The Answer to Whether You Can Join a Ride Posted on the Forum

[Ray916MN]

.....
4) Following Distance - the posted videos suck folks.   Only one rider (the lead rider) is actually plotting a line and exercising that part of ride-craft.   The rest of you are following so close that you have no need to pick a line.   Sheesh, drop back a bit and practice your craft, if you want it to be an on-road race, Frickin pass the guy already! If you don't want to do either then it is just a warp-speed parade

This comment raises an important question to consider in the context of "riding your own ride" which I think bears some discussion.

When a group rides too fast or recklessly who is to blame? The leader or the followers?

If the leader is riding too fast or recklessly which makes more sense to do: Follow their too fast and reckless lead and talk to the leader at the next stop or slow down and let the leader disappear into the distance?

One of the things we focus on including for rides is a route sheet and on riders knowing how to self navigate. By making sure a route sheet for a ride is available to everyone, we seek to make sure anyone and everyone knows everything the ride leader needs to know to lead, so if followers don't like the way a ride is being led, they can let the ride leader ride off in the distance if they want to. Followers don't have to ride too fast or recklessly if they don't want to.

So, in the context of a "ride your own ride" with a published route sheet, when a group rides too fast and recklessly is the leader to blame or the followers?

[tk]

"Two rides at the same time is not a big deal it offers choices, choices are good."

This I agree with 100%. In the old days (Yahoo board) we would pride ourselves in having multiple rides posted for the same day. They often went different directions.

[Mike Duluth]

I had fun on all the rides I've been on with this crew. Some were better than others and there are some of you I would think twice about riding alone with. But as a group this place is the best and I would say that any who truely loves to ride would agree. There is plenty of contrast in the riders around here and for me that just makes it more interesting. I have met some of the best street riders in my life because of MN-MSTA and our worst riders are far better than the worst I've seen. So lets keep this place the way it was intented so even a guy like me will fit in.

[Ray916MN]

"Two rides at the same time is not a big deal it offers choices, choices are good."

This I agree with 100%. In the old days (Yahoo board) we would pride ourselves in having multiple rides posted for the same day. They often went different directions.

Yeah and in the old days of the Yahoo Board everything was in a single forum instead of the 7 sub forums we have now. I think Roger preferred the Yahoo Group format to the current format because of its simplicity and singularity and if you read his sig, you'll probably see that he still dislike forums.

Since anyone can subscribe to a sub forum, maybe we should open the discussion up and set up even more sub forums. I'm, already committed to setting up a Safety sub forum, we could have Brand specific forums, Region (NW, W, SW, S, SE, E, NE, WI and IA) specific forums, a Technical forum, a Vendor forum, an Off Road forum, an MSTA Member's only forum, .....

Then again, if you're a paying MN-MSTA member you already receive a notice in the state newsletter about up coming rides and anyone who is specifically interested in MN-MSTA official rides can subscribe to the ride posts themselves. The MN-MSTA ride calendar is the only thing that got force distributed via email to everyone who is registered to the forum. If we want to showcase MN-MSTA rides a better way to do so would be to force distribute the posts for these rides to every registered forum user.

[Aprilian]

Because following distance comes up a lot, I could suggest a simple solution.   Have each rider leave the stop/turn one at a time.   The following rider would wait a minute then leave.  That way you start with a decent gap and everyone gets to ride thier own ride.   Leaving in a pack tends to cause "pack riding" and "pack mentality".    I got a local group really pissed off last fall when I posted on an accident thread that the group was riding too close together.  There was an accident and the bike that crashed into them took out a couple riders.  What they refused to hear was that their close riding caused 2 bikes to be impacted and that the worst hurt individual may have been able to see the other bike coming sooner and (if space was available around him) take evasive action.  Yes that is hypothetical - but I followed this pack along MN60 and they made our 2 second gap look like an eternity.

[flyinlow]

Seriously, keep the forum the way it is. I work in technology and one of the things I drill into the people who work for me is to not get caught up in the technology. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" and "The KISS principle" are the things I tell them daily. In the end, this gives you usable technology that can be implemented quickly and maintained.

I see no reason not to follow those same principles here. Just trying to follow the three pages of posts on this topic and all the theories and ideas is making my head spin. Say what you want about the other forums, but they take a much simpler approach to organizing rides and it works. Granted, no one puts restrictions on who should join a ride or not, other than they do list whether its a beginners ride or not. Not here to debate who is a beginner or not or how those "douchebags" ride, just merely saying they have something that works.

