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General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Ray916MN on December 08, 2011, 08:49:24 AM
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Over this past year there have been a number of posts with safety related content and we certainly have allot of riders with allot of riding experience as well as experience being safety instructors.
I was thinking about comments like one Ian made about "riding your own ride" not being well defined,as well as discussions of following distance, and thinking it might make sense to create a sub forum solely for these discussions, with the hope that discussions might be distilled into short informative posts which could be stickied to the top of the forum to serve as references for the forum on topics. Properly done, this might help us create a resource for the riding community and help us avoid the sometimes emotional unproductive rehashing of topics.
What does everyone think? Good idea, bad idea, who cares? What topics would people think need to be covered? Is focusing this closely on the topic, asking for Internet drama or a way to minimize it?
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What does everyone think? Good idea, bad idea, who cares? What topics would people think need to be covered? Is focusing this closely on the topic, asking for Internet drama or a way to minimize it?
Good idea, and I think it's a way to minimize drama. Perhaps adding a "track" forum is an idea as well.
As a footnote, I'd like to add this. When I read a post, I see the author's face. When I'm then standing in front of that author, I remember the posts they have written. That's something I feel all of us need to remember. One can not separate themselves from their posts. You are your posts.
Greg not Steve
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What does everyone think? Good idea, bad idea, who cares? What topics would people think need to be covered? Is focusing this closely on the topic, asking for Internet drama or a way to minimize it?
Good idea, and I think it's a way to minimize drama. Perhaps adding a "track" forum is an idea as well.
As a footnote, I'd like to add this. When I read a post, I see the author's face. When I'm then standing in front of that author, I remember the posts they have written. That's something I feel all of us need to remember. One can not separate themselves from their posts. You are your posts.
Greg not Steve
Is this some subtle way of saying we're all dumbs as posts? ;D
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I like the idea. I suggest you narrowly define each topic and lock them when you think the subject has been well address. I say that not to quiet comment or restrict discussion, but because it will be much more likely that readers will read a whole thread and get the important points before having to sift throug later posts where the thread devolves or repeats itself. For example, the PACE thread would not teed to be open for 25 pages of comments.
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If you just take the pertinent posts from existing threads and compile them into sub categories.....or---you may have to severely edit new threads to just "cut to the point"---of course then you may as well just type what you think and damn anyone elses opinion, because essentially all you are doing is, posting the information you want conveyed.
I don't see how a thread started about anything safety won't have posts in it muddled with information that some are going to take offense to-and typically you need good clear cut examples to actually make the point properly...examples many can actually relate to-whether it is someone they ride with regularly so they know what the pace is, or video that actually shows speed etc in an environment everyone has been to. (ie...some road we frequently travel)---
Everyone is going to have their own idea on pretty much any topic, and there are always going to be people that refuse to see points the same way. If you edit posts or threads or "lock down" then you essentially aren't letting everyone have an equal voice, so again you may as well just post up what you want and damn anyone elses ideals or opinions.
This may actually work lots better-have a sub forum "safety" or whatever name you want to have it.
Then each individual can start their own thread and voice their own viewpoints. Of course some will comment in-but if you have them locked, likely there will be lots of individual threads commenting on other threads. Perhaps after some trial and error it would get better, perhaps it would just go the way all the threads go?
I don't think there is a right answer---or an easy one---or one that everyone will agree with (just like everything else in life) So you may as well just put up the sub forum and see what happens?
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Great idea Ray, especially pulling together a distilled version. The heart of the message in some of these threads can be drowned out by the shenanigans sometimes.
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How about we vote what to name it... I vote "How not to suck when riding a motorcycle"
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I like the idea. I suggest you narrowly define each topic and lock them when you think the subject has been well address. I say that not to quiet comment or restrict discussion, but because it will be much more likely that readers will read a whole thread and get the important points before having to sift throug later posts where the thread devolves or repeats itself. For example, the PACE thread would not teed to be open for 25 pages of comments.
What I have in mind is either someone posting a short simple strawman for a sticky on a topic. Everybody comments. From the comments a trial sticky gets posted as a sticky, and everyone comments, and then a "final" sticky is made. The thread used for comment is never locked, so people can if they like see all the comments and discussion that went into creating the sticky and add their own if they feel something was missed. If something indeed was missed, then the sticky could be edited. No comments or responses would be allowed in the sticky itself and the sticky would have a link in it to the thread with comments on the sticky.
I think the Pace thread would simply be the Pace article posted and a link to thread discussing the Pace. Individual elements of the Pace article, such as not using your brakes could be singled out for their own sticky, so that comments around this could be focused on.
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I like the idea. I suggest you narrowly define each topic and lock them when you think the subject has been well address. I say that not to quiet comment or restrict discussion, but because it will be much more likely that readers will read a whole thread and get the important points before having to sift throug later posts where the thread devolves or repeats itself. For example, the PACE thread would not teed to be open for 25 pages of comments.
I like the idea.
I don't like the locking it, if you don't want to read it don't new idea's and thoughts come up all the time and with that old topics can\should be rehashed.
