faces and being "known" and contributing in a positive way.
I remember when I knew ever single name and had ridden with just about everyone on the yahoo format, now you have posters who have never even attempted to join anything-they just post their bullshit to post. (many are just drama seekers that should just stay on those other forums where their crap is appreciated and expected)
Okay maybe that is more than just Conclusion 4)
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all I'd like to say is that I agree with Brent. And as one of the slower riders, I appreciate
what he said. I'm comfortable with being a slower rider, and that doesn't equate to being
less experienced, that's just my comfort level and pace. That's a huge reason why I choose
not to do a lot of group rides. There's a few faster paced riders that I won't ride with because I
always feel like they're silently wishing I'd ride faster, it shows on their face and their body language.
And then there's a few faster paced riders (Vince, Martin, Jon P), that I enjoy riding with, and never make
me feel like they're waiting for me to hurry up.
I also prefer to ride in the back of any group, I like having a bit more personal space. Always have.
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"it is one of the conclusions I have had"
hey thanks for pointing out the obvious-------I already made that distinction
But it is not only myself who feels this way-do you want to look at my pm inbox?
Besides there is nothing about that post that is inflammatory or insulting-it is simply fact.
It is no different than saying that I don't belong on ZG or TA, so bite me. Nice dletion there Greg---I'll let mine ride.
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can I had conclusions, 4-1,000,000
okay I will only add the one---and it is one of the conclusions I have had since this new forum layout and all the "everyone is welcome, come join" crap
Conclusion 4---MN-msta rides are not for everyone and we need to stop trying to be so damn politically correct and want everyone to join ( some, likley very many just shouldn't be on these rides or even on this forum.....I kicked 2 away on one of my introduction rides-they both were boneheads and both crashed to boot) We need to be willing to tell them the hard truth, you;
a) aren't welcome
b) aren't good enough (maybe they can't control their ego, or really are that bad, or needy or whatever)
c) Dont participate or add any value to the forum or the rides, goodbye
d) or whatever the scenario is
Not everyone belongs on this forum, hell about 200+ "members" of the forum aren't even really members-they add nothing and don't show up for rides ever.....Members should contribute to both the forum and the rides. Whether it is their ride, or joining a ride doesn't matter to me....Names to faces and being "known" and contributing in a positive way.
I remember when I knew ever single name and had ridden with just about everyone on the yahoo format, now you have posters who have never even attempted to join anything-they just post their bullshit to post. (many are just drama seekers that should just stay on those other forums where their crap is appreciated and expected)
Okay maybe that is more than just Conclusion 4)
In before the edit. Once again, Lloyd speaks only for himself.
*I will agree though (and I've made this thought known multiple times) that I as well put very little merit in someones post about how rides should be run when I rarely if ever see them put together a ride*
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In before the edit. Once again, Lloyd speaks only for himself.
Of course. Although I agree with what he says much of the time, and even when I don't agree (with Lloyd or anyone else for that matter) I appreciate the dialog, civil discourse I believe was how Yul put it.
a.s.
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Once again, Lloyd speaks only for himself.
Of course, and I suppose I should have added that to my own post. I would like to be relatively inclusive, but I should probably make it clear that I don't think it's wrong to be selective.
*I will agree though (and I've made this thought known multiple times) that I as well put very little merit in someones post about how rides should be run when I rarely if ever see them put together a ride*
I don't see how the number of rides that person organizes is relevant to whether that person has good ideas about how a group ride should be run. Lots of people who've never organized a group ride have made useful suggestions to me about what makes a ride fun for them.
The recommendation to put new riders up front probably came from someone who organized lots of rides, but that particular suggestion hasn't worked well for me so far.
Brent
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Once again, Lloyd speaks only for himself.
Of course, and I suppose I should have added that to my own post. I would like to be relatively inclusive, but I should probably make it clear that I don't think it's wrong to be selective.
