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General Category => General Banter => Topic started by: Greg on October 31, 2011, 10:37:49 AM
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Don’t the “how to ride” manuals (beginner riding schools as well?) teach that you should place your left foot down when stopping at a light? I believe the logic there is that your right foot is then still on the foot peg to cover your rear brake.
This has always been maddening to me. Unless you’re riding in San Francisco with it’s ridiculous hills, IMO you really don’t need to apply both brakes (after coming to a stop) when stopping at a light. I feel I can manage the bike just fine with only my front brake (if even THAT) applied.
I know often when I’m riding in a group setting and several bikes are in front of me while waiting at a light, I’ll feel like the black sheep when I see everyone placing their left foot down and I’m placing my right, ha!
How do others feel about this?
World financial markets collapsing?
Starving children in North Korea?
Occupy Wall Street criminals (oops, I mean protesters) rioting?
Housing values plummeting?
NO! Right – left shuffle is on my mind this dreadful Monday morning. :P
Greg
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It seems that a lot of riders have been trained in the MSF Basic RiderCourse (BRC), and the BRC teaches new riders to put their left foot down first, as you've noticed. It's my own belief that a lot of techniques from the BRC are good techniques for total novices who are going to learn in a setting with as many as 11 other strangers who are also total novices, but these same techniques aren't necessarily good for experienced and advanced riders. Still, lots of riders continue to use the BRC techniques, either out of habit or because they don't see any value in changing.
I think putting your right foot down first is perfectly fine, and so are other techniques that aren't taught in a Basic RiderCourse, like one- or two-finger braking, or using brake and throttle together, or braking while leaned over.
Brent
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I think you may be overthinking it. It probably doesn't bother others that you have right, left, or no feet down. As long as you don't run into anyone, and stay in control........at speed or at stops, it is your biz.
But if you want to dissect this, let's go for it. Not only is it a good procedure to be consistent and have a routine of alway left, it also benefits most people to control their front brake when the bars are at that angle vs the bars angling downward. better angle and better control during mishaps. same applies to rear brake if used.
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you're suppose to put your feet down at stops???????
now you tell me
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it also benefits most people to control their front brake when the bars are at that angle vs the bars angling downward. better angle and better control during mishaps. same applies to rear brake if used.
I try to have my bars square to the bike when I stop, and I try to avoid "bars angling downward,' especially on my street bikes. ;D Seriously, I don't get what you're saying above. Probably just me. ???
I don't think Greg's overthinking anything. I think every technique is worth evaluating, especially those we do multiple times on every ride. I mean, unless you're Lloyd, how long can you ride without putting your feet down? Most of us put our feet down several dozen times every time we ride.
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MSF does (or at least did) teach left foot down, with the bike in first gear and clutch disengaged. In this condition you're ready to move forward at a moments notice. They teach this as a safety technique. I taught this because it was required but I never agreed with it. IMHO, sitting there with the clutch disengaged puts unnecessary wear and tear on the clutch and clutch cable and doesn't really add to your safety. A proper scan that includes keeping an eye on your mirrors will give you plenty of warning that you need to move.
I stop with my right foot down and the bike in neutral but my left foot covering the shift lever and ready to shift into first as soon as I need to. If you need to hold the bike on a hill, you can use the front brake lever with your index and middle fingers and use the other three fingers to operate the throttle. It takes a bit of practice to be smooth doing this but it's not that hard.
Dale B
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i'm a right-foot down kinda guy and i recall getting scolded pretty hard in the ERC for doing that. basically i would say that i rarely downshift into 1st approaching a stop so i need to do that while stopped (sometimes several gears if the stop was abrupt enough), and obviously i'd have to switch feet if i had originally stopped with my left foot down. i also rarely use my rear brake, which could be related.
sometimes the planets align and i'll use my rear brake, get down into 1st prior to stopping and put down my left foot. i usually smile when that happens (reference ERC story above).
a.s.
p.s. i also rarely sit in neutral (not that it bothers me when others do, though), only when i need my clutch hand for something like texting or whatever.
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i'm a right-foot down kinda guy and i recall getting scolded pretty hard in the ERC for doing that.
Pretty common for RiderCoaches to carry BRC techniques into the ERC and into their everyday riding. Most BRC techniques aren't harmful, but some of them are used in BRC primarily to create a safe environment. Some of those techniques aren't necessarily the best techniques for experienced riders.
p.s. i also rarely sit in neutral (not that it bothers me when others do, though), only when i need my clutch hand for something like texting or whatever.
