The Answer to Whether You Can Join a Ride Posted on the Forum

[Ray916MN]

Hopefully this post will help folks figure out whether a ride posted on the forum will be appropriate for them to join.

This forum places the onus on riders to be responsible for making sure they are prepared and capable of joining a ride posted on the forum. Over a decade of running group rides, the forum believes that first and foremost ride safety is the responsibility of each rider on a ride, not the group, and not the ride organizer or a ride leader. The default assumption of folks in this forum is if you have an accident is that it was your fault.

Everyone is expected to ride their own ride. This means if people are riding faster or slower than you want to, that's fine. This means you should not follow with a sub 2 second gap so you can follow the line of the rider in front you. No one is expected to keep up. Everyone is expected to have a way of carrying a route sheet and to be capable of using a route sheet to self navigate the ride route. To ride your own ride you should not be totally reliant on keeping up with other riders to ride the ride route.

We ride the Pace (click here to read about it). Hitting triple digits and using heavy braking on rides demonstrate a lack of skill and a good street riding attitude.

The preceding is the default expectation for rides on the forum. Deviations from this default will usually be noted by the organizer of a ride in their ride post. If you have a question about a specific ride, post it to the ride posting. For more on our rides, please read our MSTA Ride Guide - Read Before Doing an MSTA Ride.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Perhaps it should be phrased as whether you SHOULD instead of whether you CAN?

[Hope2Ride]

As a beginner rider I don't attend too many group rides unless they specifically say they are for beginners or I've talked to the ride organizer. For ex. Yesterdays ride said clearly it was not for beginners but I was able to ride 2 up and had a blast 

I guess agree more with Lloyd that  whether or not you SHOULD go is something to consider. I am capable of riding my own ride and it doesn't bother me when people pass me and the gap grows. I have self discipline to not push myself to keep up and wind up crashing. I also know how to navigate and use route sheets. I may not be good with directions, but I'm also a female so i don't mind pulling over to ask, lol. As I'm learning to ride I am also familiar with "the pace" since I'm learning from the best.... Sexy ex-racers  So by definition I would be capable of joining group rides but I don't feel that I should. I think one of two things would happen, either the group would wind waiting on me a lot or they would get so far ahead I would be on my own anyways. Of course this is just my opinion and personal experiences but if someone else is a new rider I don't necessarily think most group rides will cater to beginners.

[Mike Duluth]

Jackass, idiot, douchebag, tool, tom dick, and this is just one post. Is this all necessary to make a point? I would think that most people would be more likely to listen to someone who isn't calling everyone names all the time. Just my opinion.

[Mike Duluth]

Everyone knows I don't mince words and am more than willing to tell it just as I see it.

Anyone who doesn't want to read my posts.....block me please---you do have that option !!!

You should appreciate my complete honesty. (even if you don't like the way I phrase it)As allways I think you have some good ideas, just think you would be taken more serious if you wouldn't be so offensive

People I do like will know I like them, people I don't will clearly know I don't. I won't apologize for that.

As allways I think you have some good ideas,  just that people might take you more serious if you were not so offensive all the time.

[Mike Duluth]

Your ideas will do way more good if you came across a little more rational. You sometime sound like an angry person and it doesn't get your points across very well to the people who could use some of your good advice.

[Jvs]

And some people can stick to the 10 over pace (for the majority of the ride atleast). Ask ride alot or Matt, the few rides I've led we've kept a sane Pace and had no crashes tickets or close calls. Though sure its hard to post real speeds on an online forum for a ride your gonna lead (for obvious reasons) people need to know what there really gonna expect when it comes time for the ride. People can ride whatever way they want but if they show up at a ride posted at such and such pace for so and so miles, that needs to be maintained or things turn bad real quick

[Hope2Ride]

Only problem I see with two different groups is opinions as to who would belong in each group and who would make that decision because you know there will be persons who believe in thier own minds that they belong in one group but in actuality don't. And what do you do with newbies like myself or people new to the forum that you don't know thier riding style? I'm new to riding on my own but not new to riding and have seen a lot of what you're talking about so I totally understand where you are coming from but I don't know what the best solution is... as for group rides anyways.