*I will agree though (and I've made this thought known multiple times) that I as well put very little merit in someones post about how rides should be run when I rarely if ever see them put together a ride*
I don't see how the number of rides that person organizes is relevant to whether that person has good ideas about how a group ride should be run. Lots of people who've never organized a group ride have made useful suggestions to me about what makes a ride fun for them.
The recommendation to put new riders up front probably came from someone who organized lots of rides, but that particular suggestion hasn't worked well for me so far.
Brent
Agreed. Useful suggestions are terrific and appreciated. I should have been more succinct and said that in the past (meaning years ago) there would often be finger-pointing posts (not useful suggestions) after a ride complaining about this or that. I'm not singling out any specific post in this thread.
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"Riding safely" now tops the charts on the top 10 posted on threads...lol
snip again--"years ago) there would often be finger-pointing posts (not useful suggestions) after a ride complaining about this or that. "
Now they just come in the form of a text message, a pm or an email or they spread it via word of mouth and let the rumor mill get it back to you, or atleast that is what I saw a few times last season.
Yes useful suggestions is a much better approach, and if they are based on real experience within the group even better. IMO
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"Riding safely" now tops the charts on the top 10 posted on threads...lol
With that, Yul can now look at his accomplishment with satisfaction. Too bad he only wanted to toss the grenade, and not be part of the dialog.
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Agreed. Useful suggestions are terrific and appreciated. I should have been more succinct and said that in the past (meaning years ago) there would often be finger-pointing posts (not useful suggestions) after a ride complaining about this or that. I'm not singling out any specific post in this thread.
This is more what's at the root of the ride your own ride mentality, not trying to make rides open and available to anyone who wants to come. I think it's an important distinction. If someone is dangerous or disrespectful, we are not going to wash our hands of them and just say ride your own ride. They won't be welcome. **Cue comments about how disrespectful and dangerous Jared is.**
I've been riding MSTA/MN-Sportbike rides for 6 seasons. This makes me a pup compared to others who have been here since before the interwebz. When I started riding with this group of riders, I also rode with a buddy from HS/College and on rides from a bunch of other groups/forums (including the usual suspects). After a season, I realized that I liked the MSTA rides better for a variety of reasons and stuck over here. I look back at my first season riding and find it completely absurd and completely irresponsible that I was willing to show up to rides with people I didn't know well and who were pretty unpredictable, but I was younger, dumber, and completely inexperienced.
I can definitely identify with Lloyd's sentiment around closing down the forum and rides to "outsiders" as I recognize that it introduces many who are not and will not ever be a good fit for MN-MSTA. As a former outsider, however, I think it would be a shame. I didn't know anyone from this group before I showed up for my first ride and probably wouldn't have found it unless it was "open". I don't have a problem riding with someone who is new to the group as long as 1) They are not a tool and 2) They don't endanger me or others. I know I'm probably opening a whole other can of worms around what "endanger" means in this context...
This is now the most replied to thread since this incarnation of the forum. That makes me both happy and sad at the same time.
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As a former outsider, however, I think it would be a shame. I didn't know anyone from this group before I showed up for my first ride and probably wouldn't have found it unless it was "open". I don't have a problem riding with someone who is new to the group as long as 1) They are not a tool and 2) They don't endanger me or others. I know I'm probably opening a whole other can of worms around what "endanger" means in this context...
This is now the most replied to thread since this incarnation of the forum. That makes me both happy and sad at the same time.
That is pretty much my story, somebody mentioned that I check out the Sport-Touring site when I was 1st Thursday, - they actually meant sport-touring.com I believe, but I stumbled here, happened to show up at the first 'Last Wednesday' gathering - met a few people, then I've gone on to ride on a few group rides this year. I have had a great time and enjoyed everyone I've ridden with. It's easy enough to PM a half dozen people for personal group rides, so the options are out there to stay inclusive with who you ride with.
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"I can definitely identify with Lloyd's sentiment around closing down the forum and rides to "outsiders" as I recognize that it introduces many who are not and will not ever be a good fit for MN-MSTA. "
Is that what I said?