The only other issue will be people with to thin of skin, the disclaimer needs to be if you post here you will be called names and your ideas will be shredded, deal with it.
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HMMMMMMM - something get deleted? Seems odd that Mike posted 3 times 15-20 minutes apart. And now those posts are gone?
I checked the URL, I though perhaps I had landed at ZG. This is particularly ;D since I was proposing locking threads before they devolved :-X
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I'm guessing Mike deleted his posts.
BTW I'm not opposed to the ZG deletion policy. It works to keep discourse civil. I'm no fan of the wild west atmoshere over at MNSBR. It seems even the most odious postings are not deleted.
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Has there been a thread on this forum worthy of a sticky?
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There are topics worthy of sticky--it appears Rays intention is to link the thread to the stickied topic........I am not sure I understand what the intention is for how the original sticky will take place?
I understand what Ray is saying about just copying and pasting the "pace" article-then linking to a thread on the discussion of same......but how and who is writing the sticky on following distances? or any other subject that is deemed worthy of being "sticky".
Perhaps if I understood what is meant by a "strawman" maybe that would shed some light? Because I think that means something like a fall guy or liar...who wants to be that guy??? Furthermore how does that help or start a topic?
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There are topics worthy of sticky--it appears Rays intention is to link the thread to the stickied topic........I am not sure I understand what the intention is for how the original sticky will take place?
I understand what Ray is saying about just copying and pasting the "pace" article-then linking to a thread on the discussion of same......but how and who is writing the sticky on following distances? or any other subject that is deemed worthy of being "sticky".
Perhaps if I understood what is meant by a "strawman" maybe that would shed some light? Because I think that means something like a fall guy or liar...who wants to be that guy??? Furthermore how does that help or start a topic?
A strawman is a very rough draft. It is called a strawman because it is a draft which is intended to be beaten up. The idea is have a draft, have the draft rewritten and rewritten. If you've ever look at Wikipedia, this is how the entries get created. The content that makes the final needs to be factually supported or linked to external references to have validity and/or agreed upon by the majority.
So for example, with respect to following distance 2 seconds (MSF) might be cited as the minimum following distance recommended. Reaction times from linked braking studies might be used in conjunction with following distances to calculate how much "safety margin" there is in a 2 second following distance.
If additional information is to be added, it must be supported by a reference or facts or logical derivation (ie. math). No my experience, or I once read stuff. To be used in the sticky, what was read needs to be specifically referenced so it can be read by others, If it is specifically referenced it can be summarized to ad to the sticky.
Some topics are not going to lend themselves to this type of academic treatment, for example "riding your own ride". To tackle something like this, the sticky might be "how you know you're not riding your own ride" and another might be "how you know you're riding your own ride". People propose for stuff to be on the list and if a significant majority agree, then it gets put on the list.
In general though, the idea is to try to use a Wikipedia like approach. Anyone who is interested can read more about Wikipedia here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia) . Unfortunately I will not be implementing a Wiki to do this, so we would be heavily reliant on civil and open discourse. Doubly unfortunately, the initial discourse in this thread does not give me much hope for our forum being able to do this.
For example, the definition of obdurate from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obdurate (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obdurate) is "unmoved by persuasion, pity, or tender feelings; stubborn; unyielding." . This characteristic is not conducive to the type of collaborative effort that it takes to do a Wiki. Of course, that's only my opinion and I am open to persuasion.
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I think you underestimate the group.
My screen name does not represent how I view myself, rather it is a mocking of those who have felt the need to call me 3 very similar names in the past 3 months----all obviously were looked up in the dictionary, since they are all on the same page of the dictionary and since I don't view these words as words used in everyday language. So if you want to pick out my name as a reference for a reason you have no hope........
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I was pronouncing it wrong, thanks for the link
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and i didn't know what it meant, so "thanks" from me as well.
a.s.
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http://www.alivetoride.com/motorcycle_riding_tips_reaction_time (http://www.alivetoride.com/motorcycle_riding_tips_reaction_time)
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/reactiontime.html (http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/reactiontime.html)
So are these something useful to get the reaction/following distance started?
Or do I misunderstand the concept?
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Death don't come much quicker than that.
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I think you underestimate the group.
My screen name does not represent how I view myself, rather it is a mocking of those who have felt the need to call me 3 very similar names in the past 3 months----all obviously were looked up in the dictionary, since they are all on the same page of the dictionary and since I don't view these words as words used in everyday language. So if you want to pick out my name as a reference for a reason you have no hope........
The willingness and intent to mock makes me even less confident that open collaboration is possible.
Definition: to attack or treat with ridicule, contempt, or derision. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mock (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mock)
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[url]http://www.alivetoride.com/motorcycle_riding_tips_reaction_time[/url] ([url]http://www.alivetoride.com/motorcycle_riding_tips_reaction_time[/url])
[url]http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/reactiontime.html[/url] ([url]http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/reactiontime.html[/url])
So are these something useful to get the reaction/following distance started?
Or do I misunderstand the concept?
The first article being in metric is a drawback, but the 2nd one was awesome, in my opinion.
a.s.
