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General Category => Off Topic => Topic started by: Hope2Ride on December 06, 2011, 05:31:53 PM
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Other than ZARS, are there any recommended riding schools/instructors in the area?
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A lot of the schools that ride at DCTC are good. I can't say much about BIR as i have never been there (though i've heard good things about the schools that teach there). When sign ups open up for DCTC i'm gonna go sign up and get me a spot
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Hedonistic Enthusiasm is just once a year at DCTC and is the least expensive entry into the addiction. It is very welcoming to newbies and women but has very high instructor to pupil ratio. there is a web page
Rider Course is the granddaddy at DCTC and has a great following. However, limited dates and limited customer service. I have had problems (as have others) with getting help when I needed to cancel/change dates. medium instructor to pupil ratio. many racers use this for local tuning and practice. there is a web page
ZARS is the new kid on the block and does both DCTC advanced riding and full on track days. the usual ratio is one instructor to 3-4 students and we focus on making the student comfortable in the new environment. If you have never met Jessica, she is a great motivator and a good businesswoman. The schedule seems to always have openings for first timers and there is a discount for first timers. There is a web page and a whole section over at MNSBR (sorry for the cross post).
Disclosure, I vounteer teach for ZARS and HE and I teach Total Control for $'s ar Rider Academy. Both were written up in Minnesota Motorcycle Monthly this year, the reviews might help you decide what is best for you. http://motorbyte.com/ (http://motorbyte.com/)
Brent and I are the co lead instructors for level 1 at ZARS and we'd be happy to help you with your new addiction ;D
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wonderful! thank you for the great info!
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when I attended Riding Course, I found it to be great. Actual classroom
sessions right after track sessions. The day I was there, the instructor to pupil
ratio was high.
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HE...hedonistic Enthusiast at a $50 fee and oriented towards the "first time trackday attendees" is likely your best bang for buck.
Zars-well most of the customers I have that have attended say the same thing, they get good attention in the first session or two of the begginer level 1 (Brent, Debby, Ian) but are neglected after that and for the most part it is just a ride on your own and figure it out on your own after that-especially once you pass level 2.......instruction ? well there is very little-it is just an open trackday....I have some other problems with ZARS days but not relevant to what you hope to accomplish
I personally think you are and will continue to learn the most on rides with People like Vince, just like what you have been doing for the past 3 months.--But some good reading materials in the off season would help as well.
I do not think "taking it to the track" is a better way to learn or even a faster way to learn---but everyone has an opinion.
Like we touched on (if one truly believes they "need" a trackday)--one could get a group of 15-20 friends together and rent the track privately for less than one zars day-and run atleast twice as many laps getting away from the 20 minute format and too many long delays from crashing. As a bonus if you pick the right friends you likely would learn more and have a better experience as well.....Hell you could likely even invite a few of those Zars instructors and offer them free tracktime--it seems they are used to be unpaid.
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I do not think "taking it to the track" is a better way to learn or even a faster way to learn---but everyone has an opinion.
Agreed. I will say though that "taking it to the track" does add to your overall body of knowledge about motorcycling. Is it the "end all be all"? Absolutely not, especially when it comes to how much of what you learn on the track translates to street riding. The debate is still open on how much track instruction helps you on the street.
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Hope, some of the best instructers are standin right in front of you. Lloyd and Vince are good friends of yours and are some of the best riders I've seen. There will be nothin out there that will do you as much good as time on the bike. You have great enthusiasm and that in it self is the most fun. Riding form is all well and good but won't serve you as well as riding safe.
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Riding form is all well and good but won't serve you as well as riding safe.
Hi Mike, not sure I fully agree. For example, if someone is riding dirt bike style, that will be unsafe when they need to tighten up a turn and run out of ground clearance. Good form isn't just about looking good in photos and video.
I like how Pat Hahn simplified it (Ride Hard, Ride Smart)
1) have a plan of how you want to ride
2) practice your skills
3) use protective gear in case 1 and 2 aren't sufficient.
Or did I misunderstand your point?
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I don't think you missunderstood me at all. Track riding is a bit different than the street, like Vince told me awhile ago, some of these people are more concerned about getting a knee down than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I think what you guys are teaching these people is one of the best things goin. All I'm sayin is don't replace skill and safety with form. I've seen this first hand, if your in full race form on the street there is no margin. I'm not sayin that gettin off the bike when you have run out of lean angle is a bad thing. But if your already off the bike and run out of angle(oops)
All I really want to say is, if you riding track stile on the street your going to get hurt. Most of the people that do both street and track know the difference, and those that don't as far as I've seen crash.
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I think..............
