mn-msta.com
General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Ray916MN on March 17, 2012, 05:05:14 PM
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Hopefully this post will help folks figure out whether a ride posted on the forum will be appropriate for them to join.
This forum places the onus on riders to be responsible for making sure they are prepared and capable of joining a ride posted on the forum. Over a decade of running group rides, the forum believes that first and foremost ride safety is the responsibility of each rider on a ride, not the group, and not the ride organizer or a ride leader. The default assumption of folks in this forum is if you have an accident is that it was your fault.
Everyone is expected to ride their own ride. This means if people are riding faster or slower than you want to, that's fine. This means you should not follow with a sub 2 second gap so you can follow the line of the rider in front you. No one is expected to keep up. Everyone is expected to have a way of carrying a route sheet and to be capable of using a route sheet to self navigate the ride route. To ride your own ride you should not be totally reliant on keeping up with other riders to ride the ride route.
We ride the Pace (click here to read about it (http://mn-msta.com/index.php/page,10.html)). Hitting triple digits and using heavy braking on rides demonstrate a lack of skill and a good street riding attitude.
The preceding is the default expectation for rides on the forum. Deviations from this default will usually be noted by the organizer of a ride in their ride post. If you have a question about a specific ride, post it to the ride posting. For more on our rides, please read our MSTA Ride Guide - Read Before Doing an MSTA Ride. (http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,6.0.html)
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Perhaps it should be phrased as whether you SHOULD instead of whether you CAN?
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As a beginner rider I don't attend too many group rides unless they specifically say they are for beginners or I've talked to the ride organizer. For ex. Yesterdays ride said clearly it was not for beginners but I was able to ride 2 up and had a blast ;D
I guess agree more with Lloyd that whether or not you SHOULD go is something to consider. I am capable of riding my own ride and it doesn't bother me when people pass me and the gap grows. I have self discipline to not push myself to keep up and wind up crashing. I also know how to navigate and use route sheets. I may not be good with directions, but I'm also a female so i don't mind pulling over to ask, lol. As I'm learning to ride I am also familiar with "the pace" since I'm learning from the best.... Sexy ex-racers ;) So by definition I would be capable of joining group rides but I don't feel that I should. I think one of two things would happen, either the group would wind waiting on me a lot or they would get so far ahead I would be on my own anyways. Of course this is just my opinion and personal experiences but if someone else is a new rider I don't necessarily think most group rides will cater to beginners.
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Jackass, idiot, douchebag, tool, tom dick, and this is just one post. Is this all necessary to make a point? I would think that most people would be more likely to listen to someone who isn't calling everyone names all the time. Just my opinion.
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Everyone knows I don't mince words and am more than willing to tell it just as I see it.
Anyone who doesn't want to read my posts.....block me please---you do have that option !!!
You should appreciate my complete honesty. (even if you don't like the way I phrase it)As allways I think you have some good ideas, just think you would be taken more serious if you wouldn't be so offensive
People I do like will know I like them, people I don't will clearly know I don't. I won't apologize for that.
As allways I think you have some good ideas, just that people might take you more serious if you were not so offensive all the time.
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Your ideas will do way more good if you came across a little more rational. You sometime sound like an angry person and it doesn't get your points across very well to the people who could use some of your good advice.
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And some people can stick to the 10 over pace (for the majority of the ride atleast). Ask ride alot or Matt, the few rides I've led we've kept a sane Pace and had no crashes tickets or close calls. Though sure its hard to post real speeds on an online forum for a ride your gonna lead (for obvious reasons) people need to know what there really gonna expect when it comes time for the ride. People can ride whatever way they want but if they show up at a ride posted at such and such pace for so and so miles, that needs to be maintained or things turn bad real quick
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Only problem I see with two different groups is opinions as to who would belong in each group and who would make that decision because you know there will be persons who believe in thier own minds that they belong in one group but in actuality don't. And what do you do with newbies like myself or people new to the forum that you don't know thier riding style? I'm new to riding on my own but not new to riding and have seen a lot of what you're talking about so I totally understand where you are coming from but I don't know what the best solution is... as for group rides anyways.
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I think Ray answered the above questions/arguments in his original post.
Everyone is expected to ride their own ride. This means if people are riding faster or slower than you want to, that's fine. This means you should not follow with a sub 2 second gap so you can follow the line of the rider in front you. No one is expected to keep up. Everyone is expected to have a way of carrying a route sheet and to be capable of using a route sheet to self navigate the ride route. To ride your own ride you should not be totally reliant on keeping up with other riders to ride the ride route.
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There is no reason you can't split into more than one group on a group ride. We did it last weekend and everything worked out just fine. This is the second time that I rode with Ray that he has done this and it seems to work great.
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First and foremost the notion here is to ride your own ride.
This means whatever pace you feel comfortable with. This means someone like Hope should have no problems being on a ride. Of course since no one else may ride the same pace as her, she might end up riding alone, but there is no guarantee that there will always be someone on a ride who wants to ride at the same pace anyone wants to ride at. It also means that our rides should be fine for a bunch of new riders to show up and do the route as long as like Hope, they have the maturity and attitude to ride their own ride and can self navigate. At the other end of the spectrum a group of "fast" folks can also show up an do the ride. I think everyone should join our rides.
I don't think everyone should (yes, probably a better word choice than "can") join a ride, because many folks don't have the right attitude and/or are not capable of self navigating. The self proclaimed "fast", all too often may feel the leaders ride too slowly, but can''t seem to figure out how to self navigate, so they don't have to follow someone else. The self proclaimed "slow", worry about holding everyone up, but if they are willing to self navigate and ride their own ride, then they won't be holding anyone up. In either the case, the "fast" or the "slow" who are not willing to self navigate will find themselves relying on everyone else on the ride.
What's too fast? What's irresponsible riding? Unfortunately allot of this is a judgement call and while we probably all agree on what is flagrant it seems like we might not agree when it isn't so clear cut. I know there are people who think I ride too fast at times and ride irresponsibly at times. Sometimes I think they're right, and sometimes I think they're wrong. So what? Do we all need to agree at every instant? If this is the case, we will all ride at the lowest common denominator, very slowly and cautiously. Does someone assert their opinion so forcefully that everyone should be compelled to do it their way? How does doing things someone else's way, make sense in the context of riding your own ride? Do we create a set of rules, to make it easier for everyone to know and be judged by? What would they be beyond traffic laws, and how would anything but strict obeyance of traffic laws be rationalized? So where does this leave us?
It is really pretty simple. Everyone should ride their own ride. Everyone should ride responsibly and safely. What this means in practice is we develop a group understanding of what this means (e.g riding under control, riding within your limits, riding the Pace, maintaining safe following distances, being prepared and able to self navigate). If someone rides too fast or irresponsibly in your opinion, feel free to say something to them if you wish and don't ride with them. Keep in mind, just because someone feels someone else rides too fast or irresponsibly, unless the majority feel this way, it is just someone's opinion. If everyone feels the same way or understands things the same way, then we don't need rules and we don't need two sub forums.
As Hope points out,
Only problem I see with two different groups is opinions as to who would belong in each group and who would make that decision because you know there will be persons who believe in thier own minds that they belong in one group but in actuality don't.
Which leaves us with, what does it mean when you encourage people to ride their own ride, but tell them you're going to judge how they ride and decide whether it meets your approval or not? To me, it means that you don't want them to ride their own ride, you want them to ride your ride.
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If this is the case, we will all ride at the lowest common denominator, very slowly and cautiously.
I've always wanted to own one of these;)
we don't need stinkin rules
Fixed for you
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Ray- "First and foremost the notion here is to ride your own ride.'
And the vast majority of riders don't have a clue what this means or how it actually applies to them personally.
Ray-"What's too fast? What's irresponsible riding? Unfortunately allot of this is a judgement call and while we probably all agree on what is flagrant it seems like we might not agree when it isn't so clear cut. "
Well is anyone really trying to defend a video showing the speedo sweep past 100mph, or a 2 bike length following distance, or crossing the double yellow multiple times....
Here is one of my major issues;
You get people claiming to "only" ride 10 over in the straights, they post that in the ride thread then they are WOT out of every corner and running at or above triple digits on the actual ride.
Not to pick on Hope-but since you brought her up. She can easily run +10 on the straights, so that advertised ride would seem to have fit right in to how she can or wants to ride......She would have been rudely awoken at the pace that was actually run and had to have abandoned the ride or atleast the group and then been solo....People attend group rides in part for the socialization aspect----so why attend a group ride if you are going to be "left"---Yes I know riders on that ride who are far "faster" than Hope that were "left". So it isn't a Hopes skill level issue...This was way beyond "safe" or "pace"---you guys posts and texts to me all saying how "I was suprised nobody crashed"---well gewhiz....slow down a little and reduce the risk factor. If I led a ride and was "suprised" nobody crashed-I would totally rethink how I led and feel like an idiot for putting others in that position. (sure they need to take responsibility for their riding, but I and you and most others know they don't-so the burden falls on "us")
Ray-"Does someone assert their opinion so forcefully that everyone should be compelled to do it their way? How does doing things someone else's way, make sense in the context of riding your own ride?"
ON my rides your damn right I will exert my force to its fullest, anyone who doesn't like it should not attend my rides and STFU....you can do the same on your rides.
But the "club" does have some responsibility and some image and some accountability to how rides are run by its members, despite a few saying......oh "it is what it is"
If you really don't give a shit if people ride like idiots on mn-msta posted rides (or any ride for that matter), then why give a shit if they wear a helmet? Why give a shit if they wear any gear? Why give a shit how they post on the forum? Why give a shit at all? Why provide lip service of trying to make sure everyone is "proficient" and understands and follows all your points you made about "expectations"?
Ray-"It is really pretty simple. Everyone should ride their own ride. Everyone should ride responsibly and safely. What this means in practice is we develop a group understanding of what this means (e.g riding under control, riding within your limits, riding the Pace, maintaining safe following distances, being prepared and able to self navigate)."
It sounds simple-but it goes back to the vast majority of riders overestimate their riding skills. The vast majority don't have a clue what riding under control is. The vast majority don't know what riding within your limits is. The vast majority are unable to actually ride the pace. The vast majority don't know what maintaining safe following distance is, as far too many think a couple bike lengths is more than adequate. The vast majority are unable or unwilling to self navigate...Hell the vast majority would slow way down if they were forced to lead, since the vast majority simply rely solely on the person in front of them to do all their thinking and planning for corner speed, line etc....I believe the most all MSTA members do agree on what is wreckless, unsafe and idiotic--thus they also agree on what is safe and responsible....
Who are these "vast majority" well it ain't me or about 2 dozen riding enthusiasts I could list off the top of my head-but it is "members" who post up rides, attend rides, ruin rides (then of course the majority of the population of motorcyclists)
So do you want MN-MSTA to be lip service and just some other hack organization like TA , ZG or MNSBR where you say one thing but do another......or do you actually want it to be better?
Sundays ride was against nearly every point you made in your claim of what you expect on MN-MSTA rides......just as a very recent example- There are dozens of examples from last summer too--some even put of video tape evidence of such douchebaggery.
I can't make that choice for anyone, but I damn sure will express my displeasure and opinion on it.
I damn sure won't allow anyone I deem unsafe or idiotic on any of my rides or to ride with me if I attend someone elses.... And I definitely have that right !
"If someone rides too fast or irresponsibly in your opinion, feel free to say something to them if you wish and don't ride with them. Keep in mind, just because someone feels someone else rides too fast or irresponsibly, unless the majority feel this way, it is just someones opinion."
Oh I do !!!
Simply put-I am the most vocal of idiotic riding, furthermore my definition of idiotic is probably the same as most members opinions I give a shit about (as many of them have told me so). SO I am willing to bet you do already have a majority agreeing on what is too fast or irresponsibly, not just my outspoken opinion....
There is no harm in having 2 ride sections.......one for official MN-MSTA supported rides and one for everything else...Arguing otherwise is just stupid.
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Sundays ride was against nearly every point you made in your claim of what you expect on MN-MSTA rides......just as a very recent example- There are dozens of examples from last summer too--some even put of video tape evidence of such douchebaggery.
(http://jasonjeffrey.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/awjeeznotthisshitagain.jpg)
Coming from the ultimate Troll .... who wasn't there ( never has been, never will be ), blatantly lies (tell me where anyone hit triple digits?), sends hilariously PM's to me as if he's the Chief of Police of Motorcycling - don't you wish you were??, and is obviously obsessed with the way I ride. I've got a great life and a great hobby of motorcycling, and nothing to defend in my manner of riding. However I ride is the way I ride. So go ahead and text your riding buddies and come up with another small-dick response. What you say I and most others could care less. I introduced myself to you in person and you looked like an awkward school boy who got called out - you had nothing to say to me in person.
Go ahead and make your own invite only forum, and you can make yourself that much happier. Or keep on destroying threads here ... but at least its entertaining to us. I'm sure you'll PM me soon, look forward to another laugh, or you can just keep quoting me if I've made that great an impact on you.
+10 to me means +10 on any road that has traffic, any major highway, any place that puts you in a likely position to meet a radar gun. Anyone with half a dick figures that out pretty quickly with me, I'm slow in the straights and ride my own ride in the foothills. How anyone chooses to ride in the twisties of the WI alphabet roads - keep it safe around the general public and other riders and I don't care. Ride your own ride and enjoy motorcycling.
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Sundays ride was against nearly every point you made in your claim of what you expect on MN-MSTA rides......just as a very recent example- There are dozens of examples from last summer too--some even put of video tape evidence of such douchebaggery.
([url]http://jasonjeffrey.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/awjeeznotthisshitagain.jpg[/url])
Coming from the ultimate Troll .... who wasn't there ( never has been, never will be ), blatantly lies (tell me where anyone hit triple digits?), sends hilariously PM's to me as if he's the Chief of Police of Motorcycling - don't you wish you were??, and is obviously obsessed with the way I ride. I've got a great life and a great hobby of motorcycling, and nothing to defend in my manner of riding. However I ride is the way I ride. So go ahead and text your riding buddies and come up with another small-dick response. What you say I and most others could care less. I introduced myself to you in person and you looked like an awkward school boy who got called out - you had nothing to say to me in person.
Go ahead and make your own invite only forum, and you can make yourself that much happier. Or keep on destroying threads here ... but at least its entertaining to us. I'm sure you'll PM me soon, look forward to another laugh, or you can just keep quoting me if I've made that great an impact on you.
+10 to me means +10 on any road that has traffic, any major highway, any place that puts you in a likely position to meet a radar gun. Anyone with half a dick figures that out pretty quickly with me, I'm slow in the straights and ride my own ride in the foothills. How anyone chooses to ride in the twisties of the WI alphabet roads - keep it safe around the general public and other riders and I don't care. Ride your own ride and enjoy motorcycling.
You make me laugh....
Simply watch 'gramps" video---you can clearly watch the speedo sweep right past 100.
Simply ask a couple of the riders on that ride. Since you claim I am lying about it..
I am quite sure any of them would answer your question.....
My pm to you; (being the chief of police of motorcycling and all)
" I do not agree with your 90mph assessment.
90 is never necessary to make a pass even if you think you are opening up a gap big enough for all those idiots behind you--it is there job to pass on there own and safely......The whole chain of events with slamming on the brakes and creating panic in the group and "hanging" some out to dry is evidence enough
But whatever--you ride how you want (I am sure Supraman would fit right in) and I will ride how I want......away from riders with your way of thinking"
and the other one;
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Not only did you pass at 90mph needlessly in my opinion--
But the ride was led near triple digits for the majority of the day....Most said it was around 95mph for the majority of the ride.
So obviously your 90+mph pass isn't a big deal....
Vince and others made it sound like you hit the brakes....and even your statement of seeing what you thought was a cop car and slowing--well coasting downhill at 95 or whatever speed isn't going to slow you down enough if in fact that is a cop car awaitng the arival of potential ticket recipients....
Your statement of not getting any tickets...tickets are totally random happenstance---some people ride like jackasses all the time and rarely or never get tickets, others ride at 10 over and get caught regularly...Ticket count has nothing to do with how good a rider you are, or how "safe" you ride...."
You introduced yourself to me---well you didn't leave much of an impression on me. I obviously had nothing to say to you at the time.
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Kumbaya?
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Just as an FYI....
You are taking this as a personal assault against you---it isn't. I don't give a shit about you.
This is an assault on a way of thinking and a way of riding. Only has to do with you in the context of your claim that you only run 10 over, when clearly that wasn't the case...
Oh and if you had paid attention-you would have noticed all my quoted text was that of Ray none from you, Matt....
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ON my rides your damn right I will exert my force to its fullest, anyone who doesn't like it should not attend my rides and STFU....you can do the same on your rides.
Yes you do.
But the "club" does have some responsibility and some image and some accountability to how rides are run by its members, despite a few saying......oh "it is what it is"
If you really don't give a shit if people ride like idiots on mn-msta posted rides (or any ride for that matter), then why give a shit if they wear a helmet? Why give a shit if they wear any gear? Why give a shit how they post on the forum? Why give a shit at all? Why provide lip service of trying to make sure everyone is "proficient" and understands and follows all your points you made about "expectations"?
So you believe I really don't give a shit if people ride like idiots on MN-MSTA posted rides? The preceding is like saying, if you are really against racism, go and hunt Klansmen, and if you aren't hunting Klansmen, then you aren't really against racism. A leap of logic, reasoning and argument if I ever saw one.
We are trying to develop an understanding. We (you might be, but the club is not) are not trying to force anyone to do what we or I might think they need to do.
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It sounds simple-but it goes back to the vast majority of riders overestimate their riding skills. The vast majority don't have a clue what riding under control is. The vast majority don't know what riding within your limits is. The vast majority are unable to actually ride the pace. The vast majority don't know what maintaining safe following distance is, as far too many think a couple bike lengths is more than adequate. The vast majority are unable or unwilling to self navigate...Hell the vast majority would slow way down if they were forced to lead, since the vast majority simply rely solely on the person in front of them to do all their thinking and planning for corner speed, line etc....I believe the most all MSTA members do agree on what is wreckless, unsafe and idiotic--thus they also agree on what is safe and responsible....
