Look here!

I love it....LOL

I also love the copy cat post of let the thread die becasue it is just repeating what others said already....LOL

Thanks for my brief bit of amusement today, now go back to your off topic oil change talk, tv shows and celeb parties and what have you---




PKPK, while you can disagree with my accessment, it doesn't change my mind or opinion or what I see regularly.

I too enjoy Riding with Brent and find it refreshing and fun, the few times I have ridden with you I have enjoyed it as well---so I am not calling you guys out as the "slow" group. And I have led plenty of "slow" groups and some of those people would surely say it was still too fast. So "SLOW" or "FAST" it all about perception.

Let me differentiate something for you guys---rides I have been on that we have had multiple leaders and called out a "fast" group and a "slow" group or whatever, the reality is all the groups are riding about the same pace(probably within 5 mph of each other)....only once can I recall a group actually having a significant speed differential from the other groups and that was one of the Slimey Crud rides last year and a bunch of zg/ta people showed up and Vince "led" them around at the kind of speed they tend to ride 100+ if you get my drift..We Medium group I led (pace riding about 70) still passed them before the first gas stop and they never caught up until Leland about 45 minutes after my "medium" group was already their and the "slow" group (also pace riding about 70) was already there as well.

Sorry Vince had to make my point.

Well, the next time your are glancing down a route sheet doing 70mph and a deer or car crosses your path, let me know how that works out. 

What is the point of riding in a group, just to "ride your own ride"; have breakfast then ice-cream, but other than that, you are on your own - here is a route sheet.  Some of the routes can be quite complicated, and unless you are familiar with the roads, you could be pulling over every 15 minutes (riding your own ride) to read your route sheet along with a map, a compass and a nice cheese-head who will give you directions.  Sign me up for that day of riding bliss.

Ride "organizers" is a fallacy, why not organize leaders for a slow, medium and fast pace?  I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups. 

Absolutely nobody is disputing the fact that everytime your eyes are off the road for anything, including looking at a route sheet or GPS there is inherent danger involved and you significantly increase your risk of danger danger that time!
 So let me make this comparison, my complex routes would have a person potentially looking down for some 2 seconds each time and having to do so perhaps 70 times on my 450-550 mile routes.....So for 2 minutes and 20 seconds you are riding "blind" or dangerously or wrecklessly or...........Certainly not a good thing, but you do have the option to pull over and study the route sheet. (This assumes you can't remember any of the turns past the next one and don't know the roads at all--completely a noob in riding where we ride)
-Option 2, the same 450-550 mile ride, and you are riding over your head to stay with the group (ie...100+ on the straights, panic braking into the turns in hopes of staying within sight) Well that would seem to me to be about 9-12 hours of riding dangerously or wrecklessly or........Certainly not a good thing (IMO far worse scenario), and you don't even have the option of pulling over to look at a route sheet to meet the group at the stop or anywhere, and some would not even know how to get home from anywhere they may pull over.

Your second paragraph is a bit of an exaggeration, but if that happens atleast you have the route sheet to make your merry way safely at YOUR pace.

Finally your comment about the organizers and setting up a slow, medium and fast paced group----well that takes volunteers, and ones who are willing to "ruin" their day by chapporoning around people unwilling to take responsibility of their own riding and lead themselves. Furthermore you have never showed up and led a group on any ride I have ever been on, and it is the vast majority of them, so who are you fooling with your statement  "I'll sign up to lead any one of those groups."  Certainly not me.

Lets just say a typical ride has 10 people on it, and we try to break it into slow, med, fast.....
 To start you need the most skilled riders to "lead" because clearly the majority won't or are incapable of, or like you feel the routes are too challenging and too complex making them too dangerous. So now you have 3 riders out of 10 that should be and normally would be in the "fast" group having to decide who is going to be the babysitters and not get the chance to ride how they want to...(Gee you wonder why it is so hard to get volunteers to lead)

Well almost nobody wants to be in the "slow" group (ego, stigma or any number of reasons) so you have one of the most skilled riders taking 1 or 2 people on a ride and stopping and waiting and riding "slowly" and warning them of dangers in every turn and really just giving a guided babysitting tour....sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm !)
 Then you only have 7 riders left, but lets 2 want to go "fast" so another leader takes these 2 on a "fast" pace, so this leader is riding how they want presumably as are the 2 followers, but the leader still has to keep them together and make sure he isn't too fast, isn't too slow, stops for fuel often enough, doesn't have to make too many U turns or deviate too far of course.....essentially still totally giving a babysitting tour ride just at a "fast" pace.............sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm !)
So now you have a group of 4 riders bringing up the "medium" paced group, so I could list off all the same shit, it is simply at a little "medium" pace............sounds like a great time to me (sarcasm)

So while all this sounds extremely negative and no fun. The reality of how rides are run is not this way. Typically we always end up waiting for "slow" people, the leaders watch their mirrors and ride according to the pace of the group, the leaders do make provisions for the members in the group (even to their own fun detriment)........so yeah I say again, this sounds like a ton of fun for leaders, (sarcasm) you say you will lead any group anytime, hey show up for a ride and you can ! You would be in the minority of attendees who are capable or willing to lead a group.
 Finally, most of the rides where most of the people attending are of a same or similar skill set or same or similar speed ability or atleast are all capapble of riding at the "pace" we run on the roads we ride and if need be could find their way home or to the next stop via a route sheet or otherwise. Well that is how most of the rides go, because most of the rides have very familiar faces showing up to them.