I guess I 'll have to go back re-read (but I do like the forum viewed to logged in members only-perhaps that was the context)
I am all for individuals bringing people that they already know will likely (high probablity) be a "good fit".
I am very much against trolling for whatever bites the line, and then a real em in and we'll see approach. Which is how I percieve the last 2+ seasons have gone.
Also, yes those that "don't fit", "don't contribute" then why are they here? I mean really why are about 200 "members" in name only actually on this forum? For the most part they don't post, don't join rides, don't contribute. Sure there will be "new" members who don't fit on occassion and they will go away or pushed away, sure without a broad sweep net you may miss a few that would be a "good fit", but When I view the memebers list, it is what about 65 that post , perhaps 40 of those that contribute and ride-the rest are just a name....
It would be one thing if you wanted a huge forum name database so you could brag about how your forum is the biggest, or you were trying to sell ad space or something with your ego and/or pocketbook in mind like the other forums do--it is another when it appears all anyone (the contributors) on this forum wants to do is ride with similarly skilled "adult" riding friends, at what is percieved by some as "fast" and for still others at a more "moderate" pace---I still say the two are only a couple mph's apart, I have been on them both regularly.
Just as dinstinction-When I hear "fast" - that equates to someone braking hard and accelerating hard and likely running triple digit speeds. I have only seen that a scant few times on rides with this forum
When I hear John or Paul talk about how slow or moderate they ride. I laugh, I have ridden with both and it is damn near the same pace, minus only a couple miles per hour and maybe 5-10 mph in the more challenging turns-and they both rider faster in the straights than I typically do...stop to stop-the total time would be about the same, perhaps they would even get their first, and Paul has.
Anyways.........
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"Riding safely" now tops the charts on the top 10 posted on threads...lol
I know I am waiting for the movie, this thing is long....
With that, Yul can now look at his accomplishment with satisfaction. Too bad he only wanted to toss the grenade, and not be part of the dialog.
I was curious so I look he has not been on since the 23rd.
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I am here; heavy with disappointment.
I am wrong. I thought that this site was different from the others. It is not. It is the same dynamic as the others... posturing, ridicule, and blind "cult-like" loyalty to the organization.
I will continue just to read and will no longer participate as I do with other message boards.
And that is fine. But maybe you will not be so harsh with your judgments of the other sites knowing that you all are susceptible to the same collapse of social graces as the others.
You have all participated and have behaved just as poorly as the other forums. And again, that is okay... I just hope you all learn something from this. Even old men can change and perhaps at that time I can re-engage in civil dialogue.
Enjoy yourselves and be safe. :)
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Yul, welcome back to the discussion.
I mean no ill will, but if I read between the lines, your goal in dropping in was to point out how we are the same as other forums? If my read is accurate, I'm glad you were able to get what you needed and stimulate some discussion here.
I still don't understand why you are reluctant to introduce yourself - as is common in "civil dialog". I don't carry brass knuckles or pick fights with other riders (nor do the other MNSTA riders I know).
PS As one of the "old men" - you'll have to come up with a much better exiting insult.
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My intent of my last post was to reveal the hypocrisy and to hope that others will take moment to be introspective. Nothing more.
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I still don't understand why you are reluctant to introduce yourself - as is common in "civil dialog".
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I am here; heavy with disappointment.
I am wrong. I thought that this site was different from the others. It is not. It is the same dynamic as the others... posturing, ridicule, and blind "cult-like" loyalty to the organization.
I will continue just to read and will no longer participate as I do with other message boards.
And that is fine. But maybe you will not be so harsh with your judgments of the other sites knowing that you all are susceptible to the same collapse of social graces as the others.
You have all participated and have behaved just as poorly as the other forums. And again, that is okay... I just hope you all learn something from this. Even old men can change and perhaps at that time I can re-engage in civil dialogue.