[carlson_mn]

I think Ray answered the above questions/arguments in his original post.

Everyone is expected to ride their own ride. This means if people are riding faster or slower than you want to, that's fine. This means you should not follow with a sub 2 second gap so you can follow the line of the rider in front you. No one is expected to keep up. Everyone is expected to have a way of carrying a route sheet and to be capable of using a route sheet to self navigate the ride route. To ride your own ride you should not be totally reliant on keeping up with other riders to ride the ride route.

[Mike Duluth]

There is no reason you can't split into more than one group on a group ride. We did it last weekend and everything worked out just fine. This is the second time that I rode with  Ray that he has done this and it seems to work great.

[Ray916MN]

First and foremost the notion here is to ride your own ride.

This means whatever pace you feel comfortable with. This means someone like Hope should have no problems being on a ride. Of course since no one else may ride the same pace as her, she might end up riding alone, but there is no guarantee that there will always be someone on a ride who wants to ride at the same pace anyone wants to ride at. It also means that our rides should be fine for a bunch of new riders to show up and do the route as long as like Hope, they have the maturity and attitude to ride their own ride and can self navigate. At the other end of the spectrum a group of "fast" folks can also show up an do the ride. I think everyone should join our rides.

I don't think everyone should (yes, probably a better word choice than "can") join a ride, because many folks don't have the right attitude and/or are not capable of self navigating. The self proclaimed "fast", all too often may feel the leaders ride too slowly, but can''t seem to figure out how to self navigate, so they don't have to follow someone else. The self proclaimed "slow", worry about holding everyone up, but if they are willing to self navigate and ride their own ride, then they won't be holding anyone up. In either the case, the "fast" or the "slow" who are not willing to self navigate will find themselves relying on everyone else on the ride.

What's too fast? What's irresponsible riding? Unfortunately allot of this is a judgement call and while we probably all agree on what is flagrant it seems like we might not agree when it isn't so clear cut. I know there are people who think I ride too fast at times and ride irresponsibly at times. Sometimes I think they're right, and sometimes I think they're wrong. So what? Do we all need to agree at every instant? If this is the case, we will all ride at the lowest common denominator, very slowly and cautiously. Does someone assert their opinion so forcefully that everyone should be compelled to do it their way? How does doing things someone else's way, make sense in the context of riding your own ride? Do we create a set of rules, to make it easier for everyone to know and be judged by? What would they be beyond traffic laws, and how would anything but strict obeyance of traffic laws be rationalized? So where does this leave us?

It is really pretty simple. Everyone should ride their own ride. Everyone should ride responsibly and safely. What this means in practice is  we develop a group understanding of what this means (e.g riding under control, riding within your limits, riding the Pace, maintaining safe following distances, being prepared and able to self navigate). If someone rides too fast or irresponsibly in your opinion, feel free to say something to them if you wish and don't ride with them. Keep in mind, just because someone feels someone else rides too fast or irresponsibly, unless the majority feel this way, it is just someone's opinion. If everyone feels the same way or understands things the same way, then we don't need rules and we don't need two sub forums.

As Hope points out,

Only problem I see with two different groups is opinions as to who would belong in each group and who would make that decision because you know there will be persons who believe in thier own minds that they belong in one group but in actuality don't.

Which leaves us with, what does it mean when you encourage people to ride their own ride, but tell them you're going to judge how they ride and decide whether it meets your approval or not? To me, it means that you don't want them to ride their own ride, you want them to ride your ride.

[Aprilian]

If this is the case, we will all ride at the lowest common denominator, very slowly and cautiously.

I've always wanted to own one of these;)

we don't need stinkin rules

Fixed for you

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Ray- "First and foremost the notion here is to ride your own ride.'

And the vast majority of riders don't have a clue what this means or how it actually applies to them personally.

Ray-"What's too fast? What's irresponsible riding? Unfortunately allot of this is a judgement call and while we probably all agree on what is flagrant it seems like we might not agree when it isn't so clear cut. "

Well is anyone really trying to defend a video showing the speedo sweep past 100mph, or a 2 bike length following distance, or crossing the double yellow multiple times....


