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General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Mike Duluth on November 12, 2012, 01:28:47 PM

Title: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Mike Duluth on November 12, 2012, 01:28:47 PM
I know this has been covered before, but every season I learn something new about being a good street rider.
  At my age I'm finding out I'm not getting faster, I'm getting slower. So at this point I would like to become a better rider if that's possible at my age. What makes a good street rider, and why?
  I think this will make for a good off season topic. Plus what can it hurt to rehash what it is that makes a good rider.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: KGB on November 12, 2012, 01:36:58 PM
You bring up your getting slower and not faster...how does that equate with being a better rider?
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Vander on November 12, 2012, 01:38:48 PM
 :D
That's a big question, Mike!
Could I clarify a bit?

Would you consider the goal of a good rider to:

Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Mike Duluth on November 12, 2012, 01:41:45 PM
You bring up your getting slower and not faster...how does that equate with being a better rider?
It doesn't, I'm not sure being fast has anything to do with being a good rider.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: KGB on November 12, 2012, 01:49:50 PM
"Good rider" is subjective, racers might say street guys are nuts for navigating through gravel and wild life and street guys might think racers have a death wish and  adrenaline fueled speed junkies. Both may have excellent skills but may completely disregard the others. What is it in your style of riding that you wish to improve?
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Vander on November 12, 2012, 01:59:11 PM
I could share what I think makes a good rider:

Leave your inadequacy issues at home
If you have daddy-didn't-hug-me-enough (or too much) issues, seek therapy from a counselor, not a motorcycle.

Ride with muted confidence.
Be assertive, not aggressive

Ride with SMART gear
Be critical of ALL gear.  Study, research and experiment with fit/wear/ protective elements.  Just because it costs the most doesn't mean it's the best.

Understand and ACCEPT all of your vulnerabilities
Be introspective and critical of yourself.  Rectify what you can, and come to terms with what you can't.  Adjust your situation accordingly.


That's my short list.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Mike Duluth on November 12, 2012, 01:59:29 PM
I'm not comparing street and track here. In my opinion there as different as sport bikes and dirt bikes. I'm looking for opinions on what makes a good street rider and how that can make me a better rider.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Jvs on November 12, 2012, 02:49:54 PM
What it takes to be a good rider:

1) Stay out of the ditch but if you insist, aim for a soft landing.
2) Stay cool. Think clearly.
3) if your slow, your slow. End of story. No need to keep up at the front of the pack if this is your first ever group ride.
4) no your suspension settings and tire pressures were not the reason why we had to wait 5 minutes at the stop sign for you.
5) no one cares that you can do stand up wheelies
6) 0-60 times, Horsepower and top speeds are all irrelevant. Period.
7) older doesn't mean slower.
8) oh you spent 1500 on that new ohlins suspension? Lets ride, I'm willing to bet you'll still be slower than Vander (had to poke some fun buddy)
9) I would keep adding to the list but its time to punch out and go take my afternoon nap.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Mike Duluth on November 12, 2012, 03:09:23 PM
Maybe it's like Vander said, I might be throwing a large net here.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Jvs on November 12, 2012, 03:44:22 PM
Sorry my post with a little ADD lol. Boredom at work does crazy things to you.

 
Do some reading over the winter and spend some time online watching some instructional videos.

Sign up for a trackday/advanced riders course in the beginning of next season. Both the reading and Lloyd's track days did wonders for me in terms of riding.

There's a lot of different areas for growth it's just a matter of what specifically needs to be addressed. Yes very broad net.

Jeff

Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Tim... on November 12, 2012, 04:08:53 PM
Simple, risk management and common sense.  The application of which, not so simple.

I'm not comparing street and track here. In my opinion there as different as sport bikes and dirt bikes. I'm looking for opinions on what makes a good street rider and how that can make me a better rider.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Ray916MN on November 12, 2012, 04:43:24 PM
Over time I've become much more sensitive to how well or how poorly I'm riding and what works and doesn't work as well when riding. Riding well is a combination of a myriad of inputs and decisions and increasingly I think it is critical to develop more and more sensitivity to the feedback you get from the bike, your body, your mind, where you end up in a lane and what happens to you while riding to become a better rider and to ride well. When you pay attention to the feedback, the signs are everywhere of your successes and failures and paying attention to the feedback is essential to raising your riding standards and the level of your riding.

I notice more often when I have to exert extra mental or physical effort to make it do what I want/need it to do, versus when it does what I want/need effortlessly, when I do not end up on the roadway where I wanted to end up, when I fail to correctly anticipate something or fail to evaluate a situation as well as I could have. While many think the feedback they need to pay the most attention to is how fast they can go through a section of twisting road, for me, what is more important is how effortlessly and in control I can go through a section of twisting road. Figuring out how to exert less effort and achieve greater control while riding is what helps me ride better. Speed comes as a byproduct.

Once you learn to pay attention to the feedback, learning to be a good rider becomes easier as long as every time you get bad feedback, you use the feedback to figure out how to do things better.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Mike Duluth on November 12, 2012, 06:18:33 PM
That's a good one Ray, what sort of feedback are you talkin about, and what does the different feedback feel like.
   And Jeff your comment was great.