Who are these "vast majority" well it ain't me or about 2 dozen rding enthusiasts I could list off the top of my head-but it is "members" who post up rides, attend rides, ruin rides (then of course the majority of the population of motorcyclists)
So do you want MN-MSTA to be lip service and just some other hack organization like TA , ZG or MNSBR where you say one thing but do another......or do you actually want it to be better?
Is it better than those other forums in your opinion? No long answer accepted, just a simply yes or no please.
Personally, I wouldn't call it better in an absolute sense, I'd simply say it is what I prefer. Others prefer the other forums, everyone has their preferences. Just like everyone has their preferences on how they like to ride. Are my preferences superior to those of others? Should everyone share my preferences and are they idiots for not sharing my preferences? I have enough ego to think this sometimes, but then I have enough humility to check myself and think, who died and made me god?
Sundays ride was against nearly every point you made in your claim of what you expect on MN-MSTA rides......just as a very recent example- There are dozens of examples form last summer too--some even put of video tape evidence of such douchebaggery.
I was on Sunday's ride. I led half the riders on the ride for the entire ride. I didn't observe any "douchbaggery". Implicitly I must have been part of it if there was some, because throughout the day, sometimes the group I was leading was ahead of the other group and sometimes it was the reverse. We caught the other group on the road, they caught us on the road. We must have been going at very nearly the same pace the entire day. I've been on MSTA rides all over the country, and I saw nothing on Sunday's ride that was out of ordinary or inconsistent with any MSTA ride I've been on. At the same time, I'm sure that if I had videotaped my riding and posted it to the forum, any number of "problems" with my riding could have been pointed out, and picked on. My riding was not flawless. Unfortunately it never is.
My only criticism of the Sunday ride would be that in general people followed way too closely. A persistent problem I see on virtually all our rides. Also a persistent problem which I rarely see come home to roost in a bad way. Something for folks to pay attention to and work on, not be indicted for in my book.
I can't make that choice for anyone, but I damn sure will express my displeasure and opinion on it.
I damn sure won't allow anyone I deem unfsafe or idiotic on any of my rides or to ride with me if I attend someone elses.... And I definitely have that right !
Of course you do. You have the right to even when you weren't there. The question is, when you don't have first hand knowledge, but state strong opinions are you being fair? Are you being credible? Are you being overly critical and judgmental? Are you making informed or uninformed statements? If you weren't on the ride, what informs your statements?
Ray - "If someone rides too fast or irresponsibly in your opinion, feel free to say something to them if you wish and don't ride with them. Keep in mind, just because someone feels someone else rides too fast or irresponsibly, unless the majority feel this way, it is just someones opinion."
Oh I do !!!
Simply put-I am the most vocal of idiotic riding, furthermore my definition of idiotic is probably the same as most members opinions I give a shit about (as many of them have told me so). SO I am willing to bet you do already have a majority agreeing on what is too fast or irresponsibly, not just my outspoken opinion....
So if we have a majority agreeing on what is too fast or irresponsible, what are we missing? Are we being successful at developing an understanding?
I think we disagree on how to get things to improve. You seem to favor being aggressive and assertive with telling people what in your opinion they are doing wrong. I prefer leading by example and letting people come to their own realizations. My oldest daughter taught me long ago the weakness of being aggressive and assertive as a teaching and influencing approach long ago. I could bully her into doing things, but all that ever taught her was what to do and not to do when I was around.
There is no harm in having 2 ride sections.......one for official MN-MSTA supported rides and one for everything else...Arguing otherwise is just stupid.
The harm in having 2 ride sections is the inconvenience of having to look at two different sub forums to figure out what rides might be going on in a weekend. This would make it much easier for people to miss rides or for people to post conflicting rides. Official MN-MSTA rides are contained in a sticky at the top of the Rides / Get Togethers sub forum and are already clearly labelled as MN-MSTA rides when posted to the sub forum, so what would be the benefit of having 2 ride sections?
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PM sent--but yes I agree that there needs to be an understanding on how rides are run.....
And I thought the statements on such ( read your own ideas of what you expect on mnmsta rides etc)already set that standard, one that isn't really being followed by far too many.
Do I think you don't care----------of course not, you care as much as I do---just our approach is different....Mine much more vocal, known and assertive---yours simply too passive that many don't know what it is?? If it is simply to "lead by example" and "HOPE" eventually people catch on or move on...well I don't think that is very effective.
But far be it from me to tell you how to run the forum or your rides, unless of course you make statements in which you profess one thing and then give the appearance of not actually meaning what you say??
One word answer to is this forum run better than "those" forums....In a yes or no answer....................no?
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Ray"--The harm in having 2 ride sections is the inconvenience of having to look at two different sub forums to figure out what rides might be going on in a weekend. This would make it much easier for people to miss rides or for people to post conflicting rides. Official MN-MSTA rides are contained in a sticky at the top of the Rides / Get Togethers sub forum and are already clearly labelled as MN-MSTA rides when posted to the sub forum, so what would be the benefit of having 2 ride sections?"
Who cares if there is conflicting rides? It used to be that way and then people have more choices....
The inconvenience excuse....LOL
The MN-MSTA rides are run differently than "ad-hoc" rides.
The expectations and reality of the two types of rides are completely different as well.
People who are only interested in MN-MSTA rides-would not be bothered with the hows or whys of the adhoc rides
The "adhoc" ride section would be like the stepchild that nobody talks about. It is there but nobody wants to hear about or read about it... (it is an expression, not how I feel about stepchildren)
Prospective new members would see the "showcase" of mn-msta rides and not the ad-hoc section..which surely would show mn-msta in a better light and garner the members you seek more readily, rather than those who aren't as "proficient" and only looking to go "fast"
And again, what does it hurt to do it? It takes what a few minutes to set up-then let it go and trial it for a season....If I am wrong-you can always revert back to how it is.
It was suggested to me, and I actually do agree as do a few people I brought it up to (hell I already do this with some members when they have asked for my assessment of other "leaders")
You could put a grading system of sorts where we have a standard form that participants of rides can answer questions or make comments about the others on the ride (anonymously if need be). Basically a way for everyone to improve or see what others really view their riding as and certain ride routes or particular roads----I would simply put this only in the MN-MSTA section as the other section is going to be more for those footloose and fancy free, and have that "just ride" attitude.
I am not against others judging me or grading me--go ahead, I appreciate the criticism...
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The "adhoc" ride section would be like the stepchild that nobody talks about. It is there but nobody wants to hear about or read about it... (it is an expression, not how I feel about stepchildren)
Fact: Last year and most years, adhoc rides out number official MN-MSTA rides by a significant margin. In a six month riding season there are nominally 48 weekend days of riding. There are typically quite a few adhoc weekday rides which get done every year too. We have 17 official MN-MSTA rides planned this year, between April and November (8 months), the most in over a decade. It is unlikely we will ever have more official MN-MSTA rides than adhoc rides on the forum, simply based on the amount of work it takes to put on an official MN-MSTA ride and the number of weekend riding days in a season.
Activity in an adhoc ride only forum is likely to be significantly greater than in an official MN-MSTA ride only forum. If adhoc rides were separated from official MN-MSTA rides, it is likely the official MN-MSTA ride sub forum would be more like a stepchild to the Adhoc sub forum than vice versa. Posting MN-MSTA rides alongside adhoc rides helps lead by example with respect to what riders should expect from a ride organizer and on a safe ride. When you see MN-MSTA rides with a defined start time, route, route sheets and files, and a lack of "let's rip" rhetoric side by side with adhoc rides without the same level of planning and definition and with let's rip rhetoric, I think it help makes the differences between MN-MSTA rides and some adhoc rides clearer. I'll also say, as much as "let's rip" rides are not my thing, it is clear to me that some MN-MSTA members are okay with them as they go on them.
The inconvenience excuse....LOL
If rides were split into 2 forums, it would be more likely to find an adhoc ride than an official MN-MSTA ride, the official MN-MSTA ride forum would be the inconvenient forum to check, unless MN-MSTA rides were cross posted to the Adhoc sub forum. But if you do this, then what is the point of having two forums?
Prospective new members would see the "showcase" of mn-msta rides and not the ad-hoc section..which surely would show mn-msta in a better light and garner the members you seek more readily, rather than those who aren't as "proficient" and only looking to go "fast"
Retailers "showcase" their highest margin goods on end caps because that is what makes them most visible to customers. Placing MN-MSTA rides, which is the focus and pride of the club away from the place where most rides are setup and discussed would be like a store placing their highest margin goods in a back corner. It is a bad marketing idea. You showcase something by placing it where it is most visible to everyone passing by. You showcase things by placing them in a convenient location, not by placing them in an inconvenient location.
The MN-MSTA rides are run differently than "ad-hoc" rides.
The expectations and reality of the two types of rides are completely different as well.
People who are only interested in MN-MSTA rides-would not be bothered with the hows or whys of the adhoc rides
Really? I run my adhoc rides just like I run MN-MSTA rides. Greg seems to run his adhoc rides just like he runs Tri-State Boogie, and I assume your adhoc rides are run pretty much the same way as MN-MSTA rides, or run "better". Matt's ride used a route from an official MN-MSTA ride and I ran my group like I run any group on an MSTA ride. I think Matt did the same. Wouldn't these rides along with more rides tend to give an Adhoc sub forum equal or more credibility and attention than a forum with official MN-MSTA rides only?
Who cares if there is conflicting rides? It used to be that way and then people have more choices....
If rides were separated into two forums, conflicting rides would make it even less important to pay attention to the forum with fewer rides.
And again, what does it hurt to do it? It takes what a few minutes to set up-then let it go and trial it for a season....If I am wrong-you can always revert back to how it is.
It has taken allot to develop the biggest line up of MN-MSTA rides in over a decade. If you're wrong, you're right, I can always revert back to how it is today, and work on lining up a big ride schedule again. There, that was easy, wasn't it?
It was suggested to me, and I actually do agree as do a few people I brought it up to (hell I already do this with some members when they have asked for my assessment of other "leaders")
You could put a grading system of sorts where we have a standard form that participants of rides can answer questions or make comments about the others on the ride (anonymously if need be). Basically a way for everyone to improve or see what others really view their riding as and certain ride routes or particular roads----I would simply put this only in the MN-MSTA section as the other section is going to be more for those footloose and fancy free, and have that "just ride" attitude.
Like an Ebay feedback system? I've never seen one implemented in a forum. Anonymous feedback? Not sure how this can be done and have never seen a successful feedback system which allowed this. Put this stuff (rider rating and feedback, feedback on routes or roads) in the same MN-MSTA section as MN-MSTA rides get posted to, isn't this going to make MN-MSTA rides stand out less and be harder to find?
Have you every seen one? Do you have an example of what you're suggesting so I can see how it works and figure out what it will take to implement it?
I am not against others judging me or grading me--go ahead, I appreciate the criticism...
OK.
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This group ride thing is funny. I would be willing to bet you all know who you like to ride with and why. You most likely have phone numbers for each one of them. If you dont like how the group setting goes and really only want to ride with a certain sub set of riders.......call your buddies on the phone and go for a ride, leave the posting rides off the forum if you dont like who shows up!
Seems pretty simple to me.
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This group ride thing is funny. I would be willing to bet you all know who you like to ride with and why. You most likely have phone numbers for each one of them. If you dont like how the group setting goes and really only want to ride with a certain sub set of riders.......call your buddies on the phone and go for a ride, leave the posting rides off the forum if you dont like who shows up!
Seems pretty simple to me.
+1
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I'm going to chime in. The strength of this forum is having well run, logistically adept ride leaders that have strong knowledge of the routes. This deserves respect, along with the time, effort and risks of putting together a ride.
Forum members enjoy this, and like the ability to join in something already set up. Some people take riding seriously (as in #1 or #2 priority in their life, others enjoy it as a casual hobby while others have external time constraints).
Keep it simple and more people will enjoy the routes, the rides, and the forum.
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This group ride thing is funny. I would be willing to bet you all know who you like to ride with and why. You most likely have phone numbers for each one of them. If you dont like how the group setting goes and really only want to ride with a certain sub set of riders.......call your buddies on the phone and go for a ride, leave the posting rides off the forum if you dont like who shows up!
Seems pretty simple to me.
not if you're the organizer making a dozen or more phone calls / texts / pms during round one (of many) as people try to sync up on the details. one feature of MNSBR that I have noticed is the PM's are more like private threads (not sure if they are limited to the number of people you can have in them though), that type of arrangement might work for the task at hand.
i do agree that the routes are a major differentiation, as is the age of the core membership, the bikes of choice, and the basic perspective on douchebaggery, and other things i'm sure. in my opinion we are perhaps losing our advantage on the douchebaggery front.
i have some other philosophy on the topic too, but i'm trying to get my thoughts together before posting up.
a.s.
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Stay tuned, for tomorrow's episode......
Will Lloyd discover that goats do not herd well with sheep?
Will Ray finally cave to his secret desires and start sleeping in the shed with his "Pani".
Will Matt finally realize his Speedo is off?
Will Greg find another bizarre photo of four guys off the intenet (and tell you how he does it!)
AS THE GROUP RIDE TURNS...........
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Stay tuned, for tomorrow's episode......
Will Lloyd discover that goats do not herd well with sheep?
Will Ray finally cave to his secret desires and start sleeping in the shed with his "Pani".
Will Greg find another bizarre photo of four guys off the intenet (and tell you how he does it!)
AS THE GROUP RIDE TURNS...........
do NOT mock the Gert Jonnys .....
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/tgyeti/048.jpg)
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1) I sure like spring when the riding starts and the Drama blooms ;D I had to check if I accidently clicked on the ZG forum.
2) I would classify my comfort as riding with
A) people who I think are riding within control
B) people who are considerate to other road users, other ride participants and residents of the area we ride through
C) people who are not using the road for a cheap racetrack alternative
D) people who value precision over speed.
3) the rating system shows up on SVRider for buying and selling. It could be titled differently here, but how would you rate someone objectively without a set of agreed standards?
4) Following Distance - the posted videos suck folks. Only one rider (the lead rider) is actually plotting a line and exercising that part of ride-craft. The rest of you are following so close that you have no need to pick a line. Sheesh, drop back a bit and practice your craft, if you want it to be an on-road race, Frickin pass the guy already! If you don't want to do either then it is just a warp-speed parade >:(
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here is where clicking on the number of feedback links takes you on SVRider
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The harm in having 2 ride sections is the inconvenience of having to look at two different sub forums to figure out what rides might be going on in a weekend. This would make it much easier for people to miss rides or for people to post conflicting rides. Official MN-MSTA rides are contained in a sticky at the top of the Rides / Get Togethers sub forum and are already clearly labelled as MN-MSTA rides when posted to the sub forum, so what would be the benefit of having 2 ride sections?
As a forum member, you can subscribe to the forum so you will get an email if a post happens, this makes it easy to "monitor" rides. I think this would be something worth trying, if it does not work it can be undone this is not something that will be life changing and you only get one chance at it in your life.
Maybe setup a poll, no comments no discussion just a yes or no or don't care, the most votes wins then you make the change and its done.
Two rides at the same time is not a big deal it offers choices, choices are good. :)
Greg i mean steve, that was just funny.
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4) Following Distance - the posted videos suck folks. Only one rider (the lead rider) is actually plotting a line and exercising that part of ride-craft. The rest of you are following so close that you have no need to pick a line. Sheesh, drop back a bit and practice your craft, if you want it to be an on-road race, Frickin pass the guy already! If you don't want to do either then it is just a warp-speed parade >:(
This comment raises an important question to consider in the context of "riding your own ride" which I think bears some discussion.
When a group rides too fast or recklessly who is to blame? The leader or the followers?
If the leader is riding too fast or recklessly which makes more sense to do: Follow their too fast and reckless lead and talk to the leader at the next stop or slow down and let the leader disappear into the distance?
One of the things we focus on including for rides is a route sheet and on riders knowing how to self navigate. By making sure a route sheet for a ride is available to everyone, we seek to make sure anyone and everyone knows everything the ride leader needs to know to lead, so if followers don't like the way a ride is being led, they can let the ride leader ride off in the distance if they want to. Followers don't have to ride too fast or recklessly if they don't want to.
So, in the context of a "ride your own ride" with a published route sheet, when a group rides too fast and recklessly is the leader to blame or the followers?
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"Two rides at the same time is not a big deal it offers choices, choices are good."
This I agree with 100%. In the old days (Yahoo board) we would pride ourselves in having multiple rides posted for the same day. They often went different directions.
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I had fun on all the rides I've been on with this crew. Some were better than others and there are some of you I would think twice about riding alone with. But as a group this place is the best and I would say that any who truely loves to ride would agree. There is plenty of contrast in the riders around here and for me that just makes it more interesting. I have met some of the best street riders in my life because of MN-MSTA and our worst riders are far better than the worst I've seen. So lets keep this place the way it was intented so even a guy like me will fit in.
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"Two rides at the same time is not a big deal it offers choices, choices are good."
This I agree with 100%. In the old days (Yahoo board) we would pride ourselves in having multiple rides posted for the same day. They often went different directions.
Yeah and in the old days of the Yahoo Board everything was in a single forum instead of the 7 sub forums we have now. I think Roger preferred the Yahoo Group format to the current format because of its simplicity and singularity and if you read his sig, you'll probably see that he still dislike forums.
Since anyone can subscribe to a sub forum, maybe we should open the discussion up and set up even more sub forums. I'm, already committed to setting up a Safety sub forum, we could have Brand specific forums, Region (NW, W, SW, S, SE, E, NE, WI and IA) specific forums, a Technical forum, a Vendor forum, an Off Road forum, an MSTA Member's only forum, .....
Then again, if you're a paying MN-MSTA member you already receive a notice in the state newsletter about up coming rides and anyone who is specifically interested in MN-MSTA official rides can subscribe to the ride posts themselves. The MN-MSTA ride calendar is the only thing that got force distributed via email to everyone who is registered to the forum. If we want to showcase MN-MSTA rides a better way to do so would be to force distribute the posts for these rides to every registered forum user.