I understand a "need" for some initiation of "new" riders to the group to see who they fit in with and to get aquainted with how rides are run and at what pace...( Oh wait I did 3 , get to know mn-msta rides last year and 2 this year, where I forced people to lead and navigate and ride at their won pace...slow or med or fast and the group followed them and then someone else led....The feedback I got from those who participated was all good--but it was a huge investment of my time--and tires and fuel---to do this)
-But some sort of rating system, well the shoe just doesn't fit anyone no matter how complex you make it.
I have an idea, show up for a "group" ride prepared to ride by yourself and self navigate and be responsible for yourself, if your pace of the day meshes with someone elses great, if not-you have a route and fantastic roads to ride on. Talk to people at the beginning of the ride (which means showing up atleast 1/2 hour early!) Have your bike prepared to go all day, be mentally and physically prepared to ride all day...You know common sense things you should know and expect. (the couple dozen mn-msta members I ride with regularly have no issues with any of these things, why should anyone else?)

LAstly, lastly---myself and the handful of members who routinely put on rides and "lead" are not here for everyone else to use and take advantage of our route making skills, our abilities to lead, our knowledge of the roads, and our abilitly to keep the "followers" relatively safe. We (or atleast me) are here for the joy of riding and to be able to do it with similarly interested and skilled riders....when the stress level or aggrevation level exceeds the fun level it is no longer appealing, and since so many realy so heavily on us "leaders" you damn sure better keep us around and enjoying it, or you will find yourself without the ability to tag along and "follow". This isn't a threat it is a reality, look how many former leaders never or rarely post up any rides any longer.

Geez, I guess since this is MN-MSTA I figured you were talking about us.

I couldn't give a shit less about mnsbr official rides or not, or any of those other forums.

So I guess I better read better, I saw XXXXX and thought you were saying mn-msta. sorry for the misinterpretation

"Couple things I don't get from some of the comments in this post and in other posts over the course of a year. If the goal is that everyone follows a route sheet and rides their own pace, then is there a need for a "leader" and "followers"?"

-Because far too many take for granted they will be paraded around by a "leader".

-Because far too many are incapable of following a route sheet while they ride, some for the logic and reasoning Tim states.

-Because part of the learning process of the organization , the rides, the roads and how to read and ride at the same time is being paraded around while you establish these skills (hopefully you are not just "following the leader" you are actually looking at the route sheet and knowing when and where to expect the next turns, that you are learning some of the regularly routed roads etc...so you someday do not require a leader to parade you around.

"when I put together a ride I now use the term "organizer"."
-Yes Greg we have all seen your recent, "organizing not leading" ride posts...lol

"So if I posted up a ride, gave out route sheets and told everyone to ride their own ride"
-Half the problem there is that most people don't understand what "ride your own ride" means.     
 -They don't have the necessary skills to actually know there true riding limitations and then have enough self control to actually stay within those limits.
Most of this is because they have never learned proper riding skills and techniques, because it "isn't required". The vast majority of riders I see, stopped learning as soon as they figured out how to  twist the throttle and squeeze the brake. They have no understanding how to turn or steer or how body position affects it all, .....................and I could go on for hours, days, weeks, months......

Of course these are only my opinions and don't reflect what anyone or any organizational leaders may feel , see or say.

And while a route sheet certainly does take your eyes off the road more than anyone would desire (especially if you didn't write it or it is overly complicated) they are necessary (or a talking GPS) in order for most of the ride participants to get from point A to point B and be "self sufficient" in there own navigating and oace etc....Otherwise they do have to "follow the leader" and ride at the leaders pace or be left behind....

 I have had both Wills and Cliffs repair worse rims than that and even with shipping both ways it has cost less than $120.00. I think you would be hard pressed to find a "used" wheel you could trust for that kind of money. I know anytime I have installed a used wheel for somebody I have insisted on installing new bearings-so there goes atleast $25.00 right there. You just don't know what you are getting from somebody off the internet....local or thousands of miles away. Call me a skeptic, reality is too many don't take of thier shit and if you are going to trust it and put your life in the hands of an unknown.....not me-

I already have everyones phone numbers, email addresses etc in my phone....of course that doesn't insure I will get ahold of their "significant other" since many only have listed a cell number-which they likely will have on them already.  :-)

But yes it is a good idea to have information for just such a case of emergency.

whether it is done on a need to have basis or a general "here is everyones contact information" type of deal.....No input--but I get too much spam already both email and phone-so I would prefer it was more private although all my information is all over everywhere already

"Continental Road Attacks- While traction dry or wet has been better than the 021's, the mileage is a little less than 021's-so I really would call these more of a sport tire than a sport touring tire. 2 liter bike guys both saw under 3500 miles on the rear, but they were very happy with the traction and feel of the tire. These guys were lax on their air pressure regulation as well,  One came in with 30 in the front and 31 in the rear. so... I have these on a few BMW's also and they are seeing closer to 6000 miles. I have seen these run on 600cc sportbikes and go nearly 8000 miles (Road Attack rear, sport attack front combo) My own experience with sport attacks on both ends on my own bike are in that 7 tire review thread."

Off my web page---
The St1100 guy who was running BT021's and seeing only about 4500-5000 switched to the road attacks and was seeing about 7000, the same he now got out of a set of road attack II

So unless you really run them hard I doubt you'd see under 5000 miles

49-15 has never equalled 25....you must have some new way of doing math??

$34.00 would be the correct answer for the math challenged

Just had to do it, you made it too easy...LOL

(says with a grin, a smirk, and says in sarcasm all in fun---just so you don't get it confused with when I am actually being an asshole...this time it is just for fun)

I think that is the program Ray also uses.