Ride your own ride

[carlson_mn]

Of course a group leader could stop at every fork in a route to make sure that everyone takes the correct fork, but frankly when you're riding off a route sheet or a GPS unit, you typically don't even notice the forks in the road and  there is typically no safe place for a group to stop and wait for other riders.

So just to be sure, as a new rider, I should expect to fend for my self. Might as well ride by my self. For me, group rides gave me a comforting feeling that when I make a mistake, some one will be there to scrape me off the ground.

I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.

While riders of different skill and pace levels can ride together and have a great time, as a new rider I would think it's best to stick with people who are going to ride at a similar pace or at least have a group within a group where you at least enjoy keeping each other within view.  I just think that makes a lot more sense especially for a less experienced rider.  That, and it would be a lot more fun.  I always rode with a group of similarly new riders years ago and it was way more fun and comfortable than the idea of me trying to ride off a route sheet with guys on sportbikes with 20+ years of experience who like to do about 100 miles between stops. 

Lay out what you want from fellow riders and start your own rides here or any forum, and you'll find a ton of people who will want to ride with you.  Sport touring is a sport, and like any other sport its most fun if you partake with others who are at a similar level.  You said it yourself, if reading a route sheet is too stressful then I would stick with routes and riders where that is not necessary for a while.  To ask others to wait for you is fine but to expect it every mile of a 300+ route of twisties, you'll have to find riders who are absolutely on the same page and skill level as you for it to be enjoyable for all.  It's not rocket science.

[Ray916MN]

Of course a group leader could stop at every fork in a route to make sure that everyone takes the correct fork, but frankly when you're riding off a route sheet or a GPS unit, you typically don't even notice the forks in the road and  there is typically no safe place for a group to stop and wait for other riders.

So just to be sure, as a new rider, I should expect to fend for my self. Might as well ride by my self. For me, group rides gave me a comforting feeling that when I make a mistake, some one will be there to scrape me off the ground.

I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.

You are clearly not a retard as you get the point about striving to learn to read a route sheet. Most don't.

As a new rider, you should realize at every instant on a ride you are fending for yourself. If other forums provide more comfort they are providing you false comfort. No one else can ride your bike for you, or make choices on the road for you but yourself. When you believe that other riders can do this for you, you are counting on them and since they can't steer, brake or accelerate your bike this is a false comfort.

We try hard not to lose people on rides. We typically wait at every turn for everyone to show up. We provide route sheets so people have another way of avoiding getting lost. We turn around and look for people when they get lost. Sometimes we establish both lead and sweep  riders for groups. Decades of experience tells us that even with all this, people still get lost on rides. People following a leader also need to realize, if they think following a route sheet while riding is difficult, try following a route sheet, while being vigilant for road hazards like gravel, wildlife and traffic and constantly checking your mirrors to make sure you haven't lost anyone. We don't emphasize everything we do to not lose riders, because we want riders to take responsibility for their own ride. The final point is that the only thing that can prevent riders from getting lost on rides is for individual riders to know where the ride is going.

The intent here is not to make anyone feel bad about their riding. The intent here is to make sure people develop the best attitude possible towards riding, so they learn to ride safely, proficiently and responsibly. That attitude is to be responsible for one's own ride and to develop the skills to enable one to be responsible for their own ride. When organizers put forth the effort to make it possible for riders to be entirely responsible for their own ride, it is a good thing, not a bad thing.

OTOH, some riders prefer not to be responsible for their own rides. They prefer to follow and when things go wrong on a ride, they see it as the fault of others. For an organizer who voluntarily creates a route, a route sheet and leads a group of riders, this is a strong disincentive to organize rides. In over a decade of experience running a motorcycling forum and in more than a decade of running rides, this is the number one reason groups have problems organizing rides. There are allot fewer people with the time, inclination, skills to organize a ride and lead a group  than there are people who prefer to follow and blame organizers for problems on rides. Let's see a show of hands from the people who are willing to create a route, route sheet, and spend a day of riding where they are looking at a route sheet, looking for road hazards and looking in their rear view mirror to make sure no one is lost. The people who don't see it as their responsibility to learn to ride their own ride drive away the few who volunteer to organize rides with their complaints or suggestions on other things a ride organizer could do to make a ride better for them. The rhetoric on this forum is oriented to keep the people who prefer not to be responsible for their own rides away, so that organizers feel comfortable volunteering to organize rides.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 "Let's see a show of hands from the people who are willing to create a route, route sheet, and spend a day of riding where they are looking at a route sheet, looking for road hazards and looking in their rear view mirror to make sure no one is lost. "

Every weekend

[pkpk]

Of course a group leader could stop at every fork in a route to make sure that everyone takes the correct fork, but frankly when you're riding off a route sheet or a GPS unit, you typically don't even notice the forks in the road and  there is typically no safe place for a group to stop and wait for other riders.

So just to be sure, as a new rider, I should expect to fend for my self. Might as well ride by my self. For me, group rides gave me a comforting feeling that when I make a mistake, some one will be there to scrape me off the ground.

I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.

Could you provide examples of the other forums that "provide the comfort" for new riders?  Outside of Gold Wing type groups, I am not sure I know of any other forum than MSTA that tries to make newer riders fit in.  I've observed some Gold Wing group rides that are so stifling to individual riding habits, they are counter productive when it comes to continued improvement with your own riding skills.