What is taught at the tracks (trackday or otherwise) is all about racing lines, fastest lines, getting off the bike and knee down or at least out...........then factor in following distances on the track-you are always in very close proximity
and most of that is not useful on the street, actually most of that is down right dangerous on the street in the wrong hands (which coincidentally is almost everyone using trackdays and riding on the street) Far too many "trackday" riders.......well damn near everyone I know who has done them, is more about going "faster" than being "better" or "safer".............Faster should not be a consideration on the street...faster will come as a result of better and safer. Better and safer will never come as a result of going faster
Just because someone can ride a corner "faster" ..............lets say you can run WI95 from E down to G at 150, does that mean you are a better rider than the person who rides that same stretch at 100? (now I not saying anyone should ride that stretch of road in triple digits--it is simply an example)
Speed "faster" does not equate to better--if that was the standard-then everyone with a liter bike would be the best riders in the world while all those 600cc and smaller bike riders, well they would apparently just suck by liter bike standards. (I find it usually the opposite in the real world with people buying liter bikes to make up for thier own short comings as a rider....but that is an entirely different argument and doesn't apply to everyone just a large majority)
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I think where these discussions always tend to go sideways is when it becomes street OR track, it's quite possible to do both regularly, enjoyably, and relatively safely. I think they both have merit.
My $.02 on crossover skills from closed course riding: (not meant as an argument or personal attack against anyone!)
DCTC, especially at the lower levels (when people aren’t concerned with going “fast”), is a fantastic way to work on the basics like Body Position, Lines, being smooth with throttle and brake inputs, slowly increasing your comfort level with corner speeds and increased lean angle all in a controlled environment (no gravel, oncoming traffic, etc) that all (minus perhaps the lines) translate well to spirited street riding.
Trackdays (at an actual racetrack) begin to introduce skills and riding habits that don’t necessarily translate directly to safe street riding. HARD braking, trail braking, race lines linking multiple corners, riding in close proximity with other riders, high speeds, getting strong drives out of corners, setting up passes, passing through corners, etc.
Where there is some crossover value to street riding from trackdays though is exploring the upper limits of modern sport bikes in a controlled environment (to a level that would be extremely dangerous on the street), that will allow you to greatly increase your comfort zone of skill and trust in the equipment (tires,bike, suspension, etc) which means when you are faced with a situation that forces you out of where you want to be on the street you are prepared to deal with it because you have a HUGE cushion left when you are riding at a typical street pace.
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Lots of falls are "mental" and I believe "the track" does more good things for your brain than bad things.
On a related note, my one beef with the official (original?) "Pace" is the avoidance of "hanging off", which is nothing more than a technique (track style?) used to decrease lean angle. I suppose it could be viewed as a compromise, especially if used to the extreme, but I think in most cases hanging off increases safety at a given speed, especially if the technique is refined with regular practice.
a.s.
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Mike D, you're right about riding with people like Vince and Lloyd. And believe me, I did, I dragged Vince out on a pretty regular basis. I love to take advantage of riding with both of them not only because they are friends of mine and I enjoy thier company and riding with them but also because I do learn something new every time I'm with them. And I certainly cannot say that about everyone I ride with!
As a newbie who's spent 3 months street riding and 2 full track days at Barber I've been able to use what I've learned at both places. For example, while preparing to corner on the track I would constantly tell myself "look through it, stick your knee out and accelerate out of the turn" all of which I learned while riding with Vince on the street. I told myself that over and over and over and it really helped. I wasn't trying to drag knee, just corner better.
On the track itself I hope to just improve my skills overall. I don't plan to race anyone... yet ;D I do understand the difference between track and street. I see the track as a "safer" (no traffic,gravel) place to practice cornering and become more familiar with my bike. While at Barber I was able to push myself a little harder than I have on the street which has helped me get a better feel for what my bike is capable of. Anyone who has seen my Barber videos knows I'm not about going faster, I was the slowest one there. But even being the slowest bike out there I had a blast, got a better feel for my baby, and didn't crash, whew!!!
Lloyd you mentioned getting some good reads, what do you recommend?
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I think where these discussions always tend to go sideways is when it becomes street OR track, it's quite possible to do both regularly, enjoyably, and relatively safely. I think they both have merit.
My $.02 on crossover skills from closed course riding: (not meant as an argument or personal attack against anyone!)
DCTC, especially at the lower levels (when people aren’t concerned with going “fast”), is a fantastic way to work on the basics like Body Position, Lines, being smooth with throttle and brake inputs, slowly increasing your comfort level with corner speeds and increased lean angle all in a controlled environment (no gravel, oncoming traffic, etc) that all (minus perhaps the lines) translate well to spirited street riding.
Trackdays (at an actual racetrack) begin to introduce skills and riding habits that don’t necessarily translate directly to safe street riding. HARD braking, trail braking, race lines linking multiple corners, riding in close proximity with other riders, high speeds, getting strong drives out of corners, setting up passes, passing through corners, etc.
Where there is some crossover value to street riding from trackdays though is exploring the upper limits of modern sport bikes in a controlled environment (to a level that would be extremely dangerous on the street), that will allow you to greatly increase your comfort zone of skill and trust in the equipment (tires,bike, suspension, etc) which means when you are faced with a situation that forces you out of where you want to be on the street you are prepared to deal with it because you have a HUGE cushion left when you are riding at a typical street pace.
