mn-msta.com
General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: flyinlow on October 23, 2010, 07:32:39 PM
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My apologies to anyone where I posted a route they posted on MN-MSTA in my google docs links. I have a had a couple members ask me to remove routes and any public links to the maps in google maps and I think I have them all removed now.
I did not understand what the policy was for sharing these routes and apologize for my ignorance. My intention is not to upset anyone on the forum. Please let me know if there are any routes out there that some of you may have created. I have over 100 routes in google maps, so it may be difficult for me to remember where I got them all.
https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1MJvsV7i0AbcQ3cin7Pbuewf12FflTQqGqIwNnBxpyz8&hl=en
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Here is a rebutal statement, just so your comments are put in context in regards to my routes. Others may have there own issues.
There was no misunderstanding when I told you, in direct and certain terms to not post up my routes!
There was no misunderstanding when I wrote you and you argued with me about removing my routes once you had already posted my routes!
There was no misunderstanding when you took my route and changed the name of it, then I posted up about it, only then did you tell me you removed it, for me to only see it back up on the page under yet a different name a week later!
I hope you are sincere and I appreciate that it finally appears to be down.
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Hmm, some of those routes look familiar. But that's OK, I posted them on MN-Sportbike for others to enjoy. Feel free to use the 25-30 of them under my name. :)
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Here is a rebutal statement, just so your comments are put in context in regards to my routes. Others may have there own issues.
There was no misunderstanding when I told you, in direct and certain terms to not post up my routes!
There was no misunderstanding when I wrote you and you argued with me about removing my routes once you had already posted my routes!
There was no misunderstanding when you took my route and changed the name of it, then I posted up about it, only then did you tell me you removed it, for me to only see it back up on the page under yet a different name a week later!
I hope you are sincere and I appreciate that it finally appears to be down.
Lloyd, relax :) . He admitted he did something some wished he hadn't, now let it go.
ugh :(
Although I agree with the sentiment in keeping written routes a little closer to the vest, this seams to be becoming a bigger issue than it needs to be.
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I had removed Lloyds routes yesterday, yes, I made some mistakes. With this post I was attempting to make sure that if I had posted anyone else's routes that I wanted to make sure they knew about it and let me know which ones to take down. I don't want to keep getting PM's from other people as I already have about this. I think I have removed the ones that were unique to MN-msta. I did get some routes from other forums that were posted by members on this forum. If people want those removed as well, I can remove them.
As I said, I have over 100 routes in google maps, and I don't remember where they all came from.
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Flyinlow, i thank you for your efforts to create a location for newer members with less road knowledge can go and find a nice route to follow. I don't know the roads well, and i put the routes into my gps and its a great asset to help me get around.
I do understand that someone with lots of road knowledge, time, and effort spent on their routes would like to keep them close to their chest. Makes sense to me. If credit was given in the title or they were all titled start to end, i would enjoy them the same and be appreciative they were available.
So thanks for the effort,
Joel
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For those of you that have no clue of the entire back story or situation - you probably should find out before making your posts!
I wont relax-my routes are my routes .................fucking stupid ass bullshit
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I'd love to share all my routes openly, but unfortunately don't think it is wise to do so.
Virtually every route I create, I create with the objective of making the route, a route that will be used for MN-MSTA group rides year after year, for rides like our ride to Slimey Crud, or Rockton BBQ for example. To be able to have a say on how people ride on these rides, I need to make sure that it is clear to anyone who shows up for the ride that it is my ride and route. If the routes we use for these rides, become available to riders through other sources without attribution, any rider can show up for these rides, and when told they need to wear a helmet, not pass on the right, or not stuff pass other riders in corners, they can rightfully tell us "f*** off, it is not your route, the ride is on public roads, I can do what I please".
Unfortunately I have had first hand experience with wild riders showing up for an MSTA ride, trying to use this logic to ride wildly on the route. Fortunately, we did have control over the route and were ultimately able to convince the riders, that what they were doing was wrong, because it was our route and ride. Initially the wild riders got so pissed off that we would try to tell them how to ride on public roads, they vowed to come back and ruin the ride. Had we not been able to point out that the route was clearly ours, a ride which the club had been doing for over a decade would have ended.
Lastly, whenever content is reproduced or redistributed, it is important to do so with the authorization of the author/creator or at the very least with clear attribution to the author/creator. The MSTA shares Nick Ienatsch's "The Pace" article with his permission and routes should be handled the same way in my opinion.
Thanks to Mike for his proactive work to square things up on his page.