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Because following distance comes up a lot, I could suggest a simple solution. Have each rider leave the stop/turn one at a time. The following rider would wait a minute then leave. That way you start with a decent gap and everyone gets to ride thier own ride. Leaving in a pack tends to cause "pack riding" and "pack mentality". I got a local group really pissed off last fall when I posted on an accident thread that the group was riding too close together. There was an accident and the bike that crashed into them took out a couple riders. What they refused to hear was that their close riding caused 2 bikes to be impacted and that the worst hurt individual may have been able to see the other bike coming sooner and (if space was available around him) take evasive action. Yes that is hypothetical - but I followed this pack along MN60 and they made our 2 second gap look like an eternity.
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Seriously, keep the forum the way it is. I work in technology and one of the things I drill into the people who work for me is to not get caught up in the technology. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" and "The KISS principle" are the things I tell them daily. In the end, this gives you usable technology that can be implemented quickly and maintained.
I see no reason not to follow those same principles here. Just trying to follow the three pages of posts on this topic and all the theories and ideas is making my head spin. Say what you want about the other forums, but they take a much simpler approach to organizing rides and it works. Granted, no one puts restrictions on who should join a ride or not, other than they do list whether its a beginners ride or not. Not here to debate who is a beginner or not or how those "douchebags" ride, just merely saying they have something that works.
I think the simplest way to do it is what I have seen on here from time to time, which is invitation only rides or MN-MSTA official rides. Otherwise a ride posted up should just be open and the ride organizer has the right to reject anyone from a ride that shows up that they feel is not adequately prepared, gear or bike, or if on the ride they are not riding up to the standard of the ride leader, the ride leader can stop the ride at any time and ask that person to leave. When people post rides on here I think they do a good job of setting the tone for the ride, how it should be ridden, if they are expected to be able to self navigate, etc. Seems pretty simple to me, its up to the ride leader to set the standard and hold people to it. If we kicked people out of a ride we don't feel are riding properly, two things happen. Either they never show up again, or they learn (or at least try to learn) how to ride properly.
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^^^^
But this continues to put all the burden on the ride "leader"/ "organizer". Which is a big fail in my book and past experience has proven leaders disappear under that burden.
Even though I have always felt as the ride leader the responsibility for the safety, fun and pace of the group...I sure as hell don't think it ought to be that way nor do I even like it that way. And with the ride "leader/organizer" being so responsible as you suggest is it any suprise we have so few of them and far too many "followers" looking to be led.
Lets fix one thing everyone agrees on..
Following distances..........................................that should be easy, right?
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Lets face it, human nature is a hard thing to change. It's all about competition and ego's when we are on these things. I think if we could all see ourselves in a mirror when riding it would look way different than it does in our heads. All we can do for those that ride with little respect for others is to teach by example.
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Seriously, keep the forum the way it is. I work in technology and one of the things I drill into the people who work for me is to not get caught up in the technology. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" and "The KISS principle" are the things I tell them daily. In the end, this gives you usable technology that can be implemented quickly and maintained.
I see no reason not to follow those same principles here. Just trying to follow the three pages of posts on this topic and all the theories and ideas is making my head spin. Say what you want about the other forums, but they take a much simpler approach to organizing rides and it works. Granted, no one puts restrictions on who should join a ride or not, other than they do list whether its a beginners ride or not. Not here to debate who is a beginner or not or how those "douchebags" ride, just merely saying they have something that works.
I think the simplest way to do it is what I have seen on here from time to time, which is invitation only rides or MN-MSTA official rides. Otherwise a ride posted up should just be open and the ride organizer has the right to reject anyone from a ride that shows up that they feel is not adequately prepared, gear or bike, or if on the ride they are not riding up to the standard of the ride leader, the ride leader can stop the ride at any time and ask that person to leave. When people post rides on here I think they do a good job of setting the tone for the ride, how it should be ridden, if they are expected to be able to self navigate, etc. Seems pretty simple to me, its up to the ride leader to set the standard and hold people to it. If we kicked people out of a ride we don't feel are riding properly, two things happen. Either they never show up again, or they learn (or at least try to learn) how to ride properly.
If you want to through K.I.S.S. in here (for those that don't know Keep it Simple Stupid), then the adding of the forum would be it, it would keep people form having to do invite only rides and it would have the potential for keeping people form joining a ride where they feel they have to try to keep up. I know the ride your own ride theory and it is good in theory however at some will try to keep up, maybe its ego or they can't self navigate, or they think they can ride like like the others, whatever the reason it will just happen its just how it is, so everybody can keep saying ride your own ride, but think about it in reality how often on the group rides does that happen.
Two sub forums would be simple, one for everybody in the world as it is today. The other one could be done by group (Ray could give some people permissions to do that so it would not fall on him, it would also not give these selected people admin rights to the board) or by number of posts.
I think the issues with having two ride sub forums are:
- People missing rides
- Confusion
- people not liking change
- It was\is Lloyd's idea.
I also think the other issue is over all riding style and safety, which is what prompted the idea for two sub forums.
even though it was Lloyd's idea ;) , I think having two sub forums would be a good idea and hey if it does not get used there is a delete button that can fix it right up. Change is always hard, some times it works out some times it does not.
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Perhaps there should be an "OBDURATE" section in the forum.GJ ???
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I don't see what the problem is the way it is setup now. No one forces anyone to attend any group rides. If somebody puts x2 or x2 +10 in the corners, one should realize the pace of that ride, and if that's not their style then they can post up their own group ride if they want to ride with others and be explicit about how they want to ride. OR they can attend and be proficient with a route sheet as Ray and the 'forum' advocate, so they can ride their own ride and still socialize at gas stops or a lunch, and learn some new roads as well.
I have not heard anyone complain about any group rides except those who do not attend them.
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I don't see what the problem is the way it is setup now. No one forces anyone to attend any group rides. If somebody puts x2 or x2 +10 in the corners, one should realize the pace of that ride, and if that's not their style then they can post up their own group ride if they want to ride with others and be explicit about how they want to ride. OR they can attend and be proficient with a route sheet as Ray and the 'forum' advocate, so they can ride their own ride and still socialize at gas stops or a lunch, and learn some new roads as well.
I have not heard anyone complain about any group rides except those who do not attend them.
I agree. Let's stop trying to reinvent the wheel. This thread is sucking all the fun out of riding and coming to this website.
Route sheets work. There were hundreds of experienced, proficient riders at the STAR rally last year. MSTA national uses route sheets. Good enough for me.
Navel gazing sucks.
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If you want to through K.I.S.S. in here (for those that don't know Keep it Simple Stupid), then the adding of the forum would be it, it would keep people form having to do invite only rides and it would have the potential for keeping people form joining a ride where they feel they have to try to keep up. I know the ride your own ride theory and it is good in theory however at some will try to keep up, maybe its ego or they can't self navigate, or they think they can ride like like the others, whatever the reason it will just happen its just how it is, so everybody can keep saying ride your own ride, but think about it in reality how often on the group rides does that happen.
Two sub forums would be simple, one for everybody in the world as it is today. The other one could be done by group (Ray could give some people permissions to do that so it would not fall on him, it would also not give these selected people admin rights to the board) or by number of posts.
I think the issues with having two ride sub forums are:
- People missing rides
- Confusion
- people not liking change
- It was\is Lloyd's idea.
I also think the other issue is over all riding style and safety, which is what prompted the idea for two sub forums.
even though it was Lloyd's idea ;) , I think having two sub forums would be a good idea and hey if it does not get used there is a delete button that can fix it right up. Change is always hard, some times it works out some times it does not.
I'm confused.
It seems you're suggesting a closed sub forum for MN-MSTA official rides. Who would you suggest would be able to see these rides? On what basis would people be included or excluded? Number of posts in no way reflects someone's suitability for an MN-MSTA ride and there are a number of dues paying members on the forum, who never post. What also of riders who are perfectly suited to MN-MSTA rides who join the forum to find a ride who could only see ad hoc rides? Wouldn't a closed sub forum effectively feature ad hoc rides over MN-MSTA rides to them? Wouldn't a closed sub forum for MN-MSTA official rides, do exactly the opposite of showcasing these rides?
If you are suggesting a closed sub forum for some group of riders on the forum which some forum member would control access to, the questions would be, who would these sub forums be created for? Why would some members be able to get their own closed sub forums and some members not be able to get a closed sub forum, or is the idea that anyone who wanted would could get one?
The vast majority of MN-MSTA official rides are open to anyone and everyone (not just dues paying MSTA members). Occasionally there are rides for dues paying members only. Although these rides maybe referenced without details on the forum, the details necessary to participate in these rides are communicated via the state newsletters only to ensure that all dues paying members are proactively notified of them.
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I probably may have never joined the old HSTA had there been no open rides. Back in 1996 I was invited to come to a ride and enjoyed the riders and ride. It didn't take many more rides to decide to become a member. I think closing rides off sends a message of elitism and doesn't attract the riders who simply want to enjoy a social ride on a nice day.
A note of irony, before there was widespread use of the internet, HSTA rides were only advertised with a newsletter and word of mouth. I recall NO drama regarding ride decorum and everyone was welcome. You simply picked your riding partners based on their pace. I recall very little issue over route sheets or ride protocol. I don't even recall any crash in those newsletter only days.
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Perhaps there should be an "OBDURATE" section in the forum.GJ ???
Sorry John....I now need a chief of police section.....lol
but funny stuff....
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Perhaps there should be an "OBDURATE" section in the forum.GJ ???
Sorry John....I now need a chief of police section.....lol
but funny stuff....
This is your 4th name change, Lloyd.
What's up with that? Just curious .....
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"If you are suggesting a closed sub forum for some group of riders on the forum which some forum member would control access to, the questions would be, who would these sub forums be created for? "
being in a total good mood and a smart ass today;
Multiple "private" sub forums...members can belong to one or all-- (The "owner" of that section moderates it themself)
lets see we have the;
1) I am underskilled and don't know it therefore I can ride as good as anyone,section
2) I am super fast. Trust me I am,section...
3) I have no idea where I am going, so you lead,section
4) I am slow and know it and am totally okay with that,section
5) I am slow and embarrassed about it, so I will push as hard as I dare to ride with you guys,section
6) I do trackdays, and the streets are paved just like the track, so lets use it all,section
7) "It is what it is", "I don't need to think about riding, I just ride",section
8) Rays section....80-85 for 90% of the ride, start and end in Nelson (oh wait my speedo is what?,,,15 mph off, no way)...oh and if I don't show up--I took the duc and ran out of gas---I'll catch up
9) Vince's section....I will go as fast as everybody else wants to but I will do it following 3 bike lengths back. 70 no problem, 170 no problem, lets go....
10) Paul's section....I do destination rides because I enjoy them...I have no interest in riding "fast" even though my pace often is as brisk as some of the "fast" guys. Plus you better be able to go further than 150 miles on a tank of fuel (unless you are riding a dualsport, that falls under the dual sport exception rule)
11) Rogers section...I like to wick it up especially on the tupperware bike. Come ride with me and we will have plenty of yuks and a great time at all the stops..
12) Denyse's section...Guys, you need to pose for this picture, then we can ride some more.
13) Chris' section...okay we were supposed to leave at 9 it is now 10, lets go already
14) Johns section.....is it Monday yet?
15) Greg's section...Tri- State boogie time. Devoted subscriber to #7 though. Now who has a truck to get me to Arkansas?
16) Lloyd's section... 68-74 mph 90% of the ride and I do not want to wait for anyone, nor do I want to put my feet down at stop signs. I will see you guys for ice cream in 500 miles and it won't be via MN sweeper roads, it'll be some loopdeloop round and round hitting every road imagineable and no I do not care that those 46 miles were sand covered...NO you cannot share my route sheet..
17) Tony's section...I'm with you guys, wherever you want to go. I just want to ride. What? I need a new chain and sprockets, how did that happen...
18) Joel's section....what? me lead....ummm ok
19) Marks section....***the section you are entering has no rides***....
Now I hope everyone enjoys a little humor and little fun being poked at some of the people I like .... I have no doubt they will get a good laugh out of it.
I guess Ray really is special.....he doesn't even get a number, rather he is the cool guy smiley....lol
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Perhaps there should be an "OBDURATE" section in the forum.GJ ???
Sorry John....I now need a chief of police section.....lol
but funny stuff....
This is your 4th name change, Lloyd.
What's up with that? Just curious .....
obdurate is played out...the fun has left the building.
Chief of Police is my new fun phrase.....for now
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SOMEONE'S OFF THEIR MEDS! WHILE YOU GUYS BANTERED I GOT IN MY 90MI N.W. LOOP. :P
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I didn't get a section Lloyd :( lol
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I didn't get a section Lloyd :( lol
#4 ?
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I'd say more of a 3/4 recovering from a #5 and 1 :)
Did get a pretty good laugh out of the new number system though
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3 bike lengths, now you know you loose the draft if you get any farther back. And the Rocket keeps trying to pass me doing a wheelie. I need the draft. When I get the new bike your going to up that 170 to 200 right. Do I need track tires for the number 6 section or can I use some really bald tires that look like slicks.
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1) I am underskilled and don't know it therefore I can ride as good as anyone,section
2) I am super fast. Trust me I am,section...
3) I have no idea where I am going, so you lead,section
4) I am slow and know it and am totally okay with that,section
5) I am slow and embarrassed about it, so I will push as hard as I dare to ride with you guys,section
6) I do trackdays, and the streets are paved just like the track, so lets use it all,section
7) "It is what it is", "I don't need to think about riding, I just ride",section
8) Rays section....80-85 for 90% of the ride, start and end in Nelson (oh wait my speedo is what?,,,15 mph off, no way)...oh and if I don't show up--I took the duc and ran out of gas---I'll catch up
9) Vince's section....I will go as fast as everybody else wants to but I will do it following 3 bike lengths back. 70 no problem, 170 no problem, lets go....
10) Paul's section....I do destination rides because I enjoy them...I have no interest in riding "fast" even though my pace often is as brisk as some of the "fast" guys. Plus you better be able to go further than 150 miles on a tank of fuel (unless you are riding a dualsport, that falls under the dual sport exception rule)
11) Rogers section...I like to wick it up especially on the tupperware bike. Come ride with me and we will have plenty of yuks and a great time at all the stops..
12) Denyse's section...Guys, you need to pose for this picture, then we can ride some more.
13) Chris' section...okay we were supposed to leave at 9 it is now 10, lets go already
14) Johns section.....is it Monday yet?
15) Greg's section...Tri- State boogie time. Devoted subscriber to #7 though
16) Lloyd's section... 68-74 mph 90% of the ride and I do not want to wait for anyone, nor do I want to put my feet down at stop signs. I will see you guys for ice cream in 500 miles and it won't be via MN sweeper roads, it'll be some loopdeloop round and round hitting every road imagineable and no I do not care that those 46 miles were sand covered...NO you cannot share my route sheet..
17) Tony's section...I'm with you guys, wherever you want to go. I just want to ride. What? I need a new chain and sprockets, how did that happen...
18) Joel's section....what? me lead....ummm ok
19) Marks section....***the section you are entering has no rides***....
Now I hope everyone enjoys a little humor and little fun being poked at the people I like.... I have no doubt they will get a good laugh out of it.
I guess Ray really is special.....he doesn't even get a number, rather he is the cool guy smiley....lol
Pretty funny...
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I just read the last half page to my wife. She is still laughing.
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The sub forum sounds like a good idea - let's call it "Pissy Pants" with a membership of one.
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Matt---"I have not heard anyone complain about any group rides except those who do not attend them."
Greg---"There were hundreds of experienced, proficient riders at the STAR rally last year. MSTA national uses route sheets."
In answer to Matt, Probably should do some fact checking before making such an assumption. your statement couldn't be more false.
I guess, Vince, Joel, Andy, myself don't attend rides? As I see it we have all made complaints about rides (read past and present threads) and atleast 3 of the 4 attended dozens of mn-msta rides last year alone... I could name a few more members that attend numerous rides and have complained as well....but this clearly makes my point.
In answer to Greg. The people who attend STAR, TWISTAR and the other national events. Well they travel from far and wide to attend these events, they are more experienced (IMO) and they have a different mindset and attitude than the minority of the follower members on this forum. It is the equivelant of comparing college grads to high school drop outs.
Tim. I am sorry I didn't make a group for you. Oh thats right you are of the I don't join in the rides group because route sheets are too dangerous? We'll give you the ownership of the Pissy Pants group you desire with your lone membership....
Come on 20 subforums was a joke (or was it?).....Vinces wife clearly had the same reaction I did to my creation and I am glad Jared saw the humor as well....
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I don't know if the conversation will get much traction, as it's a little politically incorrect, but I think it's an important discussion to have and now's a great time to have it. From my reading of this and other attempted discussions about the tone or personality of this site, I feel that the "safe and proficient" riding / rides, "good riders on good roads" sorta personality of MN-MSTA is deteriorating. Lloyd's sub-forum idea seems like one possible / logical approach to kind of masking the uglier side of what we have become -- a launching place for average riders on great routes riding like morons, out of sight of the general public at first. I think the basic concept is along the lines of putting your best foot forward or you only have one chance to make a first impression. The trick of course is how to judge things effectively, and while I don't have any good insight into how to do that, there are several well-respected riders here that would be more than capable of witnessing and then judging as needed. I think if we're honest, there are rides we'd rather not have everyone know we run (perhaps most easily determined after the fact) or mistakenly think that that is how all of our rides are run -- the sub-forum idea was one way to contain that risk / exposure and highlight some of the more polished / by-the-book rides. Maybe the MN-MSTA rides vs. Ad Hoc rides labelling is all that we need, but I think that's a pretty important distinction that some people, especially guests, won't recognize.