Enjoy yourselves and be safe. :)
That has to be some sort of joke or psychology class experiment or something. I know of no other interaction initiated and "ended" by any sort of person proclaiming multiple times to be all about the civil discourse without a single affirmation of any kind to any one of the participants or any meaningful contribution by the initiator. And on top of that you somehow threaten to participate less?
Whoop-de-doo, you what, wanted to rile us up and see how introspective we could be? You did, we did, and you determined that our introspection didn't meet your criteria? Good work. The rest of us know more about each other than before, and some of the key points of riding safely have been discussed from various perspectives. People's personalities showed and all we get is a ridiculous it's the "same dynamic as the others... posturing, ridicule, and blind "cult-like" loyalty to the organization" and "You have all participated and have behaved just as poorly as the other forums"? Those statements, directed at everyone (!?!?), are as asinine as any opinion ever made public.
a.s.
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You have all participated and have behaved just as poorly as the other forums.
Hmm, I thought it was a great discussion. What is the criteria for "poorly as other forums"? Very few forums actually take the time to discuss the various aspects of group riding dynamics and allow all sorts of points of view.
I still think it's one big Zebco. But the outcome wound up being very worthwhile.
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Here is safety thoughts----all 3 of these tires are from forum members bikes and they are all active members as well, fwiw
Tire a)
left side just under 1/32" to the wear bar......center 2+/32" to the wear bar...right side on the wear bar------
Tire b)
it is pretty self explanatory, it should have been removed more 1000 miles ago. What is your life worth kind of scenario, IMO
Tire c)
well it is under 1/32" to the wear bar in the center (at the cupped areas actually at the wear bar), while both sides have more than 3/32"
Okay so mind you "sport" front tires typically come with 4/32" of tread depth above the wear bar
Also keep in mind the wear bar is the legal limit of what you can ride on at 1/32"
Finally, since this is a safety thread.
I want to know what any of you think of these 3 tires in general.
ie...would you ride it that, is it taken off too soon, do you think it is "safe", riding styles etc....
Tire A specifically. It has over half the tread depth left in the center.
Would you have kept riding on it ?(if you were the person who wore out the edges faster than the center)---if so for how long, I mean how much more wear, not how many more miles.
Tire B specifically. Well besides its obvious lack of any tread whatsoever, and the "ridge" in the "just barely leaned" area. What on earth would you presume to think this person was thinking continueing to ride on this all the way to this point?
Would you have allowed them on a ride you were at, as the organizer or not?
How would you approach your conversation with this person?
Tire C specifically. Well it does have minimal tread, but is cupped pretty bad.
Would you make any suggestions to a person showing up to a ride with this tire?
What do you think caused this condition?
If it was your bike, would you continue to ride on it?
Would you suggest they not join the ride?
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I've got some thoughts, and some of my tires in the garage -- I think mine are worse than A and C (in some ways, cupping and center tread depth) but not B. I'll see if I can get some pics.
I don't know that I'd send someone home on a tire like B, but especially if I were the organizer I'd be pretty clear that there was a huge risk in riding it and people should stay away, maybe make them ride sweep, get emergency contact info, things like that. Not as bad as not having front brakes, but worse than not having rear brakes maybe. Tire B going flat at a bad time would have the distinct possibility of really ruining a lot of people's days (i.e. killing a rider other than the owner of the tire). You know what's interesting, any flat tire in a tightly packed group could do that. I'm going to say that Tire B was more likely to go, but made-up statistics don't mean crap when your number's called.
I'll admit I wasn't man enough to send a guy packing when he showed up without a helmet. It was a lower-level small group and he was a friend of a friend. We rode probably 200 miles of pretty standard twisties, the MN side down to Wabasha, a bit of Alphabet soup back towards the cities.
a.s.
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Just so as to not clutter up that beautiful posting of examples I so carefully posted.......
2 of these members I have not ever ridden with, and based on these tires pictures- I doubt I ever will.
There Everyone knows my perspective, and it may not be very PC, But I definately would not have allowed them on any ride I organized.....and I would have made certain to not be in the group if they did join someone elses ride, after many a harsch word for them.