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The way I see it, these routes are kinda like a hunters, or fisherman's favorite spot. Its nice to share with a friend once in a while, but you certainly don't want the whole world to know. There are already plenty of roads that are known for sportbike action. And quite frankly I'm surprised that cops don't set up shop in these stretches and start handing out more tickets. So its kinda nice to keep some of the less common "fun" roads, only known to a smaller group of riders.
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I guess I'm in the minority here. I think of a routesheet as public info. We hand them out free to complete strangers. They can do with them
as they choose. There is no copyright . I'm not posesive about routes I develop. Any of you are free to post them on any forum, website,
facebook- twitter-bulletin board (electronic or otherwise) or photocopy them and hand out to people.
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Topics like this make me chuckle, thanks guys ;D
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The way I see it, these routes are kinda like a hunters, or fisherman's favorite spot. Its nice to share with a friend once in a while, but you certainly don't want the whole world to know. There are already plenty of roads that are known for sportbike action. And quite frankly I'm surprised that cops don't set up shop in these stretches and start handing out more tickets. So its kinda nice to keep some of the less common "fun" roads, only known to a smaller group of riders.
Unfortunately, that horse has long left the barn. Go over to MN-Sportbike and start comparing the routes and you'll find many of them overlap the same roads. Do you think Highway 60, Wildcat 33 or Arcadia 95 are big secrets to Joe Law? Do you think they will waste their time sitting on Cty PI waiting for one small group of bikes go come through? The best roads are already known to a number of sportbike groups and all my routes are simply variations of these roads.
I can understand not posting a route for public consumption for an upcoming scheduled ride. But I want to share my routes as others have shared them with me over the years.
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I think both sides have good arguements. I'm not stating which side is good or bad, correct or not. It is cool that effort was made to correct a mistake.
I'm going to point out something about the tone that we display here Unfortunately discussions like this is why the forum does not grow as fast as other forums. (not that member count is anything, but a welcoming environment promotes more membership)
Members want to be included. Members want to have access. Members want to enjoy the weekend with riding. Members don't want to be given the tax code of what are and are not the rules. Peeps want to just enjoy the weekend.
Elitist BS is what tells people they are not welcome unless they are in the "in" group. So let's just keep it up and wonder why people don't knock down the door to join?
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Okay, I have refrained from saying anything other than smart-assed remarks so far. Here's what I really think.
You make up a route, big fucking deal. Sorry about the swearing.
People have been riding these roads, and leading groups for years. You link together some roads and all of a sudden you are a hero. That's bs. You probably gleaned all your info from other rides anyway. I live in these parts, ride these roads on my motorcycle and bicycle all the time. I never claim a route to be mine. I share my rides so others can enjoy the area, and want to come back. To even claim a route as privileged information is simply sophomoric. I probably rode your route first anyway, as did many others. The only boggle I can see is if you don't want a route posted right before a ride, in case some narc is watching the forum, and wants to know a rides route to set up a traffic stop.
Please stop this bullshit, or I will stop leading any group rides and won't attend yours. We are not 16 years old here.
In before the lock...
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I see both/all sides, and I think every perspective has merit, even Lloyd clearing up the backstory re: flyinglow. So now we all know, eh?
Confessional time: I pretty much run a route I picked up from a passatworld drive way back when it was clubb5. I've done variants, and personalized it somewhat, but just to be forthright, I learned it from one of the great local planners on their forum (Matt); that dude just loved to drive and had a real knack for laying down sweet routes.
Thanks,
Andy
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Okay, I have refrained from saying anything other than smart-assed remarks so far. Here's what I really think.
You make up a route, big fucking deal. Sorry about the swearing.
People have been riding these roads, and leading groups for years. You link together some roads and all of a sudden you are a hero. That's bs. You probably gleaned all your info from other rides anyway. I live in these parts, ride these roads on my motorcycle and bicycle all the time. I never claim a route to be mine. I share my rides so others can enjoy the area, and want to come back. To even claim a route as privileged information is simply sophomoric. I probably rode your route first anyway, as did many others. The only boggle I can see is if you don't want a route posted right before a ride, in case some narc is watching the forum, and wants to know a rides route to set up a traffic stop.
Please stop this bullshit, or I will stop leading any group rides and won't attend yours. We are not 16 years old here.
In before the lock...
Well said sir!!
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Classic intellectual property rights discussions... I bet we'll be the first to figure it all out - don't forget to write down our conclusion and send it off to RIAA.
The fact that we can't agree to disagree indicates that we are in fact 16 years old and/or sophomoric. There isn't any way to bring everyone together, but there certainly are all sorts of ways to drive everyone apart. Everybody has their own quirks and instead of jumping on one side or the other, how about we all try to act out the golden rule and show each other a little respect?