Trackdays of any sort do no equate to a huge cushion on the street as you claim-on the contrary what I see all the time is people who do trackdays routinely somehow equate to thinking suddenly they are fricking an expert and that the fact they can go "fast" on a closed course racetrack that somehow now they have these awesome skills that they have all this room in reserve on the street (or as you put it "huge cushion"). It is a bunch of bullshit and anyone who has been around long enough knows it.
So in the mood of not being a personal attack.........
Not to pick you out-but it is an easy example and you provide almost all the evidence yourself.......
Are you claiming you had some "huge cushion" following Roger in Arkansas when you rode right off the road? Why didn't all your vast skills of the trackdays save you from such a "novice" mistake?
You clearly fit squarely into the typical stereotype of people that do trackdays-you think you are "fast" and therefore you think that means you are "good".
Without making this personal, this is strictly for comparison---I ran Barber on a 250 Ninja years ago and ran 11 seconds a lap faster than your fastest lap and you were on a bike that makes 5 times the horsepower.-----You are not fast, despite your bragging of being fast.
Yes there are examples of people who can do trackdays and take something away from them that is beneficial to street riding.
Yes there are examples of people who successfully ride street and track (without riding like an idiot on the street)
Yes it is possible to do both--but the vast majority are adrenaline junkies that can't discern the difference between street smarts and track "fast"
Nowhere do I say it has to be street or track.....I have done plenty of both.
But the vast majority of trackday junkies that I know (likely in the 90%+ range of them). Cannot or will not ride on the street in a manner that isn't mimicking "track riding"--ie. wrong lines for the street, following too close, knee down, using oncoming traffic lanes, hard braking and hard acceleration, riding at or near their limit etc........And to me that certainly isn't "safe" or "controlled" riding-it is them trying to prove they are "fast"
****** here is the edit part, I left the original post stand for clarification *****
My intent with bringing up the incident in Arkansas where Ben ran off the road was merely to question where he comes up with his thought that track riders have "HUGE cushion". Knowing that Ben fancies himself quite the trackday person- it would have stood to reason he would have such "HUGE cushions" on such a typical type of street ride, he would not be subject to such a mistake?
Calling him out for his "bragging" had nothing to do with the videos he has posted, and was unnecessary--I should have simply informed him of that perception by many in a pm. Thus the laptime comparison would not have been needed to be as an example to debunk his bragging of being "fast" either. So regardless of if he fits squarely into the stereotypical trackday junkie or not-it is irrelevant and was not needed to be posted.
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Hope;
some of these are better than others, but it is a long winter-you likely will have time to read them all.
STREET STRATEGIES----David L Hough
PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING-----David L Hough
TOTAL CONTROL---------------Lee Parks
TWIST OF THE WRIST (all of them)----Kieth Code
RIDE HARD RIDE SMART---------------Pat Hahn
HOW TO RIDE A MOTORCYCLE--------Pat Hahn
SPORT RIDING TECHNIQUES---------Nick Ianetsch
then of course read "the pace", there are a couple other good ones-but they elude me at the moment.
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Wow, I have spittle all over my face from reading that last screed, Lloyd.
1) I ride street and track
2) I have crashed once on a closed course 8 years ago
3) I have not crashed on the street since the early 80's
4) I taught MSF in 80's and started teaching advanced riding in the late '00's
4) Some of you are going off stereotypes, 2nd hand opinions and conjecture. If you are not in a position to have first hand exerience with the courses Hope asked about, well then STFU
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While that was a strong post, I believe we should be able to comment on the output of the courses, no?
I have seen that many trackday riders choose to ride unsafely on the street, and I believe a lot of the willingness to take risks comes directly from advanced trackday training/experience.
On the otherhand, I believe that track experiences are very valuable and can teach you things you won't ever get out in the wild following friends at a safe distance.
a.s.
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Very good reading list. I agree with it.
Hope;
some of these are better than others, but it is a long winter-you likely will have time to read them all.
STREET STRATEGIES----David L Hough
PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING-----David L Hough
TOTAL CONTROL---------------Lee Parks
TWIST OF THE WRIST (all of them)----Kieth Code
RIDE HARD RIDE SMART---------------Pat Hahn
HOW TO RIDE A MOTORCYCLE--------Pat Hahn
SPORT RIDING TECHNIQUES---------Nick Ianetsch
then of course read "the pace", there are a couple other good ones-but they elude me at the moment.
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4) Some of you are going off stereotypes, 2nd hand opinions and conjecture. If you are not in a position to have first hand exerience with the courses Hope asked about, well then STFU
I'm not. My opinions are based on my first hand experiences that I have seen from 1000's of miles of group riding and the consequences I have seen first hand of some riders having trouble knowing what skills learned on the track actually help on the street.
*edit*
and just as I don't blame the gun when the owner of said gun misuses the gun to commit a crime, I don't blame track instructors for teaching techniques that work on the track and are then misused by riders on the street.
I do have a problem though in that as there is a financial interest (they're conducting a business people, always remember that) in pushing people to attend track days.