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Alright, back on topic. What are some possible topics that might make a sticky? The Wikipedia style format could make it tough having to actually cite credible data/studies for the content. How would you be able to qualify/quantify something like the importance of vision/looking up the road. Would it be sufficient to reference something like a well respected resource (i.e. Twist of the Wrist etc)?
Good safety topics:
-Gear
-Vision
-The PACE - Break this up into sub-topics
-Bike maintenance
-Deer/seasonal dangers?
-Effective braking
What else?
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Following distance
Passing (group scenario mostly)
Speed (cornering or otherwise)
Skills practicing (learning)
Riding within your own limits (knowing your own limits mentally and physically)
oops, a little slow on the addition
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What "Ride your own ride" is and how to know if you are pushing too hard.
I liked how Pat Hahn looked at having a "strategy" before riding. Perhaps we could ask him to guest write a post on that?
Ways to improve your skill-related safety margin (classes, parking lots, trackdays, racing, etc.) - Lloyd's "Skills practice"
And "How to talk to a fellow rider when you spot a potential problem"
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One of the biggest things that I have had a problem with is brain freeze. Not the kind from eating ice cream too fast, but when crap starts to go wrong and you stop doing all the right things and and your brain locks up. As I get older I find it harder to keep my eye on the ball when crap starts to go wrong. I think most of you know what I'm talking about because I hear others say, I just straitened up and rode right of the road, or I don't remember anything just before the crash. Is there any info out there about why this happens and if there is anything you can do about it?
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One of the biggest things that I have had a problem with is brain freeze. Not the kind from eating ice cream too fast, but when crap starts to go wrong and you stop doing all the right things and and your brain locks up. As I get older I find it harder to keep my eye on the ball when crap starts to go wrong. I think most of you know what I'm talking about because I hear others say, I just straitened up and rode right of the road, or I don't remember anything just before the crash. Is there any info out there about why this happens and if there is anything you can do about it?
Geritol
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One of the biggest things that I have had a problem with is brain freeze. Not the kind from eating ice cream too fast, but when crap starts to go wrong and you stop doing all the right things and and your brain locks up. As I get older I find it harder to keep my eye on the ball when crap starts to go wrong. I think most of you know what I'm talking about because I hear others say, I just straitened up and rode right of the road, or I don't remember anything just before the crash. Is there any info out there about why this happens and if there is anything you can do about it?
I would imagine part of this is due to the tendency to put more time into racing and other sensory-ladened activities that exercised you reflexes in your younger days. Family, work and other activities sort of put a crimp on these activities as we age (and become more responsible. :) ) Consequently I think we lose our edge as we get "comfy in our recliners."
I share the same fear as you. As the deer incidents came rolling in this season, I found myself wondering if I could handle these situations without completely panic locking brakes. I have yet to develop a strategy, beyond just slowing down to give me time to think. I am considering replacing my DL1000 with a smaller bike to do more DCTC weekends to restore some reflex. Dunno if that's the answer, not sure what else to do.
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Without getting too deep into one of the sugested topic areas, I'll share my way to avoid brain freeze. I sometimes find that I am daydreaming or thinking of my day or having an imaginary argument in my head. When I notice that is happening, I start to do an energetic, funny color commentary (out loud if necessary) about what I am seeing and what I would do if something comes up and that seems to get me back into the part of my brain that has the panic braking training and other skills. You can actually practice this (and many other riding skills) while driving in the car. I find when I do this, I often then drift into a "zone" of paying full attention. I have also had the realization while doing this that I was kidding myself about deploying a skill I hadn't practiced recently and it incented me to go to the Zoo (my favorite practice ground).
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I suppose I'm just wishing for a solution to getting older. I crashed pretty bad a couple of years ago and can't seem to get it back for some reason. Last season was a lot better but still find myself goin stiff from time to time. One time last summer I came into a corner pretty hot and I had another rider on me pretty tight, checked my mirror to see where he was and went wide just like that. Normally I would have just droppped the bike back into my line, but instead I went with just keeping the bike on the road. If there would have been a car comin I would have been fkd. I had plenty of margin to get back where I belonged but couldn't make myself do it. Nothin happened but still pretty scary. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that has this problem.
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Ha mike now that u mention it, I remember i had that same exact thing happen when we rode through jay Cooke this summer. The corner got real tight and as soon as i lost focus, i panicked as ended up going real wide almost off the road.
As ur signature says: push harder, I understand this in the sense that we don't need to ride harder on the street but push harder coming through this corners and 9 times out of 10 the bike will pull you through. Good interpretation? :)
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That is exactly why I have push harder plastered all over my stuff. It is there to remind me to push harder on the inside bar. I wish it was that easy.
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Don't we all.
As the "New guy" to riding, I'll just stop talking now though and sit back and listen to what you experienced guys have to say :)
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"I suppose I'm just wishing for a solution to getting older."
Aren't we all...LOL
You can stop aging, unfortunately that comes at the price of stopping living as well.
Health and exercise is about the only way to delay it, IMO (physical health, mental health)