Here is one of my major issues;

You get people claiming to "only" ride 10 over in the straights, they post that in the ride thread then they are WOT out of every corner and running at or above triple digits on the actual ride.
 Not to pick on Hope-but since you brought her up. She can easily run +10 on the straights, so that advertised ride would seem to have fit right in to how she can or wants to ride......She would have been rudely awoken at the pace that was actually run and had to have abandoned the ride or atleast the group and then been solo....People attend group rides in part for the socialization aspect----so why attend a group ride if you are going to be "left"---Yes I know riders on that ride who are far "faster" than Hope that were "left". So it isn't a Hopes skill level issue...This was way beyond "safe" or "pace"---you guys posts and texts to me all saying how "I was suprised nobody crashed"---well gewhiz....slow down a little and reduce the risk factor. If I led a ride and was "suprised" nobody crashed-I would totally rethink how I led and feel like an idiot for putting others in that position. (sure they need to take responsibility for their riding, but I and you and most others know they don't-so the burden falls on "us")

Ray-"Does someone assert their opinion so forcefully that everyone should be compelled to do it their way? How does doing things someone else's way, make sense in the context of riding your own ride?"

 ON my rides your damn right I will exert my force to its fullest, anyone who doesn't like it should not attend my rides and STFU....you can do the same on your rides.
 But the "club" does have some responsibility and some image and some accountability to how rides are run by its members, despite a few saying......oh "it is what it is"
If you really don't give a shit if people ride like idiots on mn-msta posted rides (or any ride for that matter), then why give a shit if they wear a helmet? Why give a shit if they wear any gear? Why give a shit how they post on the forum? Why give a shit at all? Why provide lip service of trying to make sure everyone is "proficient" and understands and follows all your points you made about "expectations"?

Ray-"It is really pretty simple. Everyone should ride their own ride. Everyone should ride responsibly and safely. What this means in practice is  we develop a group understanding of what this means (e.g riding under control, riding within your limits, riding the Pace, maintaining safe following distances, being prepared and able to self navigate)."

It sounds simple-but it goes back to the vast majority of riders overestimate their riding skills. The vast majority don't have a clue what riding under control is. The vast majority don't know what riding within your limits is. The vast majority are unable to actually ride the pace. The vast majority don't know what maintaining safe following distance is, as far too many think a couple bike lengths is more than adequate. The vast majority are unable or unwilling to self navigate...Hell the vast majority would slow way down if they were forced to lead, since the vast majority simply rely solely on the person in front of them to do all their thinking and planning for corner speed, line etc....I believe the most all  MSTA members do agree on what is wreckless, unsafe and idiotic--thus they also agree on what is safe and responsible....

Who are these "vast majority" well it ain't me or about 2 dozen riding enthusiasts I could list off the top of my head-but it is "members" who post up rides, attend rides, ruin rides (then of course the majority of the population of motorcyclists)

So do you want MN-MSTA to be lip service and just some other hack organization like TA , ZG or MNSBR where you say one thing but do another......or do you actually want it to be better?
 

Sundays ride was against nearly every point you made in your claim of what you expect on MN-MSTA rides......just as a very recent example- There are dozens of examples from last summer too--some even put of video tape evidence of such douchebaggery.

I can't make that choice for anyone, but I damn sure will express my displeasure and opinion on it.
 I damn sure won't allow anyone I deem unsafe or idiotic on any of my rides or to ride with me if I attend someone elses.... And I definitely have that right !


"If someone rides too fast or irresponsibly in your opinion, feel free to say something to them if you wish and don't ride with them. Keep in mind, just because someone feels someone else rides too fast or irresponsibly, unless the majority feel this way, it is just someones opinion."

Oh I do !!!
 Simply put-I am the most vocal of idiotic riding, furthermore my definition of idiotic is probably the same as most members opinions I give a shit about (as many of them have told me so). SO I am willing to bet you do already have a majority agreeing on what is too fast or irresponsibly, not just my outspoken opinion....


There is no harm in having 2 ride sections.......one for official MN-MSTA supported rides and one for everything else...Arguing otherwise is just stupid.

[carlson_mn]

Sundays ride was against nearly every point you made in your claim of what you expect on MN-MSTA rides......just as a very recent example- There are dozens of examples from last summer too--some even put of video tape evidence of such douchebaggery.