While the sub-forum might not end up being the answer, I think having very real discussions about "how rides are run" and how riders ride on them is the only thing that's going to keep "us" "better" than TA or MNSBR or whatever. Sure our routes will probably always be unique and likely better, if we don't use up all of the leadership / ride creators and if the great routes aren't eventually over-used and abused, but if we refuse to talk about the core beliefs and how they / we are changing, our routes might end up being the only thing that sets us apart.
I've said it before and I'll say it forever, I'm a better and more "aware" rider than ever before, thanks to people being willing to judge me and others in the group.
a.s.
p.s. just for the record, I join group rides for the group aspect, it irks me when my "riding buddies" are either way ahead or way behind (like more than a few seconds). I like being part of a group, a formation, I like the way kids stare and dogs bark and dads in mini-vans wish they were out there with us; I like watching people ride challenging roads well and the idea / hope that people are watching me ride (hopefully) well. I like the sight of a train of bikes streaming like ants around a bend climbing a hill, I like the sound of a wide range of bikes pulling away from stops. I like the security it brings and put up with the risk it brings. I don't like spending energy "wondering" anything -- like am I riding too fast for those dropping behind, or will those in front come back for me if I have a flat or something or am I too slow for the guy on my *.*. I don't like getting passed by anything with 4 wheels and love being passed by a friend that wants to run a little faster or lead an upcoming section. I don't like being the only one to see things, I want to talk about that eagle, fox, deer, crazy driver, perfect corner or hopefully rare but beautiful great save, and I want to hear what other's thought of those same experiences... experiences, stories and tales that can't be shared when running solo or when the group is "too spread out".
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Andy, that was very well written & I totally agree with you. Thank you for your time & effort into putting into words what I haven't been able to. I will have more to share on this subject when I have access from an actual computer & not just my phone. For those of you with access to Facebook, I wrote a piece on riding that I will share here when I'm able to upload it.
I for one think change is good.... we don't grow if we don't step outside our comfort zone.
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I can't quote since I'm using my phone but I will say this in regards to what has been said about me...
If I would've gone on that Sun ride you guys are talking about that was advertised as 10+ then was apparently much more, I would've lost the group so fast that it would've been a waste of time for me to go. I go riding with other people because I don't want to ride alone the entire ride. By the time I would've caught up to a 90+ pace at a gas stop no one would even be there still. I think at the very least that if a ride is going to be posted with a planned pace that the ride should stick to that. But they dont... which is why I rarely join group rides. Whats the point if I'm gonna be left to self navigate i might as well do my own thing. I would rather participate more and sociallize with friends but if I'm gonna left in the dust well then...."my style" of riding currently could be labeled as "self preservation" rides. Of course I wanna ride with my friends and become better and more skilled but not at the cost of trying to keep up on rides that were posted as 10+ but then were actually much faster. And no, I wasn't there, but I don't doubt it for one second.
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And why do you guys .gotta pick on the slow kids for? LOL
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Hope, I don't know you but I do know some of your good friends that you ride with. I think it would be safe to say that if said friends were on a ride like this you would not get left behind. You don't have to feel left out if your riding friends are on any ride.
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I don't know Mike, you know that Vince guy almost threw me off the back of his bike once!
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Well you gotta hang on.
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Eh, details, LOL
But I am FOR having more sections to list group rides. It would be easier, I think, for me to find others to ride with while I am in my self preservation phase of learning to ride. I got down the basics but need to improve upon my skills in both a safe and fun manner. And a big part of why i joined this forum and don't go on a ZG ride is due to the reputation this forum has for riding safely but still having a good time. However when posted rides advertise one thing and you hear from the riders themselves that it was different it makes me wonder if I will ever be able to join in. And by join in, I mean for the most part keep up and actually ride as a group, not solo, I don't need any forum for.that.
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Just like anyone else Hope, you will get better and keeping up will just seem to happen.
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Whats the point if I'm gonna be left to self navigate i might as well do my own thing.
Isn't that what MSTA is about....self navigation & riding your own ride? Unless I'm wrong.
If so please....someone let me know. I am aware there is a social aspect to it as well.
And a big part of why i joined this forum and don't go on a ZG ride is due to the reputation this forum has for riding safely but still having a good time.
I'll have to sit down when I have an afternoon to kill & read the rest of this but the quotes here made me think of a couple things.
We do ride safe & have a good time but I do agree that maybe there is a need for an additional category.
If you look at other forums they have separate events & rides sections which may help here.
That way if a person wants to post a meet & greet type ride they can do so in the events category.
But if a person wants to spank the ABC's at trip digits it would be posted in the rides category & labeled as such.
I know I haven't read the rest of everything here so sorry if I covered something that was already mentioned.
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Ray (from his other thread)---"Finally, unlike other forums without the history and establishment of the MSTA, this forum is not about creating or establishing a new club or being a part of a forum run for private profit. It is the MN-MSTA's hope that participating in this forum and on MN-MSTA rides will cause people to become dues paying MSTA members. "
So with "members" of mn-msta forum who have no intention of ever becoming dues paying members of MSTA or attending any regional or national events........Well My take is they are here for no reason other than to use us....(well okay there may be some "feeling out" period, but how long? How many rides? How much actual participation?)
Why not pay your dues and join if you agree or go away if you don't? Is that the correct take on this?
This is only one issue, and it is getting sidetracked (like it always does) about the safety aspects of our rides....which by default are MSTA rides I would gather---since MN-MSTA and its forum is a subsidiary of MSTA proper...
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SO THOSE OF US NOT WANTING TO BECOME 'DUES PAYING' MEMBERS OF AN AMA AFFILIATE NEED TO LEAVE RIGHT?
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Ray (from his other thread)---"Finally, unlike other forums without the history and establishment of the MSTA, this forum is not about creating or establishing a new club or being a part of a forum run for private profit. It is the MN-MSTA's hope that participating in this forum and on MN-MSTA rides will cause people to become dues paying MSTA members. "
So with "members" of mn-msta forum who have no intention of ever becoming dues paying members of MSTA or attending any regional or national events........Well My take is they are here for no reason other than to use us....(well okay there may be some "feeling out" period, but how long? How many rides? How much actual participation?)
Why not pay your dues and join if you agree or go away if you don't? Is that the correct take on this?
This is only one issue, and it is getting sidetracked (like it always does) about the safety aspects of our rides....which by default are MSTA rides I would gather---since MN-MSTA and its forum is a subsidiary of MSTA proper...
As long as folks participate in the forum and MN-MSTA rides respecting that it is an MSTA forum and they are MN-MSTA rides they are more than welcome to stay and participate as long as they like.
Where we have had trouble in the past is where people have somehow thought that as members of the forum they had a say in how things were run and that this included disagreeing and disparaging how the MSTA does things. At one point in the past, some forum members even suggested that the MSTA folks be thrown off the forum. When informed that the forum was an MSTA forum, they wondered when it had become an MSTA forum and were surprised when they found out it had always been one.
As long as people understand and support the MSTA way of doing things and the ideas behind the club, they are kindred riders whether they pay dues or not. These folks may never pay dues, but they may introduce others who share our notion and preferences for riding to the club who may become members. As PKPK mentioned, he was introduced to the club by word of mouth and this still remains the principle way people get introduced to the club, word of mouth between like minded riders.
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Ray (from his other thread)---"Finally, unlike other forums without the history and establishment of the MSTA, this forum is not about creating or establishing a new club or being a part of a forum run for private profit. It is the MN-MSTA's hope that participating in this forum and on MN-MSTA rides will cause people to become dues paying MSTA members. "
So with "members" of mn-msta forum who have no intention of ever becoming dues paying members of MSTA or attending any regional or national events........Well My take is they are here for no reason other than to use us....(well okay there may be some "feeling out" period, but how long? How many rides? How much actual participation?)
Why not pay your dues and join if you agree or go away if you don't? Is that the correct take on this?
This is only one issue, and it is getting sidetracked (like it always does) about the safety aspects of our rides....which by default are MSTA rides I would gather---since MN-MSTA and its forum is a subsidiary of MSTA proper...
As long as folks participate in the forum and MN-MSTA rides respecting that it is an MSTA forum and they are MN-MSTA rides they are more than welcome to stay and participate as long as they like.
Where we have had trouble in the past is where people have somehow thought that as members of the forum they had a say in how things were run and that this included disagreeing and disparaging how the MSTA does things. At one point in the past, some forum members even suggested that the MSTA folks be thrown off the forum. When informed that the forum was an MSTA forum, they wondered when it had become an MSTA forum and were surprised when they found out it had always been one.
As long as people understand and support the MSTA way of doing things and the ideas behind the club, they are kindred riders whether they pay dues or not. These folks may never pay dues, but they may introduce others who share our notion and preferences for riding to the club who may become members. As PKPK mentioned, he was introduced to the club by word of mouth and this still remains the principle way people get introduced to the club, word of mouth between like minded riders.
So devils advocate..........what about the non like minded riders?
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SO THOSE OF US NOT WANTING TO BECOME 'DUES PAYING' MEMBERS OF AN AMA AFFILIATE NEED TO LEAVE RIGHT?
This is a good question. I have looked at being a MSTA paying member but I cant see any benefit to it at all.
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OK,I GUESS THAT MEANS MY MONDAY PUTTS ARE WELCOME AS LONG AS I DON'T TRY TO CONVERT EVERYONE TO MY SOCIALIST/ANARCHIST/PAGAN POINT OF VIEW.GJ ::) ???
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So devils advocate..........what about the non like minded riders?
Think about it like a church. Everyone is welcome no matter what their faith is as long as they are respectful of the church. Churches would get no where if all they did was preach and/or serve the already converted.
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OK,I GUESS THAT MEANS MY MONDAY PUTTS ARE WELCOME AS LONG AS I DON'T TRY TO CONVERT EVERYONE TO MY SOCIALIST/ANARCHIST/PAGAN POINT OF VIEW.GJ ::) ???
Convert away. As best as I can tell socialism, anarchy and paganism in no way conflicts with the MSTA riding approach or philosophy.
OTOH, I personally find the USE OF ALL CAPS mildly annoying. ;D
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I certainly am not looking to kick you off....if that is what you think/believe.
I was simply asking a question based on Rays explanation.
Of course there are a few dozen I know do not belong here and would love to see them go...Kicked off or willingly (big shocker right?)
I am all for having a variety of rides on a variety of days too...As long as they uphold the principals of the organization and most importantly know how to ride and ride pretty damn well, regardless if it is +0 or +25...
Triple digits and hard braking and asspacking and crossing the centerline (using the road as a racetrack) are what those other forum riders do.....those people ( as referenced above) are all members of those forums anyways--why don't they just stay there and leave the adults to ride here in peace. There is absolutely no reason for them to be here, except they use us to gather routes, organize and be "led"
That is one of my biggest complaints---too many idiots who think they know it all and come here and ruin nearly every ride they attend, put lives in danger (not just there own) and give this club a very bad appearance and reputation....
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Think about it like a church. Everyone is welcome no matter what their faith is as long as they are respectful of the church. Churches would get no where if all they did was preach and/or serve the already converted.
Uh-uh, how long until the koolaid comes out?
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I'm happy to pay the MSTA dues, it's worth it just to get the news letters thoughout the year. It's always fun to dream about and go on some of the trips and events they put on.
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I have looked at being a MSTA paying member but I cant see any benefit to it at all.
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This is a valid point. Why. I didn't join for some time either. Earlier there were more dues paying rides now we have only one for this area. If I remember on the old format there was listed closed and open to other rider rides. I think this changed when MNSBR started. I think we could have at least one more closed ride a year to start with, say the Rockton ride maybe.
I'm just rambling here but I have ridden maybe all of these roads over the years but because we have the internet the info get out to every one fast and easy. So these routes that we take are being used more by others. Last year on the Swan ride we road a lot of roads we take all the time but their were others that have never been on any of them but 35 and 61 if you can believe that. These people would maybe joint to learn these roads, they did give to a charity to ride so why not join.
For me I join because Ray came on one of my rides he then showed me that you can ride the bike with out braking the throttle cable on these rides. In fact I even get less tickets now. I join because when you go to one of these pay to ride events you are with a differant group of riders. These are truly die hard bikers and you can see it when you look at their bikes and how they dress. When you see them you find out that you are still learning. They have already been there and tried that and done that sort of thing. They don't take the car to work they live on the bike.
MSTA does stress safety more than others that for sure. They always gave me crap for not wearing anything but a helmet. No one ever told me I couldn't ride along but I have been called a squid many a time. Even Paul post once about a picture he saw of me at the Tail. He says BOOTS BOOTS VINCE IS WEARING BOOTS. I finally bought some boots. Squid had finally got to me.
Well maybe we could make some changes and see how they work. Try one for a year and if it don't change it and go back. Then try something else. One of the big changes I like was the change to this format.
One last thing, should I change my forum name to speed freak of just leave it the same. Lol.
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I certainly am not looking to kick you off....if that is what you think/believe.
I was simply asking a question based on Rays explanation.
Of course there are a few dozen I know do not belong here and would love to see them go...Kicked off or willingly (big shocker right?)
I am all for having a variety of rides on a variety of days too...As long as they uphold the principals of the organization and most importantly know how to ride and ride pretty damn well, regardless if it is +0 or +25...
Triple digits and hard braking and asspacking and crossing the centerline (using the road as a racetrack) are what those other forum riders do.....those people ( as referenced above) are all members of those forums anyways--why don't they just stay there and leave the adults to ride here in peace. There is absolutely no reason for them to be here, except they use us to gather routes, organize and be "led"
That is one of my biggest complaints---too many idiots who think they know it all and come here and ruin nearly every ride they attend, put lives in danger (not just there own) and give this club a very bad appearance and reputation....
While personally triple digits, hard braking and crossing the center line to allow me to successfully navigate a turn are not things I enjoy doing, clearly they are riding practices that some others practice. Some are successful in riding this way for long periods of time, some are not. I personally stay away from these people, but there are other MSTA members who do not. The club is not here to tell others how to ride unless the way the others ride endangers other members. When a rider's riding endangers others, they should be asked to leave.
Typically, what members have done when these people show up on rides is:
- let them go out first and don't follow them as part of their group
- if they are in your group, tell them to pass or get off of your ass
- slow down when leading them to the point they pass before a route change and then do not wait for them at the route change
- not provide mechanical assistance to them in the event they need mechanical assistance
- ignore them socially, with holding the group attention they often seek
- decline to allow these people to be part of riding groups they lead
- decline to show up for rides these people post on the forum
Most often, the people who like to ride like asshats simply get bored with the way we ride and stop showing up for rides. In the one situation where I saw a group of MSTA members confront a group for riding like asshats on an MSTA ride, the people riding like asshats vowed to come back and ruin every single MSTA ride in the future. Confronting the irrational failed to make them see reason or be me more rational. It had the opposite effect.
I have not observed asshats ruining the rides I've been on. Certainly there have been folks on rides who I personally was not very interested in riding with, who did not ride the way I like to ride, but these people did not ruin my ride and I assume the people who rode with them we're okay with the way the riding went or they would have elected to ride with different people.
Just as with riding, the club encourages everyone to make their own decisions on what they think is the right way to ride and who and how they ride with others. The club in no way wants to dictate how everyone has to ride, although it is clear that the vast majority of members prefer to ride the Pace.
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Think about it like a church. Everyone is welcome no matter what their faith is as long as they are respectful of the church. Churches would get no where if all they did was preach and/or serve the already converted.
Uh-uh, how long until the koolaid comes out?
The MSTA is an older crowd so it is more typically Fat Tire or Spotted Cow at MSTA rallies...
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LOL. I meant koolaid as in Jim Jones, not koolaid as in church bake sale.
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So devils advocate..........what about the non like minded riders?
Think about it like a church. Everyone is welcome no matter what their faith is as long as they are respectful of the church. Churches would get no where if all they did was preach and/or serve the already converted.
We are not here to convert.........Or atleast everything I read and have heard indicates this.
We are here to ride with like minded (already converted) individuals. I do believe you say this yourself many times....But I know that is why I am here and about 16 other members who have sent me PM's, emails and texts....We already have a majority who want safe proficient sane riding that don't use the road as a reacetrack.....why allow the few to spoil it for the many
I have observed asshats (and so have you and Vince and D and Joel and Tony and Paul and Greg and others.....) ruining rides you have been on. Maybe your acceptance of nearly anything goes (seems to be what you are posting) has tainted your memory and view.
So yes we should eliminate the non converted IMO, they certainly are not following the standards set, the ideals and riding proficiency we strive for. They fit in to the beliefs and standards of other clubs far better...OH wait they already are members there too. Good they already have a home, elsewhere......
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GREG--- (and anyone who feels the need to know)
You know what....
A much more honest and complete answer to you about why I have changed my screen name;
Yes I am tired of obdurate and it has lost its luster. Yes I am poking a stick in the eye of someone else now....
But the biggest reason I don't want my real name up in lights here....
I am embarrassed at what is tolerated and accepted here as okay riding behavior and I don't want my customers to know that I ride with this group. They surely would surmise that I ride like what many of these idiot ride posting and videos show.
(judgemental, sure....we all make judgement decisions)
I hear about rides etc from customers many times a week. I have customers who talk about this forum or that and what they read here or there. Far too many have read what is on this forum and have never actually ridden with me, so until they actually have ridden with me and see how I truly ride---I don't want them jumping to conclusions that "racetrack" riding of triples and crossing the centerline and riding like an inexperienced douchebag is how I ride.
This forum has truly become an embarrassment of bad riding skills and no accountability or responsibility.
Can I change that? Not by myself.
Will it change? Only if people take a stand and make it change.
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Like me Lloyd I'm sure you have learned to be a good rider over the years. Most of what I have learned has come from riding with guys like you, so if you don't or won't ride with some of the people in question how will they learn? In my opinion it always works better to set an example than telling someone how crappy they are at something.
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So devils advocate..........what about the non like minded riders?
Think about it like a church. Everyone is welcome no matter what their faith is as long as they are respectful of the church. Churches would get no where if all they did was preach and/or serve the already converted.
We are not here to convert.........Or atleast everything I read and have heard indicates this.