My hope is people will share what they have learned through there years of riding. There are some great riders in this group, and I for one would like to know how they do it.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: GUZZI JOHN on November 12, 2012, 08:16:44 PM
  Ray's reply was excellent! I'd ad a concept I try to follow-If you're familiar w the old Battlestar Galactica(w Lorne Greene) recall the Cylon robots that had a red eye which constantly scanned from side to side.  I try to keep that sort of environmental awareness while on the road. On the track there are corner crews watching out for oil,rocks,turtles or whatever so the racers can concentrate on their lines and competitors. On the back roads or in town it is all up to me. This has kept me alive for 50+ years of riding including 35 commuting to work. $.02 from this Old/Slow Fart. GJ ::)
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: carlson_mn on November 12, 2012, 11:23:59 PM
When do I feel like a good rider?  When I'm able to have as much fun as possible and still feel comfortable and safe. 

Having as much fun as possible would probably entail finding a road that is really twisty and leaning over far.  That's what I enjoy!

Oh and master throttle control in order to do wheelies while smiling at Jeff makes me feel good too.




Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Ray916MN on November 12, 2012, 11:26:18 PM
That's a good one Ray, what sort of feedback are you talkin about, and what does the different feedback feel like.
....

For example:

When turning, if my body position, peg weighting and throttle application are right the feeling is so light, I feel like I can take my hands off the bars and continue turning. When I don't get this light bar feel, I'm doing something wrong or at least could be doing something better. While body position and peg weighting can help achieve this feeling, a critical component is throttle control and being able to get on the throttle at the right time to stabilize the bike in preparation for applying more throttle to help lift the bike from leaned over turning, instead of or in addition to using bar pressure to lift the bike. The same goes for dropping the throttle a bit to help countersteering the bike initiate a turn.

The less bar pressure I need or feel when turning or changing directions the better. The less front end compression or extension I feel when turning or changing directions the better. The less I need to change or adjust my line in a turn or series of turns the better. Nothing should ever feel abrupt, frightening, or surprising. The objective is to ride the bike and feel totally stable on it just sitting on it while riding it. Whenever you have to grip or hold onto the bike to feel stable on the bike, there is something you could be doing better. Having to grab or hold on to a bike to feel stable is a by product of a rider having done something to make the bike unstable.


Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Tim... on November 12, 2012, 11:52:50 PM
tl;dr x 2
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Greg on November 13, 2012, 10:49:40 AM
Well, this thread sure could become a minefield.  :P

These are only my opinions. Reasonable people can disagree with all or parts of this response.

*A Good Rider*

1. Has ridden for several years. This number is subjective of course, but to my way of thinking, this rider must have ridden for at least 4 or 5 years.

2. Given that the average motorcyclist in Minnesota rides about 3k a year, I'd say this rider should ride 5k or more a year. Riding 1k miles a year for 20 years does not make you a good motorcyclist, IMO.

3. This rider has ridden several different styles of motorcycles. This isn't to say that someone who has ridden one motorcycle 60k miles in 6 years isn't a good motorcyclist, I just feel riding different styles of bikes adds to your skills resume. This also doesn't mean they need to own several different bikes at a given time, just different bikes over the lifespan of riding.
 
4. This rider has ridden in several different states and geographies.

5. This rider has the ability to ride a 500 mile day without fussing too much. This doesn't mean they had to enjoy that 500 miles though.  :)

6. This rider has ridden when it's below 40º and over 95º. This rider can comfortably ride in the rain, but doesn't have to like it  ::)

7. This rider can carry a passenger with confidence. 

8. This rider wears proper gear 95% of the time they ride.

9. This rider very rarely has an accident. If a rider has more than 2 biggies in their riding life, they are doing something incorrectly. IMO.

10. This rider has taken at least one "loaded-touring" trip for more than a couple days.

11. This rider has the wherewithal to know where & when different riding behaviors are appropriate. I do not cast aspersions on a rider for cracking the throttle (even to triple digits) once in a while, but they must have the maturity to know when & where it's less inappropriate to do so.

12. This rider has the respect of many of their peers.


More thoughts might be added later .....


Greg


Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Mike Duluth on November 13, 2012, 11:33:51 AM
I can see this is coming in a few different directions, and that's great. Ray has a technical approach and Geg is more about experience. I put on about 20k this year (best ever) and rode just about every kind of motorcycle there is, so I should qualify in Gegs post. With Rays post, because of what I do for a living I probably am pretty in tune with how a bike works. Now on a good day I would have trouble keeping up with either one of you. So now my question is how much does natural tallent have to do with how well you ride, and can you be tought tallent? Or is it, you either have it or you don't.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: vince on November 13, 2012, 12:30:57 PM
Dam it Greg. I have crashed 3 times. And all 3 times I had to take the bus. I sure hope there isn't one more in me.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Greg on November 13, 2012, 12:44:27 PM
Dam it Greg. I have crashed 3 times. And all 3 times I had to take the bus. I sure hope there isn't one more in me.