I think the simplest way to do it is what I have seen on here from time to time, which is invitation only rides or MN-MSTA official rides. Otherwise a ride posted up should just be open and the ride organizer has the right to reject anyone from a ride that shows up that they feel is not adequately prepared, gear or bike, or if on the ride they are not riding up to the standard of the ride leader, the ride leader can stop the ride at any time and ask that person to leave. When people post rides on here I think they do a good job of setting the tone for the ride, how it should be ridden, if they are expected to be able to self navigate, etc. Seems pretty simple to me, its up to the ride leader to set the standard and hold people to it. If we kicked people out of a ride we don't feel are riding properly, two things happen. Either they never show up again, or they learn (or at least try to learn) how to ride properly.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 ^^^^
 But this continues to put all the burden on the ride "leader"/ "organizer". Which is a big fail in my book and past experience has proven leaders disappear under that burden.


Even though I have always felt as the ride leader the responsibility for the safety, fun and pace of the group...I sure as hell don't think it ought to be that way nor do I even like it that way. And with the ride "leader/organizer" being so responsible as you suggest is it any suprise we have so few of them and far too many "followers" looking to be led.

Lets fix one thing everyone agrees on..

Following distances..........................................that should be easy, right?

[Mike Duluth]

Lets face it, human nature is a hard thing to change. It's all about competition and ego's when we are on these things. I think if we could all see ourselves in a mirror when riding it would look way different than it does in our heads. All we can do for those that ride with little respect for others is to teach by example.

[Chris]

Seriously, keep the forum the way it is. I work in technology and one of the things I drill into the people who work for me is to not get caught up in the technology. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" and "The KISS principle" are the things I tell them daily. In the end, this gives you usable technology that can be implemented quickly and maintained.

I see no reason not to follow those same principles here. Just trying to follow the three pages of posts on this topic and all the theories and ideas is making my head spin. Say what you want about the other forums, but they take a much simpler approach to organizing rides and it works. Granted, no one puts restrictions on who should join a ride or not, other than they do list whether its a beginners ride or not. Not here to debate who is a beginner or not or how those "douchebags" ride, just merely saying they have something that works.

I think the simplest way to do it is what I have seen on here from time to time, which is invitation only rides or MN-MSTA official rides. Otherwise a ride posted up should just be open and the ride organizer has the right to reject anyone from a ride that shows up that they feel is not adequately prepared, gear or bike, or if on the ride they are not riding up to the standard of the ride leader, the ride leader can stop the ride at any time and ask that person to leave. When people post rides on here I think they do a good job of setting the tone for the ride, how it should be ridden, if they are expected to be able to self navigate, etc. Seems pretty simple to me, its up to the ride leader to set the standard and hold people to it. If we kicked people out of a ride we don't feel are riding properly, two things happen. Either they never show up again, or they learn (or at least try to learn) how to ride properly.

If you want to through K.I.S.S. in here (for those that don't know Keep it Simple Stupid), then the adding of the forum would be it, it would keep people form having to do invite only rides and it would have the potential for keeping people form joining a ride where they feel they have to try to keep up. I know the ride your own ride theory and it is good in theory however at some will try to keep up, maybe its ego or they can't self navigate, or they think they can ride like like the others, whatever the reason it will just happen its just how it is, so everybody can keep saying ride your own ride, but think about it in reality how often on the group rides does that happen.

Two sub forums would be simple, one for everybody in the world as it is today. The other one could be done by group (Ray could give some people permissions to do that so it would not fall on him, it would also not give these selected people admin rights to the board) or by number of posts.

I think the issues with having two ride sub forums are:

• People missing rides
• Confusion
• people not liking change
• It was\is Lloyd's idea.

I also think the other issue is over all riding style and safety, which is what prompted the idea for two sub forums.

even though it was Lloyd's idea , I think having two sub forums would be a good idea and hey if it does not get used there is a delete button that can fix it right up.  Change is always hard, some times it works out some times it does not.