Andy
p.s. It's obvious that both sides have a pretty solid argument, but I side with respecting the source of the "work". It is not "work" to follow someone else's route a time or two, decide it's awesome and then post it. It is work to go out and figure out how roads flow together, how to line up appropriate breaks, type it up and bring a group on it.
p.p.s. At this point, I'd like to thanks Matt, from clubb5 / passatworld, for showing me the basic route I've been using for all my group rides; your work has made me look good on more than one occasion and I appreciate that you were willing to do this for me and share it with me.
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christ, what a lame fucking topic. if you create a route and want it kept a secret, dont share it then. dont do a group ride with other people. i mean really its pretty pathetic to whine about someone sharing a route. i have tons of routes from rides ive been on. none are named, and i have no clue who made em. i've in the past asked people such as Ray for a copy of a route that i know hes done in the past. i print it off and throw it in my stack of shit, then when i want to go out and ride i grab a route and go. its not like any of these roads are a big secret. anyone that can read a map or navigate google maps can find these roads. hell ive even grabbed routes from posted rides, even though i had no intentions of going on them at the time. mainly because i dont care for the group that happens to be going that day. yet another day i may grab a few people and decide to do it. does this mean someone should be praised because others have traveled the same route?
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The solution is very simple and all the whiners on here saying it has to be their way are idiots. YOU should take YOUR ball and go home- delete YOUR account and leave-please !! Do yourself and us all a favor
Respect the route creators wishes-and stop stealing their routes and stop attending any of their rides, then stop whining like little babies about the fact some people don't want YOU to have it!
If they are so damn easy to create and execute-get off your lazy ass and do it- make up your own route and do your own ride instead of having to use someone elses hard work, that is just proof positive of a LAZY non contributor
This isn't open for debate, it won't be rammed down ones throat. This is this way it is, certain people will not share and certain people will !! I could really care less which group you fall in, but you do need to respect the wishes of those that don't want them shared.
It is that Black and white.
This thread is another one of those argueing idiot threads that makes no sense.
Why can't we just get along? I'll tell you why-it is because there are far too many lazyasses who need everything handed to them, and feel they deserve it that way.
My take- Fuck you, shut up and go away or start contributing something useful !
I still feel this forum needs to be locked down so only members can view anything, and we need to weed out the riff raff.I added a poll thread for this simple question !
Plus just like someones tagline- I hate forums, for this reason-too many idiots with internet access and too much idle time with too stupid of posts.
Just because some people want to share and some don't doesn't mean either side is in the wrong or in the right- what is wrong is idiots posting up argueing that it is their way and their way alone in regards to their belief that everyone has to share or not share- GTFU !
I can no longer be affiliated with this type of rhetoric.
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The solution is very simple and all the whiners on here saying it has to be their way are idiots. YOU should take YOUR ball and go home- delete YOUR account and leave-please !! Do yourself and us all a favor
Respect the route creators wishes-and stop stealing their routes and stop attending any of their rides, then stop whining like little babies about the fact some people don't want YOU to have it!
If they are so damn easy to create and execute-get off your lazy ass and do it- make up your own route and do your own ride instead of having to use someone elses hard work, that is just proof positive of a LAZY non contributor
This isn't open for debate, it won't be rammed down ones throat. This is this way it is, certain people will not share and certain people will !! I could really care less which group you fall in, but you do need to respect the wishes of those that don't want them shared.
It is that Black and white.
This thread is another one of those argueing idiot threads that makes no sense.
Why can't we just get along? I'll tell you why-it is because there are far too many lazyasses who need everything handed to them, and feel they deserve it that way.
My take- Fuck you, shut up and go away or start contributing something useful !
I still feel this forum needs to be locked down so only members can view anything, and we need to weed out the riff raff.I added a poll thread for this simple question !
Plus just like someones tagline- I hate forums, for this reason-too many idiots with internet access and too much idle time with too stupid of posts.
Just because some people want to share and some don't doesn't mean either side is in the wrong or in the right- what is wrong is idiots posting up argueing that it is their way and their way alone in regards to their belief that everyone has to share or not share- GTFU !
Unfortunately Lloyd, the only person I see trying to ram something down the throats of others is you.
You ask in your post
Why can't we just get along?
Your post is an example of why.
I'd really like to keep things open on this forum. No personal attacks. An open environment where people can share their opinions and thoughts without having others attack them, castigate or denigrate them, bully them or make them feel unwelcome.
I'm locking this thread. The first and hopefully last time I have to do this. May it serve as example of taking it too far.