You do that too? :o I thought I was the only one!! Do you usually hold your phone in your right hand when riding? Or do you put it in your tankbag's map pocket? Maybe we should start a new topic about using phones while riding. ;)
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It seems that a lot of riders have been trained in the MSF Basic RiderCourse (BRC), and the BRC teaches new riders to put their left foot down first, as you've noticed. It's my own belief that a lot of techniques from the BRC are good techniques for total novices who are going to learn in a setting with as many as 11 other strangers who are also total novices, but these same techniques aren't necessarily good for experienced and advanced riders. Still, lots of riders continue to use the BRC techniques, either out of habit or because they don't see any value in changing.
I think putting your right foot down first is perfectly fine, and so are other techniques that aren't taught in a Basic RiderCourse, like one- or two-finger braking, or using brake and throttle together, or braking while leaned over.
Brent
Good points Brent, I agree with your highlighted thoughts.
Also ... referencing your point about "braking while leaned over" ... I fully understand why it's drilled into new rider's heads "don't brake in corners or while leaned over", and to that point, any rider who's ridden many years and miles knows that of course you can brake while leaned over, albeit you need to be very delicate in on brakes. (And to extrapolate that point out farther .... the rider arguably made an error going into the corner if they had to brake while leaned over)
MSF does (or at least did) teach left foot down, with the bike in first gear and clutch disengaged. In this condition you're ready to move forward at a moments notice. They teach this as a safety technique. I taught this because it was required but I never agreed with it. IMHO, sitting there with the clutch disengaged puts unnecessary wear and tear on the clutch and clutch cable and doesn't really add to your safety. A proper scan that includes keeping an eye on your mirrors will give you plenty of warning that you need to move.
I stop with my right foot down and the bike in neutral but my left foot covering the shift lever and ready to shift into first as soon as I need to. If you need to hold the bike on a hill, you can use the front brake lever with your index and middle fingers and use the other three fingers to operate the throttle. It takes a bit of practice to be smooth doing this but it's not that hard.
Dale B
Dale, I agree with your highlighted points above and that's pretty much exactly how I'm behaving at a stop though with my right foot down. I also want to point out that being rear-ended while at a stop is an often overlooked danger we all face.
i'm a right-foot down kinda guy and i recall getting scolded pretty hard in the ERC for doing that. basically i would say that i rarely downshift into 1st approaching a stop so i need to do that while stopped (sometimes several gears if the stop was abrupt enough), and obviously i'd have to switch feet if i had originally stopped with my left foot down. i also rarely use my rear brake, which could be related.
sometimes the planets align and i'll use my rear brake, get down into 1st prior to stopping and put down my left foot. i usually smile when that happens (reference ERC story above).
a.s.
p.s. i also rarely sit in neutral (not that it bothers me when others do, though), only when i need my clutch hand for something like texting or whatever.
A.S., , Interesting perspective. I as well rarely (almost never?) downshift to 1st when coming to a stop. After I've shifted down to 3rd, I may just apply clutch and then downshift all the way to neutral. But it rarely is the same way each stop. Traffic conditions, people I'm with, mood for the day, whether or not the MRS was cozy that morning ;)
i'm a right-foot down kinda guy and i recall getting scolded pretty hard in the ERC for doing that.
Pretty common for RiderCoaches to carry BRC techniques into the ERC and into their everyday riding. Most BRC techniques aren't harmful, but some of them are used in BRC primarily to create a safe environment. Some of those techniques aren't necessarily the best techniques for experienced riders.
p.s. i also rarely sit in neutral (not that it bothers me when others do, though), only when i need my clutch hand for something like texting or whatever.
You do that too? :o I thought I was the only one!! Do you usually hold your phone in your right hand when riding? Or do you put it in your tankbag's map pocket? Maybe we should start a new topic about using phones while riding. ;)
Brent, I agree wholeheartedly with your first highlighted quote above. This is also the case with loud neon vests. I fully understand the safety issues that encourage the use of them .... but would Fonzie wear one? 8)
.... cause of course, it's all about the pose. (sarcasm)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/tgyeti/fonzie_henry_winkler_happy_days.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad343/tgyeti/fonzie_s1e6-001.jpg)
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Depends on the situation for me. I am a left-footer for longer stops (stoplight, waiting at a stop sign to regroup etc). I like being able to pull my hands off the bars and sit upright in those settings. I don't like feeling that I'm fighting the bike to keep it from rolling when stopped on any kind of slope so I just about always keep the rear brake covered. For short "stops" (pulling through a stop sign with no cross traffic) I am a no-footer because I don't usually come to a complete stop...
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All else equal - left foot down. I do that because I modulate off the front brakes coming to a stop and add in a bit of rear.
When on a sloped pavement where right side is higher, I put my right foot down. If I am going into neutral then I put right foot down so I can quickly shift into first. On the tall motard, it looks comical when I put left foot down and then choose to go to neutral.
I admit to judging others based on this item. Sorry.
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I admit to judging others based on this item. Sorry.