But I am a Hit them on the head with a hammer kind of person.
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So let me get this right, you come start a conversation on the 23rd and for 5 days have absolutely nothing to say or contribute while other members of the forum discuss the topic at length. Then you come on today not to finally grace us with your wisdom or insights but to wag your finger at how the conversation went and to inform us that you will be taking your ball and going home? Does that sum it up pretty well?
Bye.
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I am here; heavy with disappointment.
I am wrong. I thought that this site was different from the others. It is not. It is the same dynamic as the others... posturing, ridicule, and blind "cult-like" loyalty to the organization.
I will continue just to read and will no longer participate as I do with other message boards.
And that is fine. But maybe you will not be so harsh with your judgments of the other sites knowing that you all are susceptible to the same collapse of social graces as the others.
You have all participated and have behaved just as poorly as the other forums. And again, that is okay... I just hope you all learn something from this. Even old men can change and perhaps at that time I can re-engage in civil dialogue.
Enjoy yourselves and be safe. :)
"I thought that this site was different from the others. It is not. It is the same dynamic as the others... posturing, ridicule, and blind "cult-like" loyalty to the organization."
You know what, this is one thing I completely agree with you on. YOU ARE WRONG ! I would love for you to quote me a post of "posturing", "ridicule" and "blind cult like loyalty to the organization" (well okay Tim did bash on you a few times, pick someone who actually posted in this thread a response to the questions)
Come on YUL-I may not like your approach but come back and let me drill you some more. You didn't answer any of the questions from those first 2 pages either.
So please tell me why you posted anything at all? It apparently wasn't to join in. It looks like you are the one who is here doing the posturing and ridicule to me.
I am quite sure you are still lurking, don't wait another 5 days and 8 pages. Or is that your MO, then you can ignore direct questions?
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I'm more critical than you are! My gutted emgo megs are louder,my off the rack colors are gnarlier,my fringe is longer,my opinions are better-THAN YOURS! I am as bad or worse than most of you in being one to notice others faults but at least I know it. Let's get back to enjoying the back roads with others of similar tastes. After all the weather barriers I still plan to get to "The Hills" monday. If anyone else shows up great-even if they're a 'Hoglie Rider' I'll try to show them a good time. These 8 pages of banter may offend or at least scare away some folks. Let's try to keep this stuff on the back burner 'til winter when we need things to argue about unless like me you're trying to get out on your x-country skis!GJ
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Stop it John, you're making way too much sense. ;D
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I am here; heavy with disappointment.
I am wrong. I thought that this site was different from the others. It is not. It is the same dynamic as the others... posturing, ridicule, and blind "cult-like" loyalty to the organization.
I will continue just to read and will no longer participate as I do with other message boards.
And that is fine. But maybe you will not be so harsh with your judgments of the other sites knowing that you all are susceptible to the same collapse of social graces as the others.You have all participated and have behaved just as poorly as the other forums. And again, that is okay... I just hope you all learn something from this. Even old men can change and perhaps at that time I can re-engage in civil dialogue.
Enjoy yourselves and be safe. :)
I have not been harsh with my judgments of other sites. I post on TA and ZG, attend their rides,
and generally support their existence. MNSBR is more focused on track riding so I don't go there.
Just because you see some negative comments about those forums don't lump me in with those
who make those comments. I just prefer the style of rides you see posted here (long, twisty rides
deep into WI).
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Point taken, nicely done!
I'm more critical than you are! My gutted emgo megs are louder,my off the rack colors are gnarlier,my fringe is longer,my opinions are better-THAN YOURS! I am as bad or worse than most of you in being one to notice others faults but at least I know it. Let's get back to enjoying the back roads with others of similar tastes. After all the weather barriers I still plan to get to "The Hills" monday. If anyone else shows up great-even if they're a 'Hoglie Rider' I'll try to show them a good time. These 8 pages of banter may offend or at least scare away some folks. Let's try to keep this stuff on the back burner 'til winter when we need things to argue about unless like me you're trying to get out on your x-country skis!GJ
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I have not been harsh with my judgments of other sites.