We are here to ride with like minded (already converted) individuals. I do believe you say this yourself many times....But I know that is why I am here and about 16 other members who have sent me PM's, emails and texts....We already have a majority who want safe proficient sane riding that don't use the road as a reacetrack.....why allow the few to spoil it for the many
I have observed asshats (and so have you and Vince and D and Joel and Tony and Paul and Greg and others.....) ruining rides you have been on. Maybe your acceptance of nearly anything goes (seems to be what you are posting) has tainted your memory and view.
So yes we should eliminate the non converted IMO, they certainly are not following the standards set, the ideals and riding proficiency we strive for. They fit in to the beliefs and standards of other clubs far better...OH wait they already are members there too. Good they already have a home, elsewhere......
Lloyd,
As you're prone to say ... Your views are yours alone. Please don't include me in your presumptions about how I do or don't feel about a subject. mkay? :)
Thanks
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It is hard to turn back the clock and maybe we have told others about this forum to easily and grown to fast. This may of seemed like good idea at the time. I am guilty of this. I have in the past posted rides on other forums. And I know some didn't like it and now we ask that this not be done. I did this I thought to show the others how we ride and to do it safely. They are young and when you get so many of them together at one time they learn nothing. Now if I bring some one I call them and ask them to come but just them. So an invite on a one on one is really the right way to do it and maybe they should stick with you. They may join latter and maybe not. Some don't care for the long rides, some don't care for the narrow roads, but I think this just comes down to there skill level.
Maybe a few others could chime in and say something and get some more ideas out there. I would like to see some more closed rides. Right now we have one we pay to ride and all others ore just open to what ever. So maybe one that is close to only dues paying but still free to ride and then on from there. Thoughts.
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Typically, what members have done when these people show up on rides is:
- let them go out first and don't follow them as part of their group
- if they are in your group, tell them to pass or get off of your ass
- slow down when leading them to the point they pass before a route change and then do not wait for them at the route change
- not provide mechanical assistance to them in the event they need mechanical assistance
- ignore them socially, with holding the group attention they often seek
- decline to allow these people to be part of riding groups they lead
- decline to show up for rides these people post on the forum
I feel OK doing those things, but where the problem comes up is that I don't feel OK waving my middle finger as I go past a crashed biker. To me the ultimate warning would be, "You crash and we're not stopping to help you, medical emergency or not!"
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Even Paul post once about a picture he saw of me at the Tail. He says BOOTS BOOTS VINCE IS WEARING BOOTS. I finally bought some boots.
Damn proud of you too. I know, I know, the tennies gave you that extra sensitivity so you can better finesse clutch and braking. But it doesn't take much searching on the web to find horror stories of ground down ankles and feet from lowsides. Something like that could be a life-changer that you don't want.
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I'm with Vince on the one on one idea, when you get more than one of these hooligans they can make there own competition.
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Maybe we can look into utilizing the same sort of idea that the CRA uses for it's newer racers? It's call "Adopt a Newbie" Perhaps pairing up a seasoned rider with a newer rider would allow said NEWB to shadow for a ride or two and learn some of the finer aspects of what we strive to be.
I know that I have at times brought a newer or less experienced rider along with me on some of these rides. I tend to let them know the details prior to the ride and talk about riding thier own ride and pace. Oftentimes after the ride, we'll get together and let him/her ask questions and talk about what they thought of the ride and most importantly if they had fun. I may mention things that I saw that perhaps they wouldn't readily notice themselves and offer some pointers/tips. I won't hesitate to ask or suggest that we drop back or even leave a certain ride if I feel that the said rider is having difficulties with the pace and/or the conditions. It's about the safety and comfortabilty of ALL the riders on said ride.
Of course, I'm by no means an expert, but I know that having someone take an interest in you as a rider is very beneficial, helps you grow and provides you with a mentor that you are comfortable with. I know that I appreciated being able to ride with more experienced riders when I first began riding back in the late 80's. I still do and I think we all can learn something if only we keep an open mind to doing so.
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Typically, what members have done when these people show up on rides is:
- let them go out first and don't follow them as part of their group
- if they are in your group, tell them to pass or get off of your ass
- slow down when leading them to the point they pass before a route change and then do not wait for them at the route change
- not provide mechanical assistance to them in the event they need mechanical assistance
- ignore them socially, with holding the group attention they often seek
- decline to allow these people to be part of riding groups they lead
- decline to show up for rides these people post on the forum
I feel OK doing those things, but where the problem comes up is that I don't feel OK waving my middle finger as I go past a crashed biker. To me the ultimate warning would be, "You crash and we're not stopping to help you, medical emergency or not!"
The protocol that some members have used in the past is to stop and make sure there is no critical need for medical care and then to simply decline to provide mechanical assistance.
We have also posted in the past on ride listings that since everyone needs to be able to self navigate off a route sheet and have a way to carry a route sheet that participants should not expect group leaders to stop and wait for others at every route change. Without making this stipulation we found the vast majority of riders show up for rides without a means of carrying a route and/or the ability to self navigate off a route sheet. Loosing people by not waiting for them when they disappear off a group is so tempting, particularly when they blow by you at warp speed when you are leading.
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Typically, what members have done when these people show up on rides is:
- let them go out first and don't follow them as part of their group
- if they are in your group, tell them to pass or get off of your ass
- slow down when leading them to the point they pass before a route change and then do not wait for them at the route change
- not provide mechanical assistance to them in the event they need mechanical assistance
- ignore them socially, with holding the group attention they often seek
- decline to allow these people to be part of riding groups they lead
- decline to show up for rides these people post on the forum
I feel OK doing those things, but where the problem comes up is that I don't feel OK waving my middle finger as I go past a crashed biker. To me the ultimate warning would be, "You crash and we're not stopping to help you, medical emergency or not!"
The protocol that some members have used in the past is to stop and make sure there is no critical need for medical care and then to simply decline to provide mechanical assistance.
We have also posted in the past on ride listings that since everyone needs to be able to self navigate off a route sheet and have a way to carry a route sheet that participants should not expect group leaders to stop and wait for others at every route change. Without making this stipulation we found the vast majority of riders show up for rides without a means of carrying a route and/or the ability to self navigate off a route sheet. Loosing people by not waiting for them when they disappear off a group is so tempting, particularly when they blow by you at warp speed when you are leading.
Referencing what's highlighted above. I did exactly this same thing 2 years ago on a multiform ride. I led the first group, Roger led the 2nd and I think Vince lead the 3rd. 2 younger guys in Rogers group wanted to ride a bit faster, so they passed Roger and caught up with my group. As we were descending into Money Creek on Cty Rd 26, one of these 2 guys ran off the road during those nice twisties as you descend into Money Creek, and his buddy target fixated and followed him into the ditch.
Both bikes were in very rough shape but the riders were OK. Both guys had money and cell phones, so we gave them rides down to that RV park at the bottom of the hill, and left. I had absolutely zero guilt in doing so.
Now if they had been injured, I would have made other choices.
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It is hard to turn back the clock and maybe we have told others about this forum to easily and grown to fast. This may of seemed like good idea at the time. I am guilty of this. I have in the past posted rides on other forums. And I know some didn't like it and now we ask that this not be done. I did this I thought to show the others how we ride and to do it safely. They are young and when you get so many of them together at one time they learn nothing. Now if I bring some one I call them and ask them to come but just them. So an invite on a one on one is really the right way to do it and maybe they should stick with you. They may join latter and maybe not. Some don't care for the long rides, some don't care for the narrow roads, but I think this just comes down to there skill level.
Maybe a few others could chime in and say something and get some more ideas out there. I would like to see some more closed rides. Right now we have one we pay to ride and all others ore just open to what ever. So maybe one that is close to only dues paying but still free to ride and then on from there. Thoughts.
I'm with Vince on the one on one idea, when you get more than one of these hooligans they can make there own competition.
Maybe we can look into utilizing the same sort of idea that the CRA uses for it's newer racers? It's call "Adopt a Newbie" Perhaps pairing up a seasoned rider with a newer rider would allow said NEWB to shadow for a ride or two and learn some of the finer aspects of what we strive to be.
I know that I have at times brought a newer or less experienced rider along with me on some of these rides. I tend to let them know the details prior to the ride and talk about riding thier own ride and pace. Oftentimes after the ride, we'll get together and let him/her ask questions and talk about what they thought of the ride and most importantly if they had fun. I may mention things that I saw that perhaps they wouldn't readily notice themselves and offer some pointers/tips. I won't hesitate to ask or suggest that we drop back or even leave a certain ride if I feel that the said rider is having difficulties with the pace and/or the conditions. It's about the safety and comfortabilty of ALL the riders on said ride.
Of course, I'm by no means an expert, but I know that having someone take an interest in you as a rider is very beneficial, helps you grow and provides you with a mentor that you are comfortable with. I know that I appreciated being able to ride with more experienced riders when I first began riding back in the late 80's. I still do and I think we all can learn something if only we keep an open mind to doing so.
We no longer cross post rides and we no longer broadly promote the forum/club because the number of new riders all too often overwhelm the number of riders who know what the deal is.
As PKPK (Paul) mentioned that he found out about the group via word of mouth, this is how we expect people to find out about the group today. We also expect that anybody people encourage to come to a ride will be "taken care of" by the person who encourages them to come to a ride and to consider the folks who come to the forum and rides as a reflection of themselves.
Closed rides are always an option and any MN-MSTA member can organize a closed ride with the support of the club. Closed rides can be for dues paying members only, or for dues paying members and their guests with the expectation that a dues paying member will be responsible for taking care of whoever they invite to a closed MN-MSTA ride. There is at this time only one planned closed ride.
The club runs a Member Assistance Partners program at its AMA sanctioned rallies which partners new members with established members to help new member orient to the club. As an event organizer, I can say from experience this is the most difficult program to run at an event. There are always more new members who want to take advantage of the program than there are volunteers to help them. What is worse is I have seen when the people who invite riders to MSTA rides are allowed to be abstracted from the people they invite it is particularly nasty. A member once told me on a ride I needed to take care of someone they invited because they didn't want to ride with them. When you don't tie the people who invite riders to rides to the people who invite them you enable people to do this kind of crap.
While we try to run MSTA rides in a fairly consistent fashion, there will always be non-MSTA rides which get posted to the forum. These may be rides organized by members or organized by people who think they may be of interest to members. One of things which may not be obvious to people is that the MN-MSTA has no way to control these rides and does not provide support for these rides. Any issues with these rides need to be addressed to and by the organizer(s) of the ride. To state the obvious, when a ride is not labelled an MSTA ride, it is not an MSTA ride.
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I personally think that if it is a group ride, it's a group ride. I think waiting to make sure everyone has made it through the last leg of the ride is very important. I know when we do group rides on sleds at each stop we make sure that everyone is there. If things go wrong for a rider (and they do go wrong) I for one would be pretty pissed if you all just left me lay there to bleed out. These are very dangerous sports we participate in and if you think the most important thing when someone turns up missing is that they can read and follow a route sheet! Come on you guys, if that is truely how you think, again I have picked the wrong people to ride with.
I'm pretty sure that most of you I ride with on here would not leave another rider behind. For those that would leave a fellow rider behind, I suggest you come riding sleds with us and you will understand the true meaning of group riding.
I ride with all of you because I want to be part of a group ride. If I wanted to ride my own ride I would ride by myself. I do know what you mean by riding your own ride, but I do ride with all of you because I want to be part of this group.
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Hopefully this post will help folks figure out whether a ride posted on the forum will be appropriate for them to join.
This forum places the onus on riders to be responsible for making sure they are prepared and capable of joining a ride posted on the forum. Over a decade of running group rides, the forum believes that first and foremost ride safety is the responsibility of each rider on a ride, not the group, and not the ride organizer or a ride leader. The default assumption of folks in this forum is if you have an accident is that it was your fault.
Everyone is expected to ride their own ride. This means if people are riding faster or slower than you want to, that's fine. This means you should not follow with a sub 2 second gap so you can follow the line of the rider in front you. No one is expected to keep up. Everyone is expected to have a way of carrying a route sheet and to be capable of using a route sheet to self navigate the ride route. To ride your own ride you should not be totally reliant on keeping up with other riders to ride the ride route.
We ride the Pace (click here to read about it ([url]http://mn-msta.com/index.php/page,10.html[/url])). Hitting triple digits and using heavy braking on rides demonstrate a lack of skill and a good street riding attitude.
The preceding is the default expectation for rides on the forum. Deviations from this default will usually be noted by the organizer of a ride in their ride post. If you have a question about a specific ride, post it to the ride posting. For more on our rides, please read our MSTA Ride Guide - Read Before Doing an MSTA Ride. ([url]http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,6.0.html[/url])
I think it is important to note the section I have made bold in Ray's post. This allows deviations from the traditional "pace" ride that MSTA encourages. I enjoy an occasional anti-pace ride (hard acceleration and hard braking). If people want to put these kinds of rides into a separate subforum I have no objection. I don't think it is necessary.
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Maybe we can look into utilizing the same sort of idea that the CRA uses for it's newer racers? It's call "Adopt a Newbie" Perhaps pairing up a seasoned rider with a newer rider would allow said NEWB to shadow for a ride or two and learn some of the finer aspects of what we strive to be.
I know that I have at times brought a newer or less experienced rider along with me on some of these rides. I tend to let them know the details prior to the ride and talk about riding thier own ride and pace. Oftentimes after the ride, we'll get together and let him/her ask questions and talk about what they thought of the ride and most importantly if they had fun. I may mention things that I saw that perhaps they wouldn't readily notice themselves and offer some pointers/tips. I won't hesitate to ask or suggest that we drop back or even leave a certain ride if I feel that the said rider is having difficulties with the pace and/or the conditions. It's about the safety and comfortabilty of ALL the riders on said ride.
Of course, I'm by no means an expert, but I know that having someone take an interest in you as a rider is very beneficial, helps you grow and provides you with a mentor that you are comfortable with. I know that I appreciated being able to ride with more experienced riders when I first began riding back in the late 80's. I still do and I think we all can learn something if only we keep an open mind to doing so.
I like this idea, I think that would solve the issues that have been raised. This would keep two "hooligans" from riding with each other and doing the passing that Greg was talking about. Tell them at the beginning of the ride you follow that bike don't pass that bike, it would also allow for the "mentoring" as D talked about. Thus creating better riders. This would be the ride Leader(s) responsibility to pair the riders up, but I do think this would be a good idea.
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I personally think that if it is a group ride, it's a group ride. I think waiting to make sure everyone has made it through the last leg of the ride is very important. I know when we do group rides on sleds at each stop we make sure that everyone is there. If things go wrong for a rider (and they do go wrong) I for one would be pretty pissed if you all just left me lay there to bleed out. These are very dangerous sports we participate in and if you think the most important thing when someone turns up missing is that they can read and follow a route sheet! Come on you guys, if that is truely how you think, again I have picked the wrong people to ride with.
I'm pretty sure that most of you I ride with on here would not leave another rider behind. For those that would leave a fellow rider behind, I suggest you come riding sleds with us and you will understand the true meaning of group riding.
I ride with all of you because I want to be part of a group ride. If I wanted to ride my own ride I would ride by myself. I do know what you mean by riding your own ride, but I do ride with all of you because I want to be part of this group.
I do have to agree with Mike on this... I know that I go on rides because I like the comraderie we share. I will always make sure that we don't leave anyone behind and oftentimes I'll hang at the back of the pack to ensure that there isn't too much gap between the group and that last person. I've also been known to go back looking for someone if I notice that they have dropped off the pace. You never know what could have happened to them. It's just common courtesy and respect for another fellow rider.
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I am new to the MN-MSTA, joined last year. The reason I joined was because none of my friends ride and I wanted to meet others that did. Since joining, I have been on 3 rides with members. One was the Swan Ride, where I met a bunch of riders. There I rode for a long time with Andy, by ourselves, through some awesome roads in WI. At the end, I had a great ride back home from Slippery’s with Andy, Vince, Joel and Marty. On Sat 10Mar, I rode for a short jaunt between Wabasha and Lake City with Denyse, Joel, Vince and Lloyd. It was short but sweet. On Sunday 18Mar, I joined the large group that everyone is talking about here. For 95% of the ride, I followed the group Ray was leading. I did not see anything different from how the 3 rides were ridden. There were comments made by a few of the attendees that they were surprised that no one crashed or that there weren’t any tickets issued. I believe the context of the comments made about crashing, were aimed more at the condition of the roads than at the speeds of the ride. I estimate that 15% of the roads were covered with sand, making some stretches tricky and dangerous. As for tickets issued, even riding at a moderate pace between 70-80MPH, can get you a ticket on all the roads we rode. We were lucky that there were no cops around.
Again, I am new to the group but I would like to give my .02¢ on this thread’s topic and the sub threads that have crept in it. The op asks whether or not you should join a posted group ride. My belief is that any member wanting to join the posted ride, should be allowed to go. The leader/organizer should then set the tone at the onset. From there, all riders should conform to the stated course and outcome of the ride as per MN-MSTA. The hardest thing for a leader to do is to have to discipline or call an issue to someone’s attention. We expect perfection from ourselves and having to come down hard on someone else is not comfortable, but that is what leadership is all about. If there are any deviants, the leader should ask them to leave the ride or discontinue their unwanted behavior. I would welcome it if someone corrected me for whatever I was doing wrong, since two the reasons I joined MN-MSTA, was to become a better rider and represent the riding community well.
As per joining MN-MSTA, my humble opinion is that nothing should be changed. Through the forum, I’ve met a decent group of people. If I had to pay first to join, I probably would not have. Why pay for something that might not work for you? Now, after a few rides, I am considering becoming a full paying member in the near future. Last Sunday was a great ride. Sitting down and eating ice cream with Ray, Rex, Mike Duluth, Vince, Dave and Brent was an awesome way to end the day. I am looking forward to some more rides, so please keep posting them!!!
Jamey
P.S. Thnx to all that have put together and have made what MN-MSTA is today...
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At first, I thought Ray was talking about leaving people to fend for themselves if they deserved it (wads who crash from recklessness or who refuse to learn how to use a route sheet and simply want to follow someone else's tailight.) If Ray is referring to simply making a route sheet as a policy of "everyone for themselves", then I am in complete disagreement.