And from first hand testimony I have heard from instructors, one of the biggest "selling points" they push is that the techniques learned on the track will help a rider on the street. And my position (from first hand experiences) is that if not handled properly, track techniques are harmful on the street.
Caveat emptor
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While that was a strong post, I believe we should be able to comment on the output of the courses, no?
I agree, I would like to hear all opinions about attending the courses. And of course, it's a free world! ;D I enjoy reading the debates on this forum. People actually contribute good information, not just call each other names.
What I am mainly looking for is people who have attended or taught at the schools and what they think of the instructors, ratios, and do they recommend it to others or did they feel it was wasted money.
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Sorry if i offended anyone. I think it needs to be said that one of the model riders held up as an example passed me at DCTC on one wheel, outside a passing zone and almost took me out botching the landing. If that is an example of a good rider, then go for it, let that person teach you how to be
good lucky.
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I agree, I would like to hear all opinions about attending the courses. And of course, it's a free world! ;D I enjoy reading the debates on this forum. People actually contribute good information, not just call each other names.
What I am mainly looking for is people who have attended or taught at the schools and what they think of the instructors, ratios, and do they recommend it to others or did they feel it was wasted money.
okay, at the very least do HE, first timers price is $50, no better deal on a track day at DCTC. And that includes lunch and a t shirt to boot! Sign up for the women's only group if you do it Hope.
ZARS is great, BUT you need to be pro active. I've found the instructors to be very willing to help, but ya gotta ask sometimes. There's some instructors that are better than others. Based on my own personal experience. And NO, I'll not tell in public.
Steve Bauman's (sp?) riding course is the best at DCTC. IMHO. You all know I love Jess and the ZARS people and atmosphere. But I honestly learned more in one day with Steve than two days with ZARS. Hopefully not because I'm in beg. I'm not there to learn how to be a "go speed racer go-oo", but more about body positioning and technique. I couldn't give a shit less if I'm the slowest one out there. And most likely will always be one of the slowest.
I disagree that what you learn at the track doesn't translate to street. Doing track days gave me more confidence on the street. Not for doing something stupid, but for having the confidence to push myself a bit more than I would have. And I found that it helped more than a few times. When I was on a road trip out west and came upon some things that I hadn't faced in MN or WI my track training came back to me in a heartbeat!
I also have learned a lot just riding with some people. Namely Vince and Martin. Matt Boe is another fav of mine to ride with. They never ever make me feel like I need to hurry up, offer good non threatening advise. And above all, are uber fun to ride with. there's also a lot of people that I won't ride street with. I always rode my own ride even before I knew what that was, and I've gotten some flack for it.
of course this is all my 1.50.
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"If you are not in a position to have first hand experience with the courses Hope asked about, well then STFU"
That is my first hand experience.
I am not offended that easily Ian.
I think nearly everyone knows who you are referring to as a "good rider" in your example. I have a very short list of riders I ride with who I consider "good riders" and even they are subject to make mistakes in judgement.
What this person rides like on the track or with members of other forums, does not reflect on how they ride with me-if it did-they wouldn't be riding with me and they already know this.
If how aggressive I ride on a track reflected on how I ride on the street I highly doubt anyone would ever ride with me on the street.
My point is--there are people who can be Jekyll and Hyde with there riding on the street vs the track and then there are people who only have one gear...wreckless abandon. I have over 100 customers who do lots of trackdays- I can only think of 5 that I would be willing to ride on the street with, the rest are far too wreckless (at least they were when I rode with them last)
IMO-if you want to learn street strategies and street skills, you are best off doing it on the street. I haven't found a riding course on a track yet that is truly all about street riding-they are all on the street (sans getting past -this is the clutch, here is your "friction zone", this is the brake, this is the throttle, here is how you turn-) An instructor with communication directly to you for real time direction, criticism and advice, following you on the streets where you ride in real world conditions seems to me to be one of the best learning tools for becoming a better street rider.........Right after getting it in your head that safety is first priority and who cares if you are the slowest or fastest...
Of course you should take away from any instruction what you put in for effort....and everyones goals and intentions are different (just what I see in 95% of the cases of the trackday people, is the riders becoming over confident idiots when it comes to street riding.)
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Kim is right in saying that what you learn from the track can help on the street. Just learning the physics of what makes a bike work is very important. There is very little learned from someone who is a good rider who only wants to show you how good they can ride. Don't be afraid to ask what you might think might be stupit questions to find out how things work. Like why is it when you push forward on the inside handle bar does the bike come down and infact you are pushing the handle bar in one direction and the bike goes the other. Start asking questions like this on the forum and see where it goes, see if some of these guys really know what there talkin about.
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I have not been to any track day ever. I'm not sure what I'd get out of it if I went, other than have a lot of fun I'm sure.