I think the best thing for you to do is to pair up with a buddy rider who already is familiar with the MSTA and route reading.  This would have to be someone who would pay particular attention to you at turns, etc and not be particularly focused on sticking with the faster groups pace.  I've done this on a few occasions because I tend to hang in the back and ride my own pace and sometimes I will come across a lost rider or someone who is struggling to keep up with an unfamiliar rider.  Unfortunately I don't have much time for riding this year and only made one ride this year.  I don't think you are retarded and I don't think you want to be babied but I do think you could use a buddy rider for a few rides until you start getting used to how the group interacts and reading route sheets.

[Vander]

I don't mind learning new things. That's why I'm still riding. Learning how to read a route sheet is something that I will strive to learn. But as a new rider, other forums provide the comfort for new riders. Makes me feel less of a retard.

Could you provide examples of the other forums that "provide the comfort" for new riders?  Outside of Gold Wing type groups, I am not sure I know of any other forum than MSTA that tries to make newer riders fit in. 

EZpower has ridden with me on a cross-posted MNSBR/TwistedAddiction ride before.  I am known to be very forgiving to new riders and have even split my groups in accommodation of more careful riders.

[pkpk]

Ah, see..you are a ride buddy then.  It wasn't necessarily the forum that provided the comfort. 

[Mike Duluth]

I just threw my hands in my pockets. When riding down there with this crew I would never want to lead. Also sweeping sucks for me, the whole accordion thing that happens back there drives me nuts, thank god for Joel he seems to take in stride. I'm most comfortable in the middle rear of the pack.
 "Let's see a show of hands from the people who are willing to create a route, route sheet, and spend a day of riding where they are looking at a route sheet, looking for road hazards and looking in their rear view mirror to make sure no one is lost. "
Don't know what just happened here.
Every weekend

[Vander]

It wasn't necessarily the forum that provided the comfort.

I am on the staff of MNSBR and the ride was posted on MNSBR... perhaps that's what he meant.
But you are right that MNSBR doesn't have a mission statement or safety messages or anything like that... it's more of a "choose your own adventure" type of format.   

[Joel S]

I have been on many rides where experienced riders went down, including inexperienced me, and were glad others were there to help them, ..............

well, i can only speak for myself, if i was on rides where shit tons of people kept going down, i would be finding different people to ride with.    The group can be a safety thing if something happens to someone, mechanical breakdowns or crashes, or getting lost. 

hope that makes sense. i would rather solo and have fun then ride with people with higher probabilities of crashing. not that things don't happen, they do. It seems that "some groups" have it happen MUCH more than other groups.

as far as sweeping, i can get thrown off a bit by throttle junkies hammering it out of every corner. hard to get my rhythm if that makes sense, i like being back there, i can relax, push, or a combination at any time. my mirrors are HUGE so makes spotting very easy, and if all else fails, my 1400 handles good down the straights too    when it gets harder or more frustrating is the yoyo with BIG straightaway speed rides , i don't care to hammer the throttle all day.

Joel 

[pkpk]

..... i don't care to hammer the throttle all day.

Joel 

Not to mention, throttling will be expensive and eventually it will add up to some serious dough.  (Just passed my third anniversary of my last performance award!)

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Ray said....."Let's see a show of hands from the people who are willing to create a route, route sheet, and spend a day of riding where they are looking at a route sheet, looking for road hazards and looking in their rear view mirror to make sure no one is lost. "

Lloyd answered.....Every weekend (with an awesome smiley of hand raising)

Mike says....Don't know what just happened here.

I just threw my hands in my pockets. When riding down there with this crew I would never want to lead. Also sweeping sucks for me, the whole accordion thing that happens back there drives me nuts, thank god for Joel he seems to take in stride. I'm most comfortable in the middle rear of the pack.

That was a terrible quote....it totally did not read as it was intended

[allonm]

EZPower,
You are bringing up a very good point. As a beginner, if you rely only on a route sheet, and you put yourself with an experienced riders group, you will end up riding by yourself most of the time, which defeats the purpose of group ride.   If you try to follow more experienced group than your own level and the group doesn’t wait for you in the turns, you are risking losing control and potentially getting hurt.
I recommend seeking a group that you are comfortable riding with. 

Allon
 

It was interesting to read the opinions of more experienced riders. I thought it would be nice to include the thoughts of a more inexperienced rider like me. I am late to the sport. I only began riding two years ago. For the last two years I've been riding with members from other forums and fortunately most of the rides were organized with the same theme. Group ride. No man left behind. Every one was made aware that faster riders who knew the route and were better skilled were generally ahead, but at major intersections everyone would wait for the noobs like me. This provided a few key points for me in learning to ride. One: it gave me the opportunity to concentrate on the road and not a piece of paper taped to my tank, which would create a distraction for me, and keep my eyes off the road. Two: I have been on many rides where experienced riders went down, including inexperienced me, and were glad others were there to help them, and not following a piece of paper to the next meeting spot.

I am still learning and very grateful to riders who are willing to wait for others.

Some of the postings of group rides on other forums will say "experienced riders only". Which is perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with letting everyone know what the intention of the pace is going to be.

[EZpower]

It shouldn't be that complicated. When I was leading a ride last year, I posted it as smell the roses ride. When experienced riders on other forums want to ride without new riders they post it as such. On at least one occasion, when I saw who I was