I do think there is a certain level of responsibility to each other on a group ride. I've been on a few rides where the person in the back crashed and if I didn't keep track of them, it would have been a very long afternoon for them. Same goes for the wad that blows past me, then misses the turn. I'll sit at the intersection and wait until they come back (usually with their tail between their legs.) Then it's a matter of having them hook up with a faster group at lunchtime (after the warning that I won't wait for them again).
I go back to my first years riding with the old HSTA. Yeah, they gave me route sheets. No, I didn't follow them very good. I was so lost in some of the areas we were riding, I could have easily run out of gas trying to figure my way out.
In Ray's defense, I think he is tired of constantly being the leader and is maybe getting a bit jaded. I still wonder if he wasn't simply referring to asshats who were not going along with the spirit of a group ride.
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Whats the point if I'm gonna be left to self navigate i might as well do my own thing.
Isn't that what MSTA is about....self navigation & riding your own ride? Unless I'm wrong.
If so please....someone let me know. I am aware there is a social aspect to it as well.
And a big part of why i joined this forum and don't go on a ZG ride is due to the reputation this forum has for riding safely but still having a good time.
I'll have to sit down when I have an afternoon to kill & read the rest of this but the quotes here made me think of a couple things.
We do ride safe & have a good time but I do agree that maybe there is a need for an additional category.
If you look at other forums they have separate events & rides sections which may help here.
That way if a person wants to post a meet & greet type ride they can do so in the events category.
But if a person wants to spank the ABC's at trip digits it would be posted in the rides category & labeled as such.
I know I haven't read the rest of everything here so sorry if I covered something that was already mentioned.
Perhaps you should read the thread before you comment if you have no idea what's going on....
I was referring specifically about group rides so to say that self navigation and riding my own ride is what its about is a waste of my time to even read your post. I enjoy the social aspect of group rides and riding with others, if I wanna ride solo I can do that anytime. ::) also this is not a discussion about seperating rides from events. It's about having a different ride section dedicated to people like you who wanna "spank twisties at trip digits" and those who wanna be safer.
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We sure talk about a lot of differant things here. I would like to say even if we might hint at it that we never on any ride that I have been on that we left anybody behind, crashed or lost. In fact on one ride a biker went off the road and into a swamp and he wasn't even riding with us. And Lloyd went out into the water and got the bike out and back on the road and got it running for him to ride it home. Now this surely doesn't sound like he or us don't care, we all do. We are just trying to keep crashing to zero. It runes everyone ride. If we keep our safety margin high this is doable.
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What you see reading through the last couple of pages of posts is general agreement on what is ideal. The agreement may not be agreement in specifics but it is agreement in concept.
What is not agreed upon is what to do about things when they are not ideal.
For example, we all know that with a stipulation that everyone have a way to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate, anyone should be able to ride at whatever pace they want. They should not be reliant on a leader to show them the way. What experience has shown us is that when we tell people that they need to have a way to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate and also tell them that we will not leave them behind, that we will wait for them at every turn, the vast majority don't bother with having a way to carry a route sheet which they can self navigate from. Experience has shown us that when you make it too easy for people to ride without a route sheet or the ability to self navigate they simply don't carry a route sheet or develop the ability to self navigate.
When we posted rides and up front told people that leaders would not wait at route changes for everyone, attendance on rides dropped and compliance with the stipulation that people carry route sheets and be able to self navigate went up. People took the requirement to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate seriously. On these rides, no one left anyone behind, everyone made sure that everyone showed up at every route change, but had anyone been left behind, I would have expected them to be better prepared to self navigate and to not have blamed anyone else for their situation than themselves.
Realize also that even if a group leader decided that they weren't going to wait for everyone at every route change, that if everyone in the group had a route sheet and was capable of self navigating, that any or all of the followers in the group could just let the group leader ride off by themselves while they waited for the rest of the group. Again the idea at the bottom of all this is to enable everybody to ride their own ride, not to force everybody to ride the same way. Also realize, anyone who wants to take care of people who show up on rides without a way to carry a route sheet or self navigate can do so if they please. No one is stopping them from doing what they think is right.
So let's look at an opposite situation and see what people think should be done. On the ride 2 Sundays ago, one of the participants passed me while I was leading. I'm pretty sure the reason he passed me was he wanted to go faster. A turn on the route came up after a while and I turned. Should we have waited for the guy who passed or not? Did the guy who passed ever make mention to the people in the group that he was sorry for passing everyone when he had no idea where he was going? Do you think the guy will ever pass the leader on a ride again when he has no idea where he is going? Think he'll carry a route sheet in the future and be able to self navigate? The answers to these questions depends to some degree on whether we waited or not.
It is not that we want to say uninviting things like "we won't wait for people at every route change". When we said this, we said this for effect, to get people to pay real attention to the requirement that ride participants carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate off of it. When we didn't say this, we not only got people not carrying route sheets and being able to self navigate, we got people saying we should do a better job of not leaving people behind by providing sweep riders. Saying we won't leave people behind created the notion that not only do people not need to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate, but that organizers needed to do a better job of supporting riders who ignored the requirement to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate.
Lastly, Democracy does not work for determining what ride organizers and group leaders should do with respect to running rides. Followers always significantly out number leaders and organizers of rides. When asked whether organizers and leaders of rides should do things like wait for everyone at every route change or provide sweep riders or moderate their pace so it is easier for everyone to follow or should make sure do any number of things to make it easier and safer to be a follower, the vote is always going to be biased towards saying the leaders and organizers should do more since there are allot more followers than leaders. Over the past decade, every time the question is put forth to the group whether organizers and leaders should do more for the group, the majority opinion has been the organizers and leaders should do more. I don't think this is the answer, it is just a reflection of the lopsided numbers between organizers, leaders and followers.
Earlier in this thread I asked the question, when a group rides too fast and/or recklessly who is to blame.
If you think the organizers and leaders are to blame, since all of you have self identified yourselves as being capable of self navigating off a route sheet, step up and organize a ride or lead a group. You're capable of it. One of the things I like about riding with MSTA members is almost invariably, any and everyone one of them is capable of leading a group. One of the best things on a group ride is to have someone else in the group decide they want to ride faster, pass and take over leading the group or decide you want to ride faster and pass and take over the group lead. Sometimes someone will pass and begin riding faster and some of a group will go with them and some will not. No big deal, when everyone is riding their own ride, there is no pressure to ride at the same pace. When you ride with a group of people all of whom are capable of leading, you are clearly riding with a group of people who get riding their own ride. It is a wonderful feeling to ride with people like this.
If you are a follower (not ready or capable of leading) and think the followers are to blame, then talk to the other followers about their riding or pick other riding partners. At the very least, vote with your presence in the group. If you think the leaders are to blame, then work on your skills and become capable of being a leader. If you don't like the way a group is riding, leave it.
If you think the responsibility is shared, then do your part as part of the group to keep the group from riding too fast or recklessly.
FWIW
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In fact on one ride a biker went off the road and into a swamp...
Thought you were gonna bring up my decision to attempt a little dual sporting during the frosty pumpkin ride a little while back :p
In order to reduce accidents people just need to know.
They need to know what the pace is like, they need to know what's expected of them as a rider, they need to know what to do and what not to do and they need to know that in the end of the day it's a lot more fun if everyone makes it home safe and sound.
I think a lot of riders come into Msta rides (and any group rides for that matter) not knowing this and thinking that they are invincible. By giving honest expectations and first had experience of rides and riders, a lot of crashes Could be prevented (mine included).
Another possible option (don't flame I'm just trying to contribute) would be to have a private rides section for dues paying members only that is not accessible to the public. By doing this, real speeds could be posted and it would really limit the number of people attending rides. I think this would reduce the problem an also help get more members because I'm sure a lot of people would be willing to pay the few measly dollars a year to get access to these rides.
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The problem with "riding your own ride", is there is no clear definition - what does it mean? As Paul implied, simply handing a "noob" a route sheet is pointless. Yes, I can follow a route sheet because I am experienced at doing so, but someone new to group riding puts them in a dangerous position as it takes their concentration away from "keeping up".
Fuck this elitest crap!
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Ray says it very well. It's very nice to have other leader. Ray and I and some others, I think there was 10 of us went on a trip last summer for 9 or 10 days. Every one took the lead at differant days and times of the day. It just couldn't have went any better. Every time I would lead we would miss the turn. I would have to pull over and explain to the guys that we pass the turn maybe 10 miles back. Now when your riding with others that know what is going on something like this happen. One of the guys has a map out already and says lets go this way and then here and then pick up the route here. Yea. This is why why did more miles and saw more than some others everyday. MSTA guys are great.
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The problem with "riding your own ride", is there is no clear definition - what does it mean? As Paul implied, simply handing a "noob" a route sheet is pointless. Yes, I can follow a route sheet because I am experienced at doing so, but someone new to group riding puts them in a dangerous position as it takes their concentration away from "keeping up".
Fuck this elitest crap!
Then offer an alternative, Tim.
Criticizing is so easy.
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The problem with "riding your own ride", is there is no clear definition - what does it mean? As Paul implied, simply handing a "noob" a route sheet is pointless. Yes, I can follow a route sheet because I am experienced at doing so, but someone new to group riding puts them in a dangerous position as it takes their concentration away from "keeping up".
Fuck this elitest crap!
From past experience it is clear our rides are not appropriate for noobs. If you're a noob to group riding, but are experienced at riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably not going to have any problems on a ride.
If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.
The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.
If you are a both a noob at group riding and riding twisty technically challenging roads you are really tempting fate on one of our rides.
Just like skiing. It isn't being with a group that presents the greatest challenge to skiers, it is the challenge of skiing ultra steep bumpy slopes. It is not like instructors clear the bunny slope of all skiers so they can instruct students.
When what is expected of riders participating in a ride is made clear and people elect to ignore these expectations they do so at their own peril. The fact that they choose to ignore what is clearly communicated to them is a text book example of what I call a personal problem. There is a point where a ride organizer's responsibility has to end and a ride participant's responsibility has to be held to account.
When you don't understand what someone tells you and you choose to not ask questions or try to find out what they meant, you choose to ignore what they said. As will all things people choose to ignore, they do so at their own peril. Ignorance of a law is not an accepted defense. Ignoring what volunteers who organize rides or lead groups say is not an acceptable excuse.
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I have no problem leading a ride when everyone's in an area none of us knows, or up here where I'm the one that knows the roads. But when I'm down there where you guys know all the roads, I don't care to lead at all. It is way more fun to just stay focused on ridin my bike and not have to worry where we are.
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If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.
The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.
That's not a very inviting attitude Ray. I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA. ;) C'mon, how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding!
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If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.
The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.
That's not a very inviting attitude Ray. I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA. ;) C'mon, how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding!
I get what Ray was saying. I only have a year joining and leading on some group rides from this forum, but I fell into the first category he spoke where I have experience on twisty roads but I was newish to group riding beyond riding with a couple close friends. My first group ride was the Tri-State Boogie last year.... I followed a little too closely and I have gotten better at that. No one told me I followed too close, I just learned from observing what looked good and bad during the group, and observing those who were the leaders. Overall I had a GREAT time.
My first 5 years of riding I may have thought I knew what I was doing but I really did not very well.
Years 5-10 I learned a lot about riding and controlling my bike. As I got more into the sport I spent a lot of time out riding by myself or with one or two friends. My skills increased quite a bit compared to my first 5 years. Now on my 14th riding season all I know is that I have much more to learn still than what I have accumulated so far.
If I were to join in with the average 'group' of riders here during my first 5 years I would of either had to ride back aways and felt nervous or pressured to try to keep up, or I would have attempted to keep closer to the others and may have (probably would have) made a bad mistake. I could have attempted to ride my own ride but not sure if I would have felt comfortable doing that, or I may not have enjoyed riding by myself in the back. Regardless, people would have been waiting for me or I would have not felt comfortable riding with that group.
I guess what I'm saying is that I think group rides are most enjoyable to me when I am able to ride with a part of the group who are at a similar pace of enjoyable riding. I do not mind and I typically always wait for the rest of the group to come together at a route change or a stop sign, however, I think riding in WI is funner when you can trust that everyone is capable and able to self-navigate or keep their headlights within your mirrors if they choose to. I have learned it's easy to lose people within a group. If I show up to a group ride where I knew the leader would be riding faster than I chose to, I would probably want to see if I had other riders similar to my pace so I could be within a separate grouping. This way, myself whether as a leader or a follower does not have to be dependent or overly responsible for anyone, nor would I complain later about the pace. I could ride my own ride and also be within a group. If one wants to dictate a group's pace, be a leader and advertise your own ride with distinct riding, anyone is welcome to do that I believe.
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If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.
The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.
That's not a very inviting attitude Ray. I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA. ;) C'mon, how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding!
+1
Earlier in the thread you said someone like me who can read a route sheet should have no problem attending a group ride but the above statement implies I shouldn't be here at all. You may not like the attitudes on other forums like zg and ta but at least they have always been welcoming to riders of all skill levels. And dues? Why would I pay dues to an organization I am not welcome in? I think I will stick to the old fashioned way of riding with friends by contacting them myself. Screw all these forums.
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If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.
The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.
That's not a very inviting attitude Ray. I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA. ;) C'mon, how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding!
Respectfully Paul .....Because (from first hand experience) no matter how hard the organizer tries to cover all the bases and provide a healthy and fun riding environment, someone invariable complains that :"this or that" just wasn't to their liking.
When was the last open forum ride you organized?
*edit* I do see you have a ride set for November ... and a footnote. My "fun day of riding" is quite different than yours (one is not better than the other, just different)
I like scuffing my 190's clear off the edge of the tire on roads I'm familiar with. How is a rider with different tastes going to like that trying to "keep up"? Just as I don't find it "fun" to trolly around southeastern Minnesota taking pictures there are other riders who don't enjoy the way I (and many others) ride. But if others do like that, great. And ONLY with route sheets and "riding your own ride" can both sets of motorcyclists have a "fun day of riding".
Respectfully
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I encourage everyone to come on the Slimy Crud ride in May (or Rogers ride mid April). The Slimy Crud ride usually has 20-30 folks show up. Sportbikes, sport-tourers, dual-sports, mopeds, the whole nine yards.
Riders break up naturally (really, it's a no-brainer when you see how it works) into groups of about 6-8 bikes per group ("riding your own ride" doesn't mean that you are automatically riding alone). The "faster" folks ride together, the sporttourers ride together, the dualsport do, and the mopes.
Everyone has a good day riding. From the kite flying picture takers to the 10% Outlaw 190's.
Everyone, come on this ride. The MSTA system works.
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Ahhh yes the reason I don't run or attend many group rides anymore. The people. The ones that pass the leader when they don't know where the next turn is. The riders out of their element that scare everybody or maybe even crash. The asshats doing wheelies on hwy 35 when everybody else knows it's a continuous speed trap. The Ducati owners that always need a ride home on a Jap bike :P
I really miss riding with some of you, zipping along at a good pace and seeing the bikes strung out behind you is always exciting.
Hope to see you out there this year, drive safe all!
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Respectfully Paul .....Because (from first hand experience) no matter how hard the organizer tries to cover all the bases and provide a healthy and fun riding environment, someone invariable complains that :"this or that" just wasn't to their liking.
When was the last open forum ride you organized?
*edit* and a footnote. My "fun day of riding" is quite different than yours (one is not better than the other, just different)
I like scuffing my 190's clear off the edge of the tire on roads I'm familiar with. How is a rider with different tastes going to like that? Just as I don't find it "fun" to trolly around southeastern Minnesota taking pictures. But if others do like that, great. And ONLY with route sheets and "riding your own ride" can both sets of motorcyclists have a "fun day of riding".
Respectfully
Appreciate the respectful response Greg.
I have organized a late season ride for several years (Die Hard and Turkey Ride.) It should be on the calendar for this year. But as Lloyd once pointed out, I'm not going to get many newbies on a ride that requires electrics. :D In the old MN-Sportbike days, I would convert the route sheets to GPS routes by the next morning. Not to mention, creating 25-30 routes and posting them to MN-Sportbike (they should still be there.) I'd like to think that is participation above most that allows some opinion on rides and routes.
Here's the rub. "Back in the day" (before the internet), we had all sorts of skill levels show up for a ride. There was no talk of ride difficulty or expectations of skill level. You simply rode with those whom you were familiar or those who didn't want to fry their tires. You worked this out in the parking lot or breakfast table. We somehow wound up showing up for lunch around the same time and often met up at gas stops. I just don't recall a huge amount of drama over speed disparity or route sheet interpretation. I dunno, maybe it was due to a wide variety of bikes that showed up. There wasn't a large number of performance machines showing up back then.
You said the basic theme, "riding your own ride". My point is Ray is sending a message that the "fun day" involves mostly fast riding only, slow riders need not bother. Just because a route is twisty doesn't mean the majority of slower riders can't navigate them at their own pace. Oh...and yes, we need to bring back that old Kite Flying Ride that Hamilton used to hold.
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I get what Ray was saying. I only have a year joining and leading on some group rides from this forum, but I fell into the first category he spoke where I have experience on twisty roads but I was newish to group riding beyond riding with a couple close friends. My first group ride was the Tri-State Boogie last year.... I followed a little too closely and I have gotten better at that. No one told me I followed too close, I just learned from observing what looked good and bad during the group, and observing those who were the leaders. Overall I had a GREAT time.
Well I'm confused what you are saying Matt. Are you saying you maybe should not have been on the ride? But you had a GREAT time!
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Respectfully Paul .....Because (from first hand experience) no matter how hard the organizer tries to cover all the bases and provide a healthy and fun riding environment, someone invariable complains that :"this or that" just wasn't to their liking.
When was the last open forum ride you organized?