Clarification, please? :D (seriously and amicably, I'd like to understand your perspective on this)
Andy
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*Footnote*: I'm an avid bicyclist as well and 99% of the time I unclip and put my right foot down when stopping (on pavement or dirt, off camber being the only exceptions)
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All else equal - left foot down. I do that because I modulate off the front brakes coming to a stop and add in a bit of rear.
When on a sloped pavement where right side is higher, I put my right foot down. If I am going into neutral then I put right foot down so I can quickly shift into first.
+1, including it depends a bit on the situation.
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Right foot down for me
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With a 30' inseam, both legs are out, and it is a crap shoot as to which leg touches down first. If on a incline/decline; butt shifted over to left so i can flat-foot, with the my right foot on the rear break. Whatever works is my motto.
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haha funny topic Greg. I often think the same thing, mostly when I'm out riding solo I think about stuff like that. When I am stopped I find myself remembering to tell myself that I'm supposed to put my left foot down so I can stay on the brake with my right. Then I realize that's stupid with the front brake at my finger tips.
I usually am in neutral at stops. I realize that it is better to keep my left foot up so I can quickly shift into 1st if I had to move quickly, eliminating foot shuffling.
I think the MSF teaches left foot down to make the course easier for the instructors because so many riders are SO new to bikes they can't coordinate using the right hands for both throttle and braking, and they would just roll back into eachother and tip over when stopped for practice if their right foot wasn't on the rear brake all the time.
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I admit to judging others based on this item. Sorry.
Clarification, please? :D (seriously and amicably, I'd like to understand your perspective on this)
Andy
I started teaching for the MSF in '82 after teaching myself to ride. I liked the fact that we did things for a reason and there was skill to be demonstrated by giving the left bar a nudge coming to a stop and the left foot touched down expertly. It was many years before I realized that there were different ways to correctly ride a motorcycle and I'd only been given a good starting point. By then it was too late, I'd developed the bad habit of judging others' motorcycle riders' manouvers thinking I had been given the secret "right way". Luckily, when I teach these days I include comments like, "There are thousands of ways to go around a corner when you consider lane placement, brake usage, throttle application, where your eyes are, body position, etc. Out of those thousands of ways, there are only 2 wrong ways; ride off the inside of the curve and ride off the outside!"
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I think the MSF teaches left foot down to make the course easier for the instructors because so many riders are SO new to bikes they can't coordinate using the right hands for both throttle and braking, and they would just roll back into eachother and tip over when stopped for practice if their right foot wasn't on the rear brake all the time.
Sounds plausible unless you know that MSF teaches always using BOTH brakes to slow or to stop. MSF suggests left foot down first, but doesn't say the right foot needs to stay on the brake when stopped.
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I think the MSF teaches left foot down to make the course easier for the instructors because so many riders are SO new to bikes they can't coordinate using the right hands for both throttle and braking, and they would just roll back into eachother and tip over when stopped for practice if their right foot wasn't on the rear brake all the time.
Sounds plausible unless you know that MSF teaches always using BOTH brakes to slow or to stop. MSF suggests left foot down first, but doesn't say the right foot needs to stay on the brake when stopped.
yes, yes, I did the BRC and then the BRC and Advanced again 7 years later. I drank the koolaid, good stuff. I just remember having a fun time when we setup the race course in the ARC and the instructor said go ahead and have as much fun as possible with all of the skills you've practiced for the last 2 hours of the course ;D
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I admit to judging others based on this item. Sorry.
Clarification, please? :D (seriously and amicably, I'd like to understand your perspective on this)
Andy
I liked the fact that we did things for a reason and there was skill to be demonstrated by giving the left bar a nudge coming to a stop and the left foot touched down expertly.
Cool beans, thanks for the insight! Old habits (and thoughts) die hard, eh? Regarding slowcounter-steering, you should see the thread on ADV rider about that, that was a fun ride, lol.
Andy
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Left foot down for me.
29" inseam, I need every bit of distance shortening to help with stability when stopped. The crown of the road helps. Whenever I have to put my right foot down, I have to be careful to make sure I can put it down far enough to prevent the bike from leaning too far for me to prevent it from going over. Dicey for me to start from a stop with my right foot down, when the road is heavily crowned too since I have to have my body and therefore body weight so far over on the downhill side of the bike.
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Well since I was out yesterday I just do what ever. If I'm going to stop and put it in neutral I put my right foot down and use my finger, but I still may put my right foot down no matter what I plan to do. If I'm on a hill I may do the left foot or just use my fingers. Using the front brake and the throttle work at the same time. I just don't see any point to which foot I put down. Maybe I put down both more than one or the other.
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Ok, Vince goes both ways . . .
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Ok, Vince goes both ways . . .
LOL
I always suspected there was something different about that guy :D