IMO, I didn't see any particular harsh attitude toward any particular board on MN-MSTA. Certainly not like the vitrolic postings about ZG on other forums. But I don't claim to read every posting so maybe I missed something.
I made one comment about watching a train of 25 bikes pull away from me on my one and only MNSBR ride. It was a factual observation, nothing more...no pontificating, no particular point....nothing. But I know, at least, one person who seemed to take offense and I wonder if this wasn't what motivated Yul. The irony is, they could post about all the old, MN-MSTA farts riding slow on their rides over there and I would have agreed with them. Sometimes I wonder if humans lost their ability to ignore what mildly offends them.
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I had a "riding safely" thought today on the way to work. I was riding up the highway (61N in Newport) following a stranger on a Gold Wing. Seeing as we didn't know each other at all, I was being extra respectful of my following distance, making sure to leave "plenty" of room. It was rush hour, 6:45am or so, and we were going about 70mph. As we rolled past a semi-truck with a big "53'" label on the side, it hit me that I was only leaving at most 50' between this stranger and I, nowhere near the "3 seconds".
Anyways, I sometimes count off the seconds in my head, but it doesn't really affect me if I only get halfway through "one mississippi". Today I realized that if 3 semi's couldn't easily merge between me and the vehicle in front of me, I'm probably not leaving myself enough room to stop. I don't know if I'll every be able to really leave the official space, it just seems like such a huge distance, but I know that from now on I'll be thinking "Can a semi fit?".
a.s.
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Anything you may construe as a harsch judgement by me, is simply calling it like I see it....I can spit out my view of harsch reality to all the forums, including all those I frequent and I make no apologies about it.
Here would be another following distance fun fact;
Just because the "lead bike" passes, does not mean to take your cue from that bike and follow blindly. Sometimes the lead bike is passing and figures the followers are smart enough to stay put and let the "lead bike" pass before everyone jumps out into the left lane following........ Everyone jumping out blind....This can lead to suddenly there is not enough room for all the bikes to get back into the right lane, or the lead bike may have to pass many more vehicles than they planned on or have room for, just so that the "followers" can merge back into the right lane. You should be riding and always making your own decisions-never should you be "following" or taking your cue off the bike in front of you and then blindly following.
Anyways following distance is always very important to everyones safety. (@ 70 mph it should be over 200')
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Following distance goes out the window at rush hour though. There is no way you will be able to keep a 200' cushion unless you are slowing down, leading drivers behind you to tailgate and zip around you to fill the gap. I found all one can really do is keep your wits and ride staggered and make sure you are ready to take evasive action. I quit riding rush hour because it's just too dangerous on a bike IMO.
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It is easy for a car to follow a bike too closely because it is easy to see around us. I bet many that tailgate a bike are not really seeing it and are actually following the car ahead.
Lloyd's passing comment is accurate. I have seen many situations (not this group) where the lead bike is a bit aggressive and the followers really get stuck in a bad situation.
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Lloyd's passing comment is accurate. I have seen many situations (not this group) where the lead bike is a bit aggressive and the followers really get stuck in a bad situation.
I think they choose to make a situation bad by choosing to pass in a bad location with limited visibility. Fear of loosing contact with the lead rider outweighs their good passing judgement. To paraphrase Ray's comments, "You have a route sheet, Ride your own ride". I bowed out of one ride where there were 4 riders passing blind on a double yellow just because the lead rider made a poor choice to pass.