*edit* and a footnote. My "fun day of riding" is quite different than yours (one is not better than the other, just different)
I like scuffing my 190's clear off the edge of the tire on roads I'm familiar with. How is a rider with different tastes going to like that? Just as I don't find it "fun" to trolly around southeastern Minnesota taking pictures. But if others do like that, great. And ONLY with route sheets and "riding your own ride" can both sets of motorcyclists have a "fun day of riding".
Respectfully
Appreciate the respectful response Greg.
I have organized a late season ride for several years (Die Hard and Turkey Ride.) It should be on the calendar for this year. But as Lloyd once pointed out, I'm not going to get many newbies on a ride that requires electrics. :D In the old MN-Sportbike days, I would convert the route sheets to GPS routes by the next morning. Not to mention, creating 25-30 routes and posting them to MN-Sportbike (they should still be there.) I'd like to think that is participation above most that allows some opinion on rides and routes.
Here's the rub. "Back in the day" (before the internet), we had all sorts of skill levels show up for a ride. There was no talk of ride difficulty or expectations of skill level. You simply rode with those whom you were familiar or those who didn't want to fry their tires. You worked this out in the parking lot or breakfast table. We somehow wound up showing up for lunch around the same time and often met up at gas stops. I just don't recall a huge amount of drama over speed disparity or route sheet interpretation. I dunno, maybe it was due to a wide variety of bikes that showed up. There wasn't a large number of performance machines showing up back then.
You said the basic theme, "riding your own ride". My point is Ray is sending a message that the "fun day" involves mostly fast riding only, slow riders need not bother. Just because a route is twisty doesn't mean the majority of slower riders can't navigate them at their own pace. Oh...and yes, we need to bring back that old Kite Flying Ride that Hamilton used to hold.
I suspect that the highlighted items above (which both are new to the scenario) are due to the fact that the internet is now in the mix and scores more people (and opinions on what a "great day of riding" is) are showing up..... *which IMO is a good thing*
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I get what Ray was saying. I only have a year joining and leading on some group rides from this forum, but I fell into the first category he spoke where I have experience on twisty roads but I was newish to group riding beyond riding with a couple close friends. My first group ride was the Tri-State Boogie last year.... I followed a little too closely and I have gotten better at that. No one told me I followed too close, I just learned from observing what looked good and bad during the group, and observing those who were the leaders. Overall I had a GREAT time.
Well I'm confused what you are saying Matt. Are you saying you maybe should not have been on the ride? But you had a GREAT time!
No, and yes I had a great time. This is what I was referencing from Ray...
If you're a noob to group riding, but are experienced at riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably not going to have any problems on a ride.
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A few thoughts, which can be discredited, due to my noob status (I probably ought to put a piece of yellow tape on the back of my helmet, not that there'll be anyone behind me to see it :)), but I'll throw them out there, as I do have some other experiences with group dynamics, and these ideas have been inspired as I have followed this thread. I'll also say up front that I don't care for "rules" or layers of admin, but without some order no organization survives. Selfishly, I want MN-MSTA to survive, without burning out its current or future leaders, as I am certain I have stumbled on the right group for me. I'd hate to see all the group knowledge that exists here decide to throw in the towel, and then have future ST riders have to re-learn lots of what already does work here. So I'll offer them up, maybe there is something useful or can lead to a better idea tucked in there somewhere:
Level 1 (Open) rides. For riders with limited previous exposure to Group Rides and/or Route navigation (like me!), or existing members who just prefer an easier pace, somewhat tighter groups. Shorter rides, couple hours maybe. Closer to town. Definite rider expectations are laid out. Introduce us noobs to route sheets, GPS and other preperation steps needed for proper touring. I can already imagine that recruiting ride leaders for this may be a challenge, as it (likely) wouldn't be as enjoyable as full touring rides, but hopefully as new riders become old riders, they are inspired to pay-it-backwards.
Next idea is to have new riders (maybe some legacy members too?) do a solo navigation route. More like a rallye, NOT a race, follow the route sheet, for a timed 60 minute (or whatever) loop par time. This could even be done in town (Tour of the Lakes?). Could do multiple riders at one time, with 2 minute staggered departures. Possibly, this could even be done on an "honor" system. I truly think I would do some in/around town route-sheet practice rides. Maybe have some not-very-direct-route sheets to Leo's South through Prior Lake or Bob's Cycle Supply via Como Park? This "check-ride" can graduate a rider to the next level...
Level 2 (Open or Closed?). Other than the ride organizer specifying the usual stuff, there is one stipulation: EVERY rider on the ride will be the leader for a minimum (20 mile?) stint. This will give everyone a taste of what that "privilege" truly feels like, and ensures that they give some thought to being prepared to be more than a "follower", which inherently better prepares everyone to truly ride-your-own-ride®.
Finally, Level 3. Organizers Call.
Maybe some/all of these have already been tried, either here, or one of the other MSTA chapters? Dunno, haven't been around long enough yet to know. But again, just throwing it out there for wiser minds to digest, all in the interest of group self-preservation. Hope it helps.
+Wade
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If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.
The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.
That's not a very inviting attitude Ray. I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA. ;) C'mon, how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding!
This is a by product of having a Minnesota rider go to STAR a week after they got their MC license. As you may or may not recollect although the rider went to the event with a half dozen 'friends" and their spouse. none of them were willing to ride with the person. This duty was left up to a volunteer (ex club president who is known for never losing anyone) at the event who somehow lost the rider. When another club member happened upon the rider on the route and volunteered to lead them to the lunch stop, but told the rider that they should just ride back to the event hotel the rider was deeply angered and offended. The rider felt the club should have taken better care of her as a member, should have been more accommodating of new riders. As an event organizer I can tell you it is pretty much impossible to convince someone who rides hundreds of miles to an event to spend their day taking care of a new rider trying to ride challenging roads in an area they have never been in. I can also tell you, I have a real problem with people bringing people they are not willing to ride with to rides, with the idea it is someone else's responsibility to take care of them.
This is a by product of having a new rider with so little skill show up at TWiSTAR with a bunch of Minnesotans. The new rider rode so poorly he almost fell over in a tight turn on the way to the event because he failed to maintain enough speed in the corner to keep himself upright. The person who invited him didn't want to ride with him and I had to use up a chit with some other members to get them to take care of him.
Then there was the open ride where I led a group of riders who thought they were fairly experienced to the lunch stop. The rider who crashed behind me on an uphill sand covered turn which I went through at about 10-15 mph wasn't hurt. At lunch he decided to ride home. His comment to me when he said he was leaving was even though he knew the roads were the equivalent of triple black diamond roads and not appropriate for new riders, he had no idea such challenging roads existed. He was leaving because he realized it was not a good idea for him to be riding on these roads with his limited amount of experience.
I'm a realist. The MN-MSTA is not prepared, nor capable of supporting riders without sufficient experience or skill on our current ride schedule. I will not mislead new riders and place them in jeopardy by suggesting we are prepared and capable of supporting inexperienced riders on our rides. Inviting a new skier fresh off the bunny slope to go down a triple back diamond run isn't nice. It is dangerous and irresponsible.
Encouraging people to come on rides where they have a significant potential to crash or dumping people you personally don't want to ride with on volunteers is neither inviting nor productive and certainly not very fun.
Of course when Howard, Dave and Dennis ran the group there were a significant number of rides run by members on much less challenging roads. The ride schedule as it sits today is not appropriate for new riders. I would think even your Black Friday ride isn't appropriate for new riders who are not likely to be properly geared or familiar with riding in the cold temps, on cold roads with a low sun on the horizon present at the end of November. If you think it is appropriate, I can change the way it is listed and promote it as suitable for new riders.
If it isn't appropriate for new riders maybe you should organize and lead a ride which can accommodate new riders. I'll also encourage you to volunteer as a MAP at TWiSTAR. I have been doing this in addition to organizing the event for the past 6 years, I do not have any other volunteers to do this at TWiSTAR this year and you have never volunteered to do this. It is disingenuous to suggest to others that they do things that you yourself are unwilling to do, right?
I think I will show up for a ride and have fun, when all the people who show up for the ride do not have any expectation that I will do something for them or have any ideas of about what else I can do for them.
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You said the basic theme, "riding your own ride". My point is Ray is sending a message that the "fun day" involves mostly fast riding only, slow riders need not bother. Just because a route is twisty doesn't mean the majority of slower riders can't navigate them at their own pace. Oh...and yes, we need to bring back that old Kite Flying Ride that Hamilton used to hold.
Actually you'll notice there is no reference to speed anywhere, except where triple digit speeds are discouraged. The issue is not speed. It is riding triple black diamond roads and inexperience.
Slow or fast isn't the issue. Experience and skill is the issue. That's why the disclaimer is not appropriate for inexperienced riders as opposed to not appropriate for slow riders.
If you queried the folks about their comments about no one crashing on the ride two Sundays ago, I'll bet you'll find out that high speeds was not the reason for their comments about no one crashing, it was the tight downhill off camber switchback turns which were completely covered with sand which caused the comments. These types of roads under these conditions are challenging even for experienced riders and certainly are not suitable for new riders.
Blank Hill road, a frequently routed road is typically not appropriate for inexperienced riders. We have had riders turn around on dirt roads that have been occasionally routed on rides because they were not comfortable enough to handle riding on these roads.
You seem to be making the assumption that slow and inexperienced are synonymous. They are not.
Show me where I characterized an MN-MSTA ride as not appropriate for slow riders and I'll pay you $100.
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If it isn't appropriate for new riders maybe you should organize and lead a ride which can accommodate new riders. I'll also encourage you to volunteer as a MAP at TWiSTAR. I have been doing this in addition to organizing the event for the past 6 years, I do not have any other volunteers to do this at TWiSTAR this year and you have never volunteered to do this. It is disingenuous to suggest to others that they do things that you yourself are unwilling to do, right?
I had a bunch of stuff to say but decided it's just not worth the back and forth. I've volunteered to lead the slow group on our local rides plenty of times. I figure that gives me some license to voice an opinion about our group rides. Note that I did not argue or disagree for the majority of the thread until you made the statement about slow riders and twisties being screwed. I can understand how you got to this point with your experiences of brand new riders. I just want to caution you about making a tone that sounds like this organization is strictly for a certain style of rider on a certain style of bike. Lest I sound like I am bagging strictly on you, I also caution Lloyd about fostering an environment of a military Drill Sargent who makes people feel bad when they wanted to simply enjoy a fun day of riding. But overall, I want to make the point that this is really getting all too complicated compared to...uh oh....here it comes....BACK IN THE DAY. :)
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Paul---I by no means am suggesting some military drill and punsishment system (although I hear Hope is good with a paddle)............but stupidity (and we all know what that is, and the people I give two shits about, including you Paul agree on what it is) People should enjoy a day of riding---but riding smart and safely. triple digits is never smart nor is it ever safe (for those---take it to the track) * and yes I have ridden triple digits, duh.....But I chose not to for 99.9% of my riding
I love, absolutely love that you set a ride pace a little different that Ray,greg, Vince, or myself....Chris Wiswell does this too (although he has and can join the other groups.)
I love that your rides are a bit different--I absolutely am in support of that...regardless if you want to call them "slow" or not.....
I am starting a new thread...............True and accurate leaders paces, as seen by me...
go find it, in the rides section-so not every Tom Dick and Harry is viewing it !
It surely will give many a much better and more accurate representation of what I have experienced with each of the ride leaders.....even though my 20 sub category spoof was pretty damn accurate--this will have more details.
We need a variety of paces and a variety of rides.........but I do also think we need a cap on idiotic riding behavior....And IMO if anyone is ridng faster than Rays typical pace....You are riding far too fast for the roads we travel and that my friend is far too wreckless and dangerous. For those people---go ride with TA/ZG where that is the common practice.....We are better-we should stand up and show we are
I have not seen a single person on any ride who has the skills to be running a consistent 90+ on the typical ride routes Ray or myself put on.(especially mid march)
A certain guy featured on the cover page may well be the best street rider on this forum and I highly doubt he is out running around at 90+ on his way down to Mindoro. I have riiden with him on many occassions and I do not see him crossing the centerline, slamming on the brakes or running trips. While I do not know of any hosted rides by him...I do believe he would put on an awesome ride (nudge, nudge)
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I am informed and mostly agree;
This forum is for MSTA members, it is a Minnesota sub chapter of an AMA sanctioned MSTA.
As such, pretty much all MSTA members have the right and obligation to stand up and speak freely on anything they like, don't like or want/need changed.
Everyone else has no rights !
You are simply here at the will of the real members. So if the real 50ish members decide on change and you "others" don't like it, well too bad.
Now I am not saying that I personally don't care about your opinion or thoughts (okay a few of you I don't) or that I want all (some definitely) the "non members" to leave. But I am saying if you are not willing to step up and actually take some fricking responsibilty and do a more active part in running the rides....well then you have little to have a say so in.
1) create your own group within the group on rides
2) organize a ride
3) offer help or whatever for rides and other events
Do more you'll get more.
I am told I am doing so much for the forum that I am blocking out the sun....So much so that many simply sit back and ride my coat tails on issues.....Well here you guys go--
And for the 18 people that have been pming and emailing me on this one issue........Show your real support by--calling Ray, email Ray, send Roger (stinger), Ray (Ray916Mn)or Tony(tk) - you know, the forum leaders your complaints and suggestions via PM.....Or simply post them up,,,,,,,,Stand up and take a stand, offer a solution or something ---Do something that actually benefits the club or truly shows your support for an idea.
( ps.. I love you all---but I have work to do that does not revolve around making the forum better 24/7....I fight on my own behalf, thank you for your behind the scenes support. Now show more in front of the action.)
*I see a few of you have stood up and been accounted for---I appreciate it.*
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"Show me where I characterized an MN-MSTA ride as not appropriate for slow riders and I'll pay you $100."
Everyone on the forum is searching your every post, reliving your every commnet on a ride.....lol
Truth be told though.............The way the rides are run now---they are not appropriate for "slow" riders...regardless of their experience.
UNtil and unless many take up self responsibility and actually split groups further into more sub groups on rides and more diversity of rides ( easier routes, shorter routes, slower paces etc...)......"SLOW" ( by choice or by experience level)riders will never fit in..
Just my observation
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There goes 2 1/2 more hours of my life I should have spent being productive for myself instead of for the forum.....
I hate that when days later I find mistakes....lol "spent"
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There goes 2 1/2 more hours of my life I should have being productive for myself instead of for the forum.....
That will teach you to procrastinate! ::)
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(I think this post might have fit into that locked (deleted?) thread about "forcing" others to ride a certain way.)
I was thinking on my ride into work today about the "Ride Your Own Ride" mantra and the recent discussion about organizers and/or fellow group members being too outspoken or judgemental about others in the group, people being scared to make a honest mistake or two in a full day of riding, etc... It seems to me that the forum's current "understanding" of "Ride Your Own Ride" is very "me"-centric (duh). Let's say "follower-centric", since that's the spirit of what has been stated by Ray and others (http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1038.0.html) who have the most support. It's subtle (which means you should read that paragraph again and make sure you get it before getting bent out of shape below), but I think this highlights a very important gap that I think Lloyd is working to close.
How does this follower-centric attitude work for the organizer? Can followers judge people who organize rides and in effect (via public complaints) force their version of Ride Your Own Ride onto group events? Too long, too short, too fast, too slow, too many stops, not enough stops, not enough socializing, too easy, too hard, etc. etc. etc. If so, essentially, I think we're putting the burden and "control" on the wrong parties. People that join an organizer's ride should be prepared to ride that organizer's ride, or something very close to it, or be willing and able to leave the ride clearly understanding that it was not the organizer's "fault" that they couldn't complete it. Some rides are going to be not well-suited for certain riders, and that is really nobody's fault and actually not even a problem; until people complain that some organizer wouldn't let them "ride my own ride". Ray made this point clearly in the opening post of this thread before it wandered off the rails into a game of "what if" and being surprised that Lloyd speaks his mind.
One other point that some people may miss is that "you" riding your own ride never automatically means that an organizer want you to do that on their ride. If "your ride" sucks, or differs from the stated goals in the organizer's or really anyone else's estimation and you therefore are affecting anyone else's ride, of course there will be tension. People judge, that's how we survive, and that's not the problem. Join rides you fit in with, figure out what to change to fit in and make it happen if you don't, organize your own rides, or ride solo -- it's not rocket science.
So, I really want to know what recourse does the forum grant the organizer and/or concerned followers when a person riding their own ride doesn't fit with the assembled group? We know Lloyd will throw you out, others might leave you at a turn you missed or broke down/in a ditch if you're not hurt and most of us will suck it up and live with you to the end of the ride. What about when people don't get the message and keep joining groups they don't fit into?
This might be a bit "deep" (or more likely poorly communicated), take some time to think about it... then try a few groups out while keeping most (all?) of your ideas to yourself and see if you can find a group you like. If you hit a ride that REALLY doesn't suit you (or an organizer that REALLY doesn't like your riding), act like an adult, inform the group that you are leaving and take off. If you find a group that's a near-fit and enjoy their company, spend some time getting to know the people in real life and maybe there will be a chance for you to suggest a tweak or two to the way the rides are run, or even better, invite them on a ride you run.
a.s.
p.s. that Tension could be avoided by exactly what many people have been talking about recently; accurate ride postings by leaders, accurate self-assesment by potential followers, new leaders stepping up with new types of rides/routes, extending and accepting constructive criticism as needed, etc., things I hope the forum as a whole is moving forward on. Also of note, in spite of what we say online, it appears that we basically all agree on all of these points that everyone has been trying to make in various posts / threads, etc.
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Last time I checked, this is an open forum and always has been - no exclusivity to MNSTA members beyond closed MNSTA only rides. You think your opinion counts more because you are a paying member? Get a grip, this is not what this forum is all about.
I am informed and mostly agree;
This forum is for MSTA members, it is a Minnesota sub chapter of an AMA sanctioned MSTA.
As such, pretty much all MSTA members have the right and obligation to stand up and speak freely on anything they like, don't like or want/need changed.
Everyone else has no rights !
You are simply here at the will of the real members. So if the real 50ish members decide on change and you "others" don't like it, well too bad.