Coming from the ultimate Troll .... who wasn't there ( never has been, never will be ), blatantly lies (tell me where anyone hit triple digits?), sends hilariously PM's to me as if he's the Chief of Police of Motorcycling - don't you wish you were??, and is obviously obsessed with the way I ride.  I've got a great life and a great hobby of motorcycling, and nothing to defend in my manner of riding.  However I ride is the way I ride.  So go ahead and text your riding buddies and come up with another small-dick response.  What you say I and most others could care less.  I introduced myself to you in person and you looked like an awkward school boy who got called out - you had nothing to say to me in person. 

Go ahead and make your own invite only forum, and you can make yourself that much happier.  Or keep on destroying threads here ... but at least its entertaining to us.  I'm sure you'll PM me soon, look forward to another laugh, or you can just keep quoting me if I've made that great an impact on you.

+10 to me means +10 on any road that has traffic, any major highway, any place that puts you in a likely position to meet a radar gun.  Anyone with half a dick figures that out pretty quickly with me, I'm slow in the straights and ride my own ride in the foothills.  How anyone chooses to ride in the twisties of the WI alphabet roads - keep it safe around the general public and other riders and I don't care.  Ride your own ride and enjoy motorcycling. 

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Sundays ride was against nearly every point you made in your claim of what you expect on MN-MSTA rides......just as a very recent example- There are dozens of examples from last summer too--some even put of video tape evidence of such douchebaggery.

Coming from the ultimate Troll .... who wasn't there ( never has been, never will be ), blatantly lies (tell me where anyone hit triple digits?), sends hilariously PM's to me as if he's the Chief of Police of Motorcycling - don't you wish you were??, and is obviously obsessed with the way I ride.  I've got a great life and a great hobby of motorcycling, and nothing to defend in my manner of riding.  However I ride is the way I ride.  So go ahead and text your riding buddies and come up with another small-dick response.  What you say I and most others could care less.  I introduced myself to you in person and you looked like an awkward school boy who got called out - you had nothing to say to me in person. 

Go ahead and make your own invite only forum, and you can make yourself that much happier.  Or keep on destroying threads here ... but at least its entertaining to us.  I'm sure you'll PM me soon, look forward to another laugh, or you can just keep quoting me if I've made that great an impact on you.

+10 to me means +10 on any road that has traffic, any major highway, any place that puts you in a likely position to meet a radar gun.  Anyone with half a dick figures that out pretty quickly with me, I'm slow in the straights and ride my own ride in the foothills.  How anyone chooses to ride in the twisties of the WI alphabet roads - keep it safe around the general public and other riders and I don't care.  Ride your own ride and enjoy motorcycling. 

You make me laugh....

Simply watch 'gramps" video---you can clearly watch the speedo sweep right past 100.

Simply ask a couple of the riders on that ride. Since you claim I am lying about it..

 I am quite sure any of them would answer your question.....

My pm to you; (being the chief of police of motorcycling and all)

" I do not agree with your 90mph assessment.

90 is never necessary to make a pass even if you think you are opening up a gap big enough for all those idiots behind you--it is there job to pass on there own and safely......The whole chain of events with slamming on the brakes and creating panic in the group and "hanging" some out to dry is evidence enough


But whatever--you ride how you want (I am sure Supraman would fit right in) and I will ride how I want......away from riders with your way of thinking"

and the other one;
"
Not only did you pass at 90mph needlessly in my opinion--

But the ride was led near triple digits for the majority of the day....Most said it was around 95mph for the majority of the ride.

So obviously your 90+mph pass isn't a big deal....

Vince and others made it sound like you hit the brakes....and even your statement of seeing what you thought was a cop car and slowing--well coasting downhill at 95 or whatever speed isn't going to slow you down enough if in fact that is a cop car awaitng the arival of potential ticket recipients....


Your statement of not getting any tickets...tickets are totally random happenstance---some people ride like jackasses all the time and rarely or never get tickets, others ride at 10 over and get caught regularly...Ticket count has nothing to do with how good a rider you are, or how "safe" you ride...."

You introduced yourself to me---well you didn't leave much of an impression on me. I obviously had nothing to say to you at the time.