I used to spend weekend afternoons by myself in big hidden parking lots like behind high schools. I'd go there and practice since they're empty and I could fool around. I became comfortable touching pegs and getting past that part of me that got spooked when the bike was at certain levels. I just kept doing that until I felt comfortable and still in control of the bike. I'd practice panic stops from 60mph and then lean it over and go into a tight turn at 20mph. I'd practice slowing the bike down with the front brake while leaned over without losing lean angle. I'd bring some cones and practice swerving and then immediately leaning it over into a turn, and learning what I had to do with my body to make that happen. I spent a while working on getting the bike to lean and turn to the right as comfortably as I was getting it to the go to the left. I was more comfortable going into left handers because the throttle hand is offered more control, so I spent a lot of time doing quick actions and leaning it over to the right, and accelerating leaned over.
Actually, every year I still go and do these things, especially in the spring after being off the bike for months.
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Another useful thing to do beyond any sponsored advanced riders course is to simply go to a parking lot and working on techniques taught in the MSf classes (emergency braking, tight circles practicing looking as far as you can through turns and slow speed riding-riding as slow as u can without putting ur feet down). These help majorly in the spring time when we're all a little rusty after not riding all winter.
Back on topic, track days/DCTC are very helpful as you can push the boundaries of your riding and when u get back on the street riding at 80%, you still have a couchin for error. Just like a new rider following a pro in the backroads, the new rider will be riding 100% just to keep up and the pro will be on another Sunday cruise.
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Ya.. What Matt said :D ha
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Yep, it would be good if we could have the British style of on road training and on road certification. MSF has tried this and there is one local instructor I know of, but for some reason, the course hasn't launched to public yet. Part of the difference between on road and on track instruction is you get to pick who you want to learn from on road, on road is cheaper, there is more riding time but less instruction time. A drawback is that on-road pairing up sometimes transfers bad info or mis-explains a concept. For example, a whole generation of riders were taught (on road) not to use their front brakes. An advantage of a team teaching environment is that sometimes one person can't get the words right for you to grasp a concept and another person steps in and changes the way it is being explained enough that it "clicks".
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What this person rides like on the track or with members of other forums, does not reflect on how they ride with me-if it did-they wouldn't be riding with me and they already know this.
Then you probably can't predict how they will behave with Hope on a training ride. You perhaps might PM Hope to tell her of your reservations on that person's judgement.
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Ya.. What Matt said :D ha
haha i guess i beat you by a few typing minutes
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Sorey I'm nut az Gud withe Theze compudors. Lol
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I've done some track days and they have let me explore the limits of my bikes in a safe manner. I feel safer on the road having pushed my bikes on the track and knowing their limitations and their idosyncracies. I've also pushed myself on the track, far more than I would on the street. I took the riding course several years ago and one thing always sticks with me, "on the track you can go 100% but on the street you have to dial that back to 75-80% so that you have room for those things you can't predict on the street." I always keep something in reserve on the street, I don't attempt to drag a knee, I don't attempt to be the fastest one out there and always try and learn from riders who are better than me. I try to stick to "the pace" and really was able to test that out riding in North Carolina this fall. I was able to from turn to turn at a decent pace without having to use the brakes much, was able to run a nice rhythm and it was a great ride. I adhere to the principal that as fast as you think you are, there's always somebody faster.
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Three pages already. It looks like we have a lot to talk about. It's hard for me to say what I am really thinking or trying to say. Street riding you learn how to think quick to expect the unexpected because it is the unexpected that is coming at you. The track teaches you how hard you can brake for one thing. It also teaches you how to go around a corner fast and how to power out. So if a deer runs out in front of you for me this is where the track comes in. Can I turn the bike out of the way in time or can I make the bike turn that sharp. Can I brake and turn at the same time. Can I brake and stop braking and be able to turn the bike and miss. And this is good to know that I can't stop in time and not give up and bail. On the track you are doing the same thing over and over so you could say that you don't have to think or be on your toes if you know what I mean. On the street you are going more than 3 miles so everything is new to you so you maybe paying a lot more attention if you get what I'm saying. One said that they practiced in a parking lot. When I was learning I did this a lot. I practiced braking with the front brake and trying to keep the bike up with the wheel locked up. Not something easy to do. Locking up the front wheel is not the fastest way to stop but in the real world this may happen to you when you are desperate. If you can keep the bike upright for say 20ft without going down this maybe a life saver.
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Trackdays of any sort do no equate to a huge cushion on the street as you claim-on the contrary what I see all the time is people who do trackdays routinely somehow equate to thinking suddenly they are fricking an expert and that the fact they can go "fast" on a closed course racetrack that somehow now they have these awesome skills that they have all this room in reserve on the street (or as you put it "huge cushion"). It is a bunch of bullshit and anyone who has been around long enough knows it.
So in the mood of not being a personal attack.........
Not to pick you out-but it is an easy example and you provide almost all the evidence yourself.......
Are you claiming you had some "huge cushion" following Roger in Arkansas when you rode right off the road? Why didn't all your vast skills of the trackdays save you from such a "novice" mistake?
You clearly fit squarely into the typical stereotype of people that do trackdays-you think you are "fast" and therefore you think that means you are "good".
Without making this personal, this is strictly for comparison---I ran Barber on a 250 Ninja years ago and ran 11 seconds a lap faster than your fastest lap and you were on a bike that makes 5 times the horsepower.-----You are not fast, despite your bragging of being fast.