Now I am not saying that I personally don't care about your opinion or thoughts (okay a few of you I don't) or that I want all (some definitely) the "non members" to leave. But I am saying if you are not willing to step up and actually take some fricking responsibilty and do a more active part in running the rides....well then you have little to have a say so in.
1) create your own group within the group on rides
2) organize a ride
3) offer help or whatever for rides and other events
Do more you'll get more.
I am told I am doing so much for the forum that I am blocking out the sun....So much so that many simply sit back and ride my coat tails on issues.....Well here you guys go--
And for the 18 people that have been pming and emailing me on this one issue........Show your real support by--calling Ray, email Ray, send Roger (stinger), Ray (Ray916Mn)or Tony(tk) - you know, the forum leaders your complaints and suggestions via PM.....Or simply post them up,,,,,,,,Stand up and take a stand, offer a solution or something ---Do something that actually benefits the club or truly shows your support for an idea.
( ps.. I love you all---but I have work to do that does not revolve around making the forum better 24/7....I fight on my own behalf, thank you for your behind the scenes support. Now show more in front of the action.)
*I see a few of you have stood up and been accounted for---I appreciate it.*
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"A certain guy featured on the cover page may well be the best street rider on this forum and I highly doubt he is out running around at 90+ on his way down to Mindoro. I have riiden with him on many occassions and I do not see him crossing the centerline, slamming on the brakes or running trips. While I do not know of any hosted rides by him...I do believe he would put on an awesome ride (nudge, nudge)"
Just to set the record straight, this guy did organize an MSTA ride. It was awesome.
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(I think this post might have fit into that locked (deleted?) thread about "forcing" others to ride a certain way.)
I was thinking on my ride into work today about the "Ride Your Own Ride" mantra and the recent discussion about organizers and/or fellow group members being too outspoken or judgemental about others in the group, people being scared to make a honest mistake or two in a full day of riding, etc... It seems to me that the forum's current "understanding" of "Ride Your Own Ride" is very "me"-centric (duh). Let's say "follower-centric", since that's the spirit of what has been stated by Ray and others ([url]http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1038.0.html[/url]) who have the most support. It's subtle (which means you should read that paragraph again and make sure you get it before getting bent out of shape below), but I think this highlights a very important gap that I think Lloyd is working to close.
How does this follower-centric attitude work for the organizer? Can followers judge people who organize rides and in effect (via public complaints) force their version of Ride Your Own Ride onto group events? Too long, too short, too fast, too slow, too many stops, not enough stops, not enough socializing, too easy, too hard, etc. etc. etc. If so, essentially, I think we're putting the burden and "control" on the wrong parties. People that join an organizer's ride should be prepared to ride that organizer's ride, or something very close to it, or be willing and able to leave the ride clearly understanding that it was not the organizer's "fault" that they couldn't complete it. Some rides are going to be not well-suited for certain riders, and that is really nobody's fault and actually not even a problem; until people complain that some organizer wouldn't let them "ride my own ride". Ray made this point clearly in the opening post of this thread before it wandered off the rails into a game of "what if" and being surprised that Lloyd speaks his mind.
One other point that some people may miss is that "you" riding your own ride never automatically means that an organizer want you to do that on their ride. If "your ride" sucks, or differs from the stated goals in the organizer's or really anyone else's estimation and you therefore are affecting anyone else's ride, of course there will be tension. People judge, that's how we survive, and that's not the problem. Join rides you fit in with, figure out what to change to fit in and make it happen if you don't, organize your own rides, or ride solo -- it's not rocket science.
So, I really want to know what recourse does the forum grant the organizer and/or concerned followers when a person riding their own ride doesn't fit with the assembled group? We know Lloyd will throw you out, others might leave you at a turn you missed or broke down/in a ditch if you're not hurt and most of us will suck it up and live with you to the end of the ride. What about when people don't get the message and keep joining groups they don't fit into?
This might be a bit "deep" (or more likely poorly communicated), take some time to think about it... then try a few groups out while keeping most (all?) of your ideas to yourself and see if you can find a group you like. If you hit a ride that REALLY doesn't suit you (or an organizer that REALLY doesn't like your riding), act like an adult, inform the group that you are leaving and take off. If you find a group that's a near-fit and enjoy their company, spend some time getting to know the people in real life and maybe there will be a chance for you to suggest a tweak or two to the way the rides are run, or even better, invite them on a ride you run.
a.s.
p.s. that Tension could be avoided by exactly what many people have been talking about recently; accurate ride postings by leaders, accurate self-assesment by potential followers, new leaders stepping up with new types of rides/routes, extending and accepting constructive criticism as needed, etc., things I hope the forum as a whole is moving forward on. Also of note, in spite of what we say online, it appears that we basically all agree on all of these points that everyone has been trying to make in various posts / threads, etc.
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(I think this post might have fit into that locked (deleted?) thread about "forcing" others to ride a certain way.)
I was thinking on my ride into work today about the "Ride Your Own Ride" mantra and the recent discussion about organizers and/or fellow group members being too outspoken or judgemental about others in the group, people being scared to make a honest mistake or two in a full day of riding, etc... It seems to me that the forum's current "understanding" of "Ride Your Own Ride" is very "me"-centric (duh). Let's say "follower-centric", since that's the spirit of what has been stated by Ray and others ([url]http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1038.0.html[/url]) who have the most support. It's subtle (which means you should read that paragraph again and make sure you get it before getting bent out of shape below), but I think this highlights a very important gap that I think Lloyd is working to close.
How does this follower-centric attitude work for the organizer? Can followers judge people who organize rides and in effect (via public complaints) force their version of Ride Your Own Ride onto group events? Too long, too short, too fast, too slow, too many stops, not enough stops, not enough socializing, too easy, too hard, etc. etc. etc. If so, essentially, I think we're putting the burden and "control" on the wrong parties. People that join an organizer's ride should be prepared to ride that organizer's ride, or something very close to it, or be willing and able to leave the ride clearly understanding that it was not the organizer's "fault" that they couldn't complete it. Some rides are going to be not well-suited for certain riders, and that is really nobody's fault and actually not even a problem; until people complain that some organizer wouldn't let them "ride my own ride". Ray made this point clearly in the opening post of this thread before it wandered off the rails into a game of "what if" and being surprised that Lloyd speaks his mind.
One other point that some people may miss is that "you" riding your own ride never automatically means that an organizer want you to do that on their ride. If "your ride" sucks, or differs from the stated goals in the organizer's or really anyone else's estimation and you therefore are affecting anyone else's ride, of course there will be tension. People judge, that's how we survive, and that's not the problem. Join rides you fit in with, figure out what to change to fit in and make it happen if you don't, organize your own rides, or ride solo -- it's not rocket science.
So, I really want to know what recourse does the forum grant the organizer and/or concerned followers when a person riding their own ride doesn't fit with the assembled group? We know Lloyd will throw you out, others might leave you at a turn you missed or broke down/in a ditch if you're not hurt and most of us will suck it up and live with you to the end of the ride. What about when people don't get the message and keep joining groups they don't fit into?
This might be a bit "deep" (or more likely poorly communicated), take some time to think about it... then try a few groups out while keeping most (all?) of your ideas to yourself and see if you can find a group you like. If you hit a ride that REALLY doesn't suit you (or an organizer that REALLY doesn't like your riding), act like an adult, inform the group that you are leaving and take off. If you find a group that's a near-fit and enjoy their company, spend some time getting to know the people in real life and maybe there will be a chance for you to suggest a tweak or two to the way the rides are run, or even better, invite them on a ride you run.
a.s.
p.s. that Tension could be avoided by exactly what many people have been talking about recently; accurate ride postings by leaders, accurate self-assesment by potential followers, new leaders stepping up with new types of rides/routes, extending and accepting constructive criticism as needed, etc., things I hope the forum as a whole is moving forward on. Also of note, in spite of what we say online, it appears that we basically all agree on all of these points that everyone has been trying to make in various posts / threads, etc.
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^ is there a point you are trying to make beyond quoting the same reply twice?
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Larry organizes a ride, I will be there (but do not expect me to lead)
"A certain guy featured on the cover page may well be the best street rider on this forum and I highly doubt he is out running around at 90+ on his way down to Mindoro. I have riiden with him on many occassions and I do not see him crossing the centerline, slamming on the brakes or running trips. While I do not know of any hosted rides by him...I do believe he would put on an awesome ride (nudge, nudge)"
Just to set the record straight, this guy did organize an MSTA ride. It was awesome.
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"SEND ME YOUR POOR,UNWASHED,SLOW RIDERS" Over the years I've enjoyed introducing many riders to the fun and beauty of the "Hill Country". If you come upon such wretches send them on a Monday ride w me!GJ :o
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Am curious as to what you mean by "POOR,UNWASHED,SLOW RIDERS"?
"SEND ME YOUR POOR,UNWASHED,SLOW RIDERS" Over the years I've enjoyed introducing many riders to the fun and beauty of the "Hill Country". If you come upon such wretches send them on a Monday ride w me!GJ :o
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Just cause I am feeling charitable for those reading challenged.....or for Tim who clearly is 6 days late and $8000 short.
"Ray (from his other thread)---"Finally, unlike other forums without the history and establishment of the MSTA, this forum is not about creating or establishing a new club or being a part of a forum run for private profit. It is the MN-MSTA's hope that participating in this forum and on MN-MSTA rides will cause people to become dues paying MSTA members. "
(I think this post might have fit into that locked (deleted?) thread about "forcing" others to ride a certain way.)
I was thinking on my ride into work today about the "Ride Your Own Ride" mantra and the recent discussion about organizers and/or fellow group members being too outspoken or judgemental about others in the group, people being scared to make a honest mistake or two in a full day of riding, etc... It seems to me that the forum's current "understanding" of "Ride Your Own Ride" is very "me"-centric (duh). Let's say "follower-centric", since that's the spirit of what has been stated by Ray and others ([url]http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1038.0.html[/url]) who have the most support. It's subtle (which means you should read that paragraph again and make sure you get it before getting bent out of shape below), but I think this highlights a very important gap that I think Lloyd is working to close.
How does this follower-centric attitude work for the organizer? Can followers judge people who organize rides and in effect (via public complaints) force their version of Ride Your Own Ride onto group events? Too long, too short, too fast, too slow, too many stops, not enough stops, not enough socializing, too easy, too hard, etc. etc. etc. If so, essentially, I think we're putting the burden and "control" on the wrong parties. People that join an organizer's ride should be prepared to ride that organizer's ride, or something very close to it, or be willing and able to leave the ride clearly understanding that it was not the organizer's "fault" that they couldn't complete it. Some rides are going to be not well-suited for certain riders, and that is really nobody's fault and actually not even a problem; until people complain that some organizer wouldn't let them "ride my own ride". Ray made this point clearly in the opening post of this thread before it wandered off the rails into a game of "what if" and being surprised that Lloyd speaks his mind.
One other point that some people may miss is that "you" riding your own ride never automatically means that an organizer want you to do that on their ride. If "your ride" sucks, or differs from the stated goals in the organizer's or really anyone else's estimation and you therefore are affecting anyone else's ride, of course there will be tension. People judge, that's how we survive, and that's not the problem. Join rides you fit in with, figure out what to change to fit in and make it happen if you don't, organize your own rides, or ride solo -- it's not rocket science.
So, I really want to know what recourse does the forum grant the organizer and/or concerned followers when a person riding their own ride doesn't fit with the assembled group? We know Lloyd will throw you out, others might leave you at a turn you missed or broke down/in a ditch if you're not hurt and most of us will suck it up and live with you to the end of the ride. What about when people don't get the message and keep joining groups they don't fit into?
This might be a bit "deep" (or more likely poorly communicated), take some time to think about it... then try a few groups out while keeping most (all?) of your ideas to yourself and see if you can find a group you like. If you hit a ride that REALLY doesn't suit you (or an organizer that REALLY doesn't like your riding), act like an adult, inform the group that you are leaving and take off. If you find a group that's a near-fit and enjoy their company, spend some time getting to know the people in real life and maybe there will be a chance for you to suggest a tweak or two to the way the rides are run, or even better, invite them on a ride you run.
a.s.
p.s. that Tension could be avoided by exactly what many people have been talking about recently; accurate ride postings by leaders, accurate self-assesment by potential followers, new leaders stepping up with new types of rides/routes, extending and accepting constructive criticism as needed, etc., things I hope the forum as a whole is moving forward on. Also of note, in spite of what we say online, it appears that we basically all agree on all of these points that everyone has been trying to make in various posts / threads, etc.
"
I don't know if the conversation will get much traction, as it's a little politically incorrect, but I think it's an important discussion to have and now's a great time to have it. From my reading of this and other attempted discussions about the tone or personality of this site, I feel that the "safe and proficient" riding / rides, "good riders on good roads" sorta personality of MN-MSTA is deteriorating. Lloyd's sub-forum idea seems like one possible / logical approach to kind of masking the uglier side of what we have become -- a launching place for average riders on great routes riding like morons, out of sight of the general public at first. I think the basic concept is along the lines of putting your best foot forward or you only have one chance to make a first impression. The trick of course is how to judge things effectively, and while I don't have any good insight into how to do that, there are several well-respected riders here that would be more than capable of witnessing and then judging as needed. I think if we're honest, there are rides we'd rather not have everyone know we run (perhaps most easily determined after the fact) or mistakenly think that that is how all of our rides are run -- the sub-forum idea was one way to contain that risk / exposure and highlight some of the more polished / by-the-book rides. Maybe the MN-MSTA rides vs. Ad Hoc rides labelling is all that we need, but I think that's a pretty important distinction that some people, especially guests, won't recognize.
While the sub-forum might not end up being the answer, I think having very real discussions about "how rides are run" and how riders ride on them is the only thing that's going to keep "us" "better" than TA or MNSBR or whatever. Sure our routes will probably always be unique and likely better, if we don't use up all of the leadership / ride creators and if the great routes aren't eventually over-used and abused, but if we refuse to talk about the core beliefs and how they / we are changing, our routes might end up being the only thing that sets us apart.
I've said it before and I'll say it forever, I'm a better and more "aware" rider than ever before, thanks to people being willing to judge me and others in the group.
a.s.
p.s. just for the record, I join group rides for the group aspect, it irks me when my "riding buddies" are either way ahead or way behind (like more than a few seconds). I like being part of a group, a formation, I like the way kids stare and dogs bark and dads in mini-vans wish they were out there with us; I like watching people ride challenging roads well and the idea / hope that people are watching me ride (hopefully) well. I like the sight of a train of bikes streaming like ants around a bend climbing a hill, I like the sound of a wide range of bikes pulling away from stops. I like the security it brings and put up with the risk it brings. I don't like spending energy "wondering" anything -- like am I riding too fast for those dropping behind, or will those in front come back for me if I have a flat or something or am I too slow for the guy on my *.*. I don't like getting passed by anything with 4 wheels and love being passed by a friend that wants to run a little faster or lead an upcoming section. I don't like being the only one to see things, I want to talk about that eagle, fox, deer, crazy driver, perfect corner or hopefully rare but beautiful great save, and I want to hear what other's thought of those same experiences... experiences, stories and tales that can't be shared when running solo or when the group is "too spread out".
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 01:49:19 AM by aschendel » "
^^^The most read worthy posts in the entire thread.^^^
and finally the one that brings a little humor amongst all the CRAP...
"Being in a total good mood and a smart ass today;
Multiple "private" sub forums...members can belong to one or all-- (The "owner" of that section moderates it themself)
lets see we have the;
1) I am underskilled and don't know it therefore I can ride as good as anyone,section
2) I am super fast. Trust me I am,section...
3) I have no idea where I am going, so you lead,section
4) I am slow and know it and am totally okay with that,section
5) I am slow and embarrassed about it, so I will push as hard as I dare to ride with you guys,section
6) I do trackdays, and the streets are paved just like the track, so lets use it all,section
7) "It is what it is", "I don't need to think about riding, I just ride",section
Rays section....80-85 for 90% of the ride, start and end in Nelson (oh wait my speedo is what?,,,15 mph off, no way)...oh and if I don't show up--I took the duc and ran out of gas---I'll catch up
9) Vince's section....I will go as fast as everybody else wants to but I will do it following 3 bike lengths back. 70 no problem, 170 no problem, lets go....
10) Paul's section....I do destination rides because I enjoy them...I have no interest in riding "fast" even though my pace often is as brisk as some of the "fast" guys. Plus you better be able to go further than 150 miles on a tank of fuel (unless you are riding a dualsport, that falls under the dual sport exception rule)
11) Rogers section...I like to wick it up especially on the tupperware bike. Come ride with me and we will have plenty of yuks and a great time at all the stops..
12) Denyse's section...Guys, you need to pose for this picture, then we can ride some more.
13) Chris' section...okay we were supposed to leave at 9 it is now 10, lets go already
14) Johns section.....is it Monday yet?
15) Greg's section...Tri- State boogie time. Devoted subscriber to #7 though. Now who has a truck to get me to Arkansas?
16) Lloyd's section... 68-74 mph 90% of the ride and I do not want to wait for anyone, nor do I want to put my feet down at stop signs. I will see you guys for ice cream in 500 miles and it won't be via MN sweeper roads, it'll be some loopdeloop round and round hitting every road imagineable and no I do not care that those 46 miles were sand covered...NO you cannot share my route sheet..
17) Tony's section...I'm with you guys, wherever you want to go. I just want to ride. What? I need a new chain and sprockets, how did that happen...
18) Joel's section....what? me lead....ummm ok
19) Marks section....***the section you are entering has no rides***....
Now I hope everyone enjoys a little humor and little fun being poked at some of the people I like .... I have no doubt they will get a good laugh out of it."
Because they are worth reading more than once, thats why.
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Forget it, i give you Lyold
Am curious as to what you mean by "POOR,UNWASHED,SLOW RIDERS"?
"SEND ME YOUR POOR,UNWASHED,SLOW RIDERS" Over the years I've enjoyed introducing many riders to the fun and beauty of the "Hill Country". If you come upon such wretches send them on a Monday ride w me!GJ :o