[GUZZI JOHN]

 Perhaps there should be an "OBDURATE" section in the forum.GJ

[carlson_mn]

I don't see what the problem is the way it is setup now.  No one forces anyone to attend any group rides.  If somebody puts x2 or x2 +10 in the corners, one should realize the pace of that ride, and if that's not their style then they can post up their own group ride if they want to ride with others and be explicit about how they want to ride.  OR they can attend and be proficient with a route sheet as Ray and the 'forum' advocate, so they can ride their own ride and still socialize at gas stops or a lunch, and learn some new roads as well. 

I have not heard anyone complain about any group rides except those who do not attend them.

[Greg]

I don't see what the problem is the way it is setup now.  No one forces anyone to attend any group rides.  If somebody puts x2 or x2 +10 in the corners, one should realize the pace of that ride, and if that's not their style then they can post up their own group ride if they want to ride with others and be explicit about how they want to ride.  OR they can attend and be proficient with a route sheet as Ray and the 'forum' advocate, so they can ride their own ride and still socialize at gas stops or a lunch, and learn some new roads as well. 

I have not heard anyone complain about any group rides except those who do not attend them.

I agree. Let's stop trying to reinvent the wheel. This thread is sucking all the fun out of riding and coming to this website.

Route sheets work. There were hundreds of experienced, proficient riders at the STAR rally last year. MSTA national uses route sheets. Good enough for me.

Navel gazing sucks.

[Ray916MN]

If you want to through K.I.S.S. in here (for those that don't know Keep it Simple Stupid), then the adding of the forum would be it, it would keep people form having to do invite only rides and it would have the potential for keeping people form joining a ride where they feel they have to try to keep up. I know the ride your own ride theory and it is good in theory however at some will try to keep up, maybe its ego or they can't self navigate, or they think they can ride like like the others, whatever the reason it will just happen its just how it is, so everybody can keep saying ride your own ride, but think about it in reality how often on the group rides does that happen.

Two sub forums would be simple, one for everybody in the world as it is today. The other one could be done by group (Ray could give some people permissions to do that so it would not fall on him, it would also not give these selected people admin rights to the board) or by number of posts.

I think the issues with having two ride sub forums are:

• People missing rides
• Confusion
• people not liking change
• It was\is Lloyd's idea.

I also think the other issue is over all riding style and safety, which is what prompted the idea for two sub forums.

even though it was Lloyd's idea , I think having two sub forums would be a good idea and hey if it does not get used there is a delete button that can fix it right up.  Change is always hard, some times it works out some times it does not.

I'm confused.

It seems you're suggesting a closed sub forum for MN-MSTA official rides. Who would you suggest would be able to see these rides? On what basis would people be included or excluded? Number of posts in no way reflects someone's suitability for an MN-MSTA ride and there are a number of dues paying members on the forum, who never post. What also of riders who are perfectly suited to MN-MSTA rides who join the forum to find a ride who could only see ad hoc rides? Wouldn't a closed sub forum effectively feature ad hoc rides over MN-MSTA rides to them? Wouldn't a closed sub forum for MN-MSTA official rides, do exactly the opposite of showcasing these rides?

If you are suggesting a closed sub forum for some group of riders on the forum which some forum member would control access to, the questions would be, who would these sub forums be created for? Why would some members be able to get their own closed sub forums and some members not be able to get a closed sub forum, or is the idea that anyone who wanted would could get one?

The vast majority of MN-MSTA official rides are open to anyone and everyone (not just dues paying MSTA members). Occasionally there are rides for dues paying members only. Although these rides maybe referenced without details on the forum, the details necessary to participate in these rides are communicated via the state newsletters only to ensure that all dues paying members are proactively notified of them.

[pkpk]

I probably may have never joined the old HSTA had there been no open rides.  Back in 1996 I was invited to come to a ride and enjoyed the riders and ride.  It didn't take many more rides to decide to become a member.  I think closing rides off sends a message of elitism and doesn't attract the riders who simply want to enjoy a social ride on a nice day.

A note of irony, before there was widespread use of the internet, HSTA rides were only advertised with a newsletter and word of mouth.  I recall NO drama regarding ride decorum and everyone was welcome.  You simply picked your riding partners based on their pace.  I recall very little issue over route sheets or ride protocol.  I don't even recall any crash in those newsletter only days.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Perhaps there should be an "OBDURATE" section in the forum.GJ

Sorry John....I now need a chief of police section.....lol

but funny stuff....