Yes there are examples of people who can do trackdays and take something away from them that is beneficial to street riding.
Yes there are examples of people who successfully ride street and track (without riding like an idiot on the street)
Yes it is possible to do both--but the vast majority are adrenaline junkies that can't discern the difference between street smarts and track "fast"
Nowhere do I say it has to be street or track.....I have done plenty of both.
But the vast majority of trackday junkies that I know (likely in the 90%+ range of them). Cannot or will not ride on the street in a manner that isn't mimicking "track riding"--ie. wrong lines for the street, following too close, knee down, using oncoming traffic lanes, hard braking and hard acceleration, riding at or near their limit etc........And to me that certainly isn't "safe" or "controlled" riding-it is them trying to prove they are "fast"
1. While you said twice you didn't want to make it personal, you clearly did.
2. When I first read your post I was a little confused, because you didn't even seem to be replying to my post. You quoted my entire post for posterity, so you know I haven't edited it. Where in there did I say I was "fast", an "frickin expert", or "bragging of being fast"? I am not a cocky person, and have no illusions of being "fast" on the track compared to many riders. And on the street being "fast" isn't really something to brag about in my opinion...
Not to pick you out-but it is an easy example and you provide almost all the evidence yourself.......
Are you claiming you had some "huge cushion" following Roger in Arkansas when you rode right off the road? Why didn't all your vast skills of the trackdays save you from such a "novice" mistake?
You clearly fit squarely into the typical stereotype of people that do trackdays-you think you are "fast" and therefore you think that means you are "good".
I have to admit, I LOL'd at this one. I know you don't like me for whatever reasons, and I don't care, but you're really stretching to use me as an example here. The referred to footage (which you must've found from trolling my Facebook or Youtube channel since it was never posted to the forums) had nothing to do with overriding my "vast" trackday skills or in any way riding over my head. It was at the end of a long day of hard riding, I was tired, made a mental mistake and rode off the INSIDE edge of the road by a couple inches. I stayed off the brakes didn't swerve and rode right back on without incident. Stupid? yes. Scary? yes, considering it might not have gone as well as it did. An example of riding over my head while trying to "impress" others with how "fast" I was? No, LOL. I was riding at a reasonable pace on a gentle corner, just a stupid mental mistake. Here's the video... zx10r - off road excursion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPAigEV0aPE#) The takeaway from this incident for me was when you're mentally tired, pull back before you make a mental error. I'm willing to admit when I make mistakes...
And again, never said I was "fast" and therefore "good". That's purely just you trying to put words in my mouth.
Without making this personal, this is strictly for comparison---I ran Barber on a 250 Ninja years ago and ran 11 seconds a lap faster than your fastest lap and you were on a bike that makes 5 times the horsepower.-----You are not fast, despite your bragging of being fast.
Congratulations? Again, never bragged of being "fast". Perhaps you misconstrued my posting those video's as me bragging? I just posted them because I thought it was cool what you could do with technology (the GPS data overlays) not because I was trying to impress anyone with my laptimes.
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I've done some track days and they have let me explore the limits of my bikes in a safe manner. I feel safer on the road having pushed my bikes on the track and knowing their limitations and their idosyncracies. I've also pushed myself on the track, far more than I would on the street. I took the riding course several years ago and one thing always sticks with me, "on the track you can go 100% but on the street you have to dial that back to 75-80% so that you have room for those things you can't predict on the street." I always keep something in reserve on the street, I don't attempt to drag a knee, I don't attempt to be the fastest one out there and always try and learn from riders who are better than me. I try to stick to "the pace" and really was able to test that out riding in North Carolina this fall. I was able to from turn to turn at a decent pace without having to use the brakes much, was able to run a nice rhythm and it was a great ride. I adhere to the principal that as fast as you think you are, there's always somebody faster.
Rather then trying to explain by what I mean by having a cushion on the street, I'll just "+1" this post. Well put.
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Supraman, well put. At the end of a hard day of riding its easy to make mistakes, so its that time to dial it back. I know in the riding course at our last session of the day they told us "you're tired, now is not the time to try and do your fastest lap". I went out and only did a couple of laps because I could feel myself tired and said to myself "that's enough, don't need to try and impress anybody, time to head for home" and pulled off the track.
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Holy crap somebody was human and made a mistake??? Do tell....
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BEN;
Using you as an example doesn't make it a personal attack-it is simply using you as an example, nothing personal about it except you could see it that way since it is you used as the example.
Of course I could have searched youtube for a video of someone none of us know and used that example-but that would be too much like work and an example many wouldn't be able to relate to or judge speed etc by. Especially since many know Rogers pace, so they could relate.
And to answer your question of where in that post do you brag of being fast or good---it isn't in that posting---it is just how you talk, the snide comments you continually make etc.....(on rides, on facebook, at Barber, on other forums, in other postings, pretty much all the time) It isn't just me that sees you "bragging" of how fast you are. It isn't me putting those words in your mouth.