"These are only my opinions. Reasonable people can disagree with all or parts of this response."   :)
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: gdawgs on November 14, 2012, 08:51:56 AM
I don't always like to over think things.  as I have had less time to ride this year due to kids, i found myself not thinking about the skills as much this year and just enjoying the wind buzzing around my helment, the visual sense of connecting with the land I am riding through, and lastly the addrennaline that occurs just before i lean forward to position my body and drop two gears to attack the next corner.........with no other goals in mind. 

there is a time and place for everything.........including learning/improving and also "not learning' and 'not improving". 

great ideas thrown out there so far. 
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Deplorable, thank you! on November 15, 2012, 12:46:52 PM

Landmine question for certain, and so subjective to ones perception....

-A good rider rarely can't hold their line in a corner, and even rarer yet crosses the centerline.
-A good rider has years of experience and practice. (not simply just years of riding)
-A good rider never uses the road as a racetrack (using all the road edge to edge)
-A good rider is smooth with throttle, brake and all controls
-A good rider knows how to be a good follower and a good leader (doesn't necessarily mean you have to do either or like them....you can ride solo all the time and be a good rider)
-A good rider works on their skills and thinks about how they ride and "what if" and "where am I looking", "how is my line", "Is my head in this or am I riding like crap today". I don't mean all the time for actually working on your skills, but enough of the time to be very adept and proficient with all of them. Enough so you recognize when you are having an "off" day or are riding too near your limit, or the limits of the conditions present. Enough so you can honestly access any and all situations and make the right choice at least 95% of the time (not simply get lucky 1/2 the time...yes, "shit" can happen even to the best of riders, but it should be able to be avoided the vast majority of times...Deer seems to be a prime example)
-A good rider doesn't need to go trip digits to have fun and enjoy the ride. IMO there are scant few places where this is even remotely safe...
-A good rider is aware of public perception and how that affects all riders and doesn't run around with their loud ass exhaust or strafing traffic, pissing off Joe public.
-A good rider wears all the gear at least a very high percentage of the time. A helmet should be on all the time.
-A good rider is responsible and carries insurance, rides appropriately and understands following distances and passing and so much more
-A good rider checks their equipment regularly too, and if they can't service it properly themselves has it done so their machine is working top notch to give them the best chance of avoidance/survival etc in the event of something going wrong (deer, another idiot biker, car, truck, dog, pheasant, field dirt from a tractor, sand, pedestrian, oil slick or whatever)
-A good rider, well they don't brag about bald tires, trip digits, running the road edge to edge or make statements approving of such behavior.
-A good rider pulls over when the police happen upon them and don't flee (half heartedly or full on ~click it down and WOT-regardless of why)..because "everyone" speeds and it is only a matter of timing as to whether you get caught or not. Of course how much and where you speed also dictates how much they may want to stop you.
-A good rider at some point in time seeks out ways to improve their riding skills and then learns to implement them.(via riding schools, books, internet, seeking help from what they percieve as better riders etc...)
-A good rider understands you can not get to be a good rider without knowing what and being proficient at the skills that make one a "good" rider.
-A good rider is in relatively good physical shape
-A good rider is in good mental shape (or you should stay home)
-A good rider blames themself when something goes wrong.....as 99.9% of the time it is their fault


Conversely;


-Asking questions does not make one a good rider
-Knowing the answers does not make one a good rider
-Doing trackdays does not make one a good rider
-Being a former racer does not make one a good rider
-Riding "slow" does not make one a good rider
-Riding "fast" does not make one a good rider
-Never having crashed does not make one a good rider
-Never have gotten a ticket does not make one a good rider
-Riding for 5 years, or 25 years does not make one a good rider
-Dragging a knee does not make one a good rider
-Being able to ride from here to Colorado in a day does not make one a good rider
-What bike you ride or accessories installed does not make you a good rider
-Doing wheelies or stoppies does not make one a good rider
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Mike Duluth on November 15, 2012, 01:53:14 PM
That's good stuff Lloyd, I was hoping you would chime in.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Tim... on November 15, 2012, 05:13:41 PM
Nicely done Lloyd!  Particularly your point that is 5th from the bottom on both lists.

Tim
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Elk on November 20, 2012, 10:47:32 PM
Excellent stuff, Lloyd.  A great deal of work went into your post.  Well done.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: ARS on November 28, 2012, 10:16:33 PM
”Hi, my name is Bill and I am not a good rider” (“Hi Bill”).
 
The first step is accepting the FACT that you don’t know everything about riding.

The second step in becoming a good rider is to ask the big question, “What does it take to be a good rider?”.
Steps 3 through 12 . . . I’ll defer to the previous posts, because honestly I don’t know. . . I am not an expert.  I’ve ridden with faster, smoother and safer riders.  I’ve had fun and I’ve crapped my pants! (you’ll know when you get that age where you can’t trust a fart).

Our motorcycle endorsement is only a license to learn.

Stay safe, but keep pushing the envelope.
Title: Re: What it takes to be a good rider.
Post by: Chris on December 03, 2012, 07:21:35 PM
nice post Lloyd