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My comment is more directed at the followers, not at the lead bike being "aggressive" with their passing. Regardless how passive or aggressive the lead bike decides to get by traffic, the following bikes need to allow room for that bike and themselves (should they decide to follow through at the same time). All too often far too many of the "followers" just jump on the band wagon and blindly follow around traffic putting their safety and the safety of others at risk-including that lead bike. One thing one must consider, that lead bike can pass (solo) at will, nearly anywhere, nearly anytime-- a group of bikes cannot do this (this does not mean I advocate or support seeing a 20' hole 3 cars up and making that pass to leap frog past traffic, but lets say you are behind 10 cars, spread out, traveling at 55 in a 55 and you want to run 65, and there are openings of say 50' (I doubt you would see bigger as people are stupid about following too close) I could see the lead bike jumping past 1 or 2 vehicles at a time until they leapfrogged past all the vehicles--the problem would lie with multiple bikes trying to follow and fill those same tiny 50' openings.......first off a 50' opening isn't enough for safety period-once you decide to pass and jump into that hole, now it is only about 22' between you and both the vehicle in front of you and behind you---
Does anyone actually think this is safe or that they could stop if the vehicle in front of you slammed on the brakes?
Do you think that vehicle behind you could stop before running you over?
Anyways-there is also the case where, the lead bike is going for that 50' opening in their efforts to leap frog past that line, and suddenly in the mirror there are 3 or 4 bikes coming with them (all blindly following into that tiny 50' opening) I can tell you right now someone isn't going to make it in there......You have acceleration and decelleration factors, multiple bikes don't pass as one unit, then you have 6' long by 2 1/2' wide vehicles jockying to "squeeze" together--this scenario can push the lead bike to suddenly have to change plans of going into that tiny opening they planned for and now make a run to try to get past the entire line or at a minimum up to the next 50' opening (considering now they are likely in WOT pass mode, that is going to be a tough pass to run nearly triple digits and slow back now into that 50' hole up ahead)---yes this would be aggressive passing, but what I often see.
So just consider allowing the leader to pass on their own and you pass on your own, unless it is actually clear where multiple bikes can pass.
RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE, but be cognisant of other riders and how what you do affects their safety and decisions.
I am talking group riding scenario, not necessarily rush hour traffic or riding with some "stranger".--Rush hour scenarios have their own rules and while I have and will ride in them (unwillingly and certainly not for fun), I certainly am aware the risks to my health are greatly increased during this time. I will give hang gestures and even brake light a car following me too closely, drift back increasing my following distance too......If someone is stupid enough to try to fill a 100' gap I leave, I have no problem pacing them until the hole is closed forcing them into having to brake and fall back behind-that always gets their attention- couple that with my explecitives and I usually have them following with a little extra distance. Just don't blindly assume they will brake, many times they will just push over anyways forcing you to move out of their way of be hit......( a fist through the window or boot to the door doesn't prevent this) Then you are best off to fall way behind as clearly they could care less about your safety
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A thought completely unrelated to any previous post ....
I think the premise of the thread is misguided. One can never "ride safely".
As even the most safety conscious rider will acknowledge, the best we can do is manage the risk.
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My comment is more directed at the followers, not at the lead bike being "aggressive" with their passing.
Understood and I agree. However there is little risk if the leader makes an easy slow pass, unlimited visibility and a mile of traffic free passing lane.
I am not positing that the leader is responsible for the safety of the passes of others. Absolute not. On the other hand, leading stupid increases risk for others.
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"I am not posting that the leader is responsible for the safety of the passes of others. Absolute not. On the other hand, leading stupid increases risk for others."
Following stupid increases the risks for others. Just being stupid increases the risks for everyone, leader or follower.
"Understood and I agree. However there is little risk if the leader makes an easy slow pass, unlimited visibility and a mile of traffic free passing lane."
It is still the responsibility of everyone (the "followers"and "leaders" alike) to access the risks and manage them appropriately for themselves.....erroring on the side of extra caution when a group is involved---
My point is still far too many "followers" just follow blindly putting themselves and the leader and everyone around in danger....Don't confuse difference
Yes what the leader does can affect the group-but you as an individual rider can chose to not follow their lead...pretty hard for them being out front to screw up a pass you are going to make?? (UNless the follower is just a follower and has no brain to think with on their own. NO??) However it is pretty easy for a follower to screw up a pass the leader is making.
You can't force 6 oranges into a teaspoon....Ride your own ride but do it smarter than you may do when solo.
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[SNIP]
... Just being stupid increases the risks for everyone, leader or follower.
This is a great quote. :)
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Understood and I agree. However there is little risk if the leader makes an easy slow pass, unlimited visibility and a mile of traffic free passing lane.
Ah, we don't generally take that road :P
:)
a.s.
p.s. *really* good to see you back posting!
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[SNIP]
... Just being stupid increases the risks for everyone, leader or follower.
This is a great quote. :)
+1
I also like:
My point is still far too many "followers" just follow blindly putting themselves and the leader and everyone around in danger.
It appears to me we are all saying the same thing, in different ways.
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So back to some factual safety posting;
9 days ago- after the rides conclusion and heading back up 35 to Prescott, I was being followed by a few boneheads...I was doing the leapfrog pass (obviously I wanted to go faster than traffic was moving) Well twice I made passes that were safe enough for me and my one bike, but atleast 3 other bikes would join in and fill the gap I was planning on taking--well that forced me into a position of having to go WOT to the next opening putting me a whole hell of alot closer to oncoming traffic and a closing rate far faster (to people traveling the same direction) than what I planned, anticipated or deemed safe or necessary---basically forcing me into an unsafe condition---it pissed me off !
Is that clear and concise enough without berrating and name calling?
I hope and plan to not ride with these people again......
So there is some passing posting information
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Well you should know better than to let a bunch of Harleys hang with ya Lloyd! :P
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I guess I should have seen it coming after witnessing the 3 bikes follow the lead bike in a space a minivan would normally fill earlier in the day....
I guess I did call them boneheads..........perhaps I should have said idiotic riding behavior from riders without enough skills or good judgement to care about their safety or mine...........
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"idiotic riding behavior from riders without enough skills or good judgement to care about their safety or mine..........."
"boneheads"
Which is less offensive?
The couple texts I have gotten, think I should just continue to say what I really want to say and damn the consequences.........I think I will go with that.
I guess it worked for Tim- no admonishment, no reprimand, no anything...even after pushing it to the forefront.
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Since Admin went in and deleted my post of my quotes of Tim's statements and Tim and/or Admin deleted those posts themselves----I will requote them for the future readers, otherwise nobody has a clue how lopsided the punishment vs no punishment actually is.
These are 2 of the posts that Tim put up, berating and name calling YUL that got no punishment, admonishment and no mention by the admin.
Yet me stating that I will speak my mind (just like everyone else does) got me 7 days of not being able to post and called to the "principals" office.....
"Thought about it, and the evidence does indeed support that you are a moron... "in the purist""
"This simpleton needs to go back to the rock from which he crawled out of - I know exactly who you are, and yes, you are still a moron."
There was another post or two as well along these same lines, which I did not copy and paste into a word document.....but clearly between these 3 or 4 posts. Well they were in direct conflict with what supposedly is supposed to be the forum conduct rules and they got nothing except eventually deleted.
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"idiotic riding behavior from riders without enough skills or good judgement to care about their safety or mine..........."
"boneheads"
Which is less offensive?
The couple texts I have gotten, think I should just continue to say what I really want to say and damn the consequences.........I think I will go with that.
I guess it worked for Tim- no admonishment, no reprimand, no anything...even after pushing it to the forefront
OK
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This thread needs some UG help.
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
BOOM! Next question to discuss: Better UGs: Rizzla or Tech3?
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In the interest of fair and balanced coverage...
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don't forget the Ducati UGs
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tech3
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Rizzla---Tech3 maybe crossed-eyed!!!
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I have to vote Tech3 as well. 8)
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don't forget the Ducati UGs
Not technically an UG but worth a mention...
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From Rizla's Law and Order period:
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he can be my UB anytime he wants.
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he can be my UB anytime he wants.
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!!!