I only used the Barber lap time comparison as a reference to your "being fast" comments. I don't consider myself "fast" at the track, and I get smoked by the "fast" guys that are actually "fast".
***** here is the edit part, I left the original post stand for clarification *****
My intent with bringing up the incident in Arkansas where Ben ran off the road was merely to question where he comes up with his thought that track riders have "HUGE cushion". Knowing that Ben fancies himself quite the trackday person- it would have stood to reason he would have such "HUGE cushions" on such a typical type of street ride, he would not be subject to such a mistake?
Calling him out for his "bragging" had nothing to do with the videos he has posted, and was unnecessary--I should have simply informed him of that perception by many in a pm. Thus the laptime comparison would not have been needed to be as an example to debunk his bragging of being "fast" either. So regardless of if he fits squarely into the stereotypical trackday junkie or not-it is irrelevant and was not needed to be posted.
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I thought this thread was Hope asking for feedback about riding schools?
not chest beating and posturing, oh well.
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Lots of good comments in this thread from all perspectives. Here's mine to stink it up: Riding courses can be really useful to newer riders. Lots of crashes and close calls on the street with new riders are caused by things like
-Not thinking you can stop fast enough to avoid a hazard and "having to lay it down" LOL
-Not keeping your eyes far enough ahead and target fixating
-Not knowing how to trail brake in a corner if you need to scrub a bit of speed
-Not trusting the bike to turn, standing it up and riding off.
-etc etc etc
These are all things that you can work on on the street or during a rider course, the nice thing about the rider course is that it gives you dedicated instructors who are there to teach you and a clean riding surface. Matt makes a good case for practicing these skills in a parking lot too. On a closed course, it also can be less distracting because many new riders are so hung up in "keeping up" on the street that they end up dedicating all of their attention to that vs improving skills. I haven't met Hope but from the vibe I get it seems like she might be an exception to this trend... Maybe it's the lack of testosterone.
Give the courses a try. You will either like them or not like them and then you can move on from there. $50 is a pretty cheap price tag to find out where you land. As for whether "track riding" has the potential to make you more dangerous on the street, there's only one thing that can do that and it's you and the decisions you make. To Lloyds point, I have seen folks who ride the track get used to riding in a specific style at a specific speed which translates into major risk the street. I have also seen people who double duty it who are the smoothest, most consistent, best street riders I have ever seen.
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I thought this thread was Hope asking for feedback about riding schools?
not chest beating and posturing, oh well.
You say that like chest beating and posturing are bad things.
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Other than ZARS, are there any recommended riding schools/instructors in the area?
I took Steve Baumen's class a couple times in '02, the first year it was offered. It was excellent. The only training I'd had before that was an MSF Experienced RiderCourse a couple years earlier, and some mandatory training to get my endorsement when I was 17, which was a joke and probably turned me away from training.
Blackhawk Farms on the Wisconsin/Illinois border has been doing their own motorcycle track days once a month, and they have some pretty good classroom-type instruction. They don't do a lot of one-on-one, but I've heard things in the classroom sessions that were really helpful to me.
Brent
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Yeah, I like BHF. It is in South Beloit IL. Beloit is in Wisconsin. Fun track. Wish I had known about their school, I rode the track with NESBA and was underwhelmed, so never went back to a NESBA event.
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BEN;
Using you as an example doesn't make it a personal attack-it is simply using you as an example, nothing personal about it except you could see it that way since it is you used as the example.
Of course I could have searched youtube for a video of someone none of us know and used that example-but that would be too much like work and an example many wouldn't be able to relate to or judge speed etc by. Especially since many know Rogers pace, so they could relate.
And if you had contained your post to discussing the video/incident you were trying to make an example of, and not veered into accusing me of being egotistical (a rather ironic accusation coming from you) I would've agreed. But of course, you didn't. The video is posted, along with my takeaway. People can judge for themselves what happened, the road is hwy 123 near Mt. Judea in AR and the rider ahead of me was indeed Roger.
And to answer your question of where in that post do you brag of being fast or good---it isn't in that posting---it is just how you talk, the snide comments you continually make etc.....(on rides, on facebook, at Barber, on other forums, in other postings, pretty much all the time) It isn't just me that sees you "bragging" of how fast you are. It isn't me putting those words in your mouth.
I only used the Barber lap time comparison as a reference to your "being fast" comments. I don't consider myself "fast" at the track, and I have won lots of races and routinely run lap times well under most. I get smoked by the "fast" guys that are actually "fast".
Clearly, it isn't "just you", since we don't interact anywhere except here. In fact there is precisely one person (not you) that can tick all the bold-ed places, who has been surprisingly absent from this thread on track riding. I assumed there was someone else behind all the "bragging" remarks, now I know. Not sure why this person thinks that way, but that's their right I guess.
I hope I don't, and don't think I do, come across as egotistical in "real life" or other places. Because I certainly don't regard myself as fast or a model rider per se (my words), I do enjoy razzing my friends good naturedly (and expect and do get it right back), especially at the track or on Facebook. I could see how someone quietly observing could misconstrue that I suppose. I have met and ridden with quite a few of the active members on here, which is something I value about this forum over the others, almost everyone is a face not just a screen name. They are free to draw their own conclusions about me from actual experience, not just internet hyperbole.
Anywho, I'm tired of arguing on the internet. It never gets anywhere anyways. You used your example of my video, whether or not it really backed up what you were trying to say. I'm ready to move on and actually talk abut bikes and riding again...
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PM sent---but just to clear some of the air.
It has been no less than 7 people who I have seen in person within the past 3 weeks who have all brought up your "bragging" about being fast etc...
So I think (reading between your lines) your assumption of knowing who 1 person is---is wrong. And yes some of it is what I have quietly observed both at trackdays, on the only ride we did together and on facebook.....
****** here is the edit part, I left the original post stand for clarification *****
My intent with bringing up the incident in Arkansas where Ben ran off the road was merely to question where he comes up with his thought that track riders have "HUGE cushion". Knowing that Ben fancies himself quite the trackday person- it would have stood to reason he would have such "HUGE cushions" on such a typical type of street ride, he would not be subject to such a mistake?
Calling him out for his "bragging" had nothing to do with the videos he has posted, and was unnecessary--I should have simply informed him of that perception by many in a pm. Thus the laptime comparison would not have been needed to be as an example to debunk his bragging of being "fast" either. So regardless of if he fits squarely into the stereotypical trackday junkie or not-it is irrelevant and was not needed to be posted.
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Hope, there is always doing any of this stuf just for the fun of it. It is always good to get together with other riders and take what you can from them. There are a lot of ego's in this sport and that is part of the reason most of us ride these things like idiots. (ANYONE) that says there ego is not a part of why they ride these things is full of crap. This is all part of the fun of riding this type of bike.
Till any of these people have there bikes show up at the track on a big rig and have a crew do all the work on there bikes, It's just for fun. Have lots and lots of fun kid, it's all about the fun.
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Hope, as many have stated ZARS, HE and Riding Course are the 3 most prominent schools that this area offers. I myself am looking at other schools that I would have to travel to, but feel that I could learn alot from. One is Colin Edwards boot camp in Texas, and another is Rich Olivers mystery camp. both of these schools put you on a dirtbike and get back to the basics. I grew up on dirtbikes and raced back in the day... riding a dirtbike and learning to slide in the dirt is going to make you a better pavement rider. If you're interested in tagging along, you are welcome to go with me. I'm hoping to do one in April and another later in the season. (as my finances allow)
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If they can teach learn from champions. I know that the best go to Keith Code. Edwards and Oliver would be great places to go to. If they start you out on a dirt bike this is a big plus. This is how I started and I tell everyone to do the same. Slower speeds, smaller lighter bike, and less damage to you and the bike when you crash. It's just easier to learn this thing called traction.
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Code was great, I learned more in a couple hours there than years of "trackdays" and racing ever taught me. Of course it costs more-but worth every penny IMO.
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I really plan on doing a Jason Pridmore STAR school one of these days.
Soon as I get healthy enough to get back on a track. And Keith Code's
school would be incredible, especially on one of his BMW's!
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The STAYIN SAFE advanced rider training ---although not local, seems to be a very good street riding course.
This is one I did a few years ago and the one I was referring to in an earlier post. (I think the originator of it and who I went through it with has passed away-but I have a couple customers who have gone through it recently (2010) and said it was very educational and very much worth the money---and for them the trip to the SE US)
I'll see if I can find some more information on where and when they will be in 2012 etc...
They gave "mini tours" at STAR this past June---perhaps (if that was a success) getting them to TWISTAR is a possibility? Ray would have to see about having them be there, since he is one of the TWISTAR organizers....Then your travel to see them wouldn't be all that far-just Spring Green Wisconsin--I for sure would do it again if they were that close..... (so we should start prodding Ray...lol)
mini tours were 4 hour long "tours" (street rides) where you have an instructor ride with you and talk to you via bike to bike communication--there were a few pull over stop and talk sessions too. When I did it there was only one instructor and 2 pupils in the 2 groups that went out that morning--so pretty personal "one on one" training.
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http://www.facebook.com/StayinSafe?ref=ts&sk=wall# (http://www.facebook.com/StayinSafe?ref=ts&sk=wall#)!/StayinSafe?sk=info
Here is a link to the stayinsafe facebook page
and their website.
http://www.stayinsafe.com (http://www.stayinsafe.com)
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Just as follow up--I have been in contact with Eric Trow and he has forwarded all my information to the Wisconsin division of the Stayinsafe folks......So I will have some actual numbers and whatever other information they provide in the next few days.
But he made it sound promising that it was likely. Of course it would still be up to Ray as organizers of the event if they want the added burden of more organization.
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Well we definetely to talk to Ray then! Please let me know when you get more info. too
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If you get the opportunity, definitely go for CSS; they teach you how to ride a motorcycle and be aware of your surroundings. 99% of what they teach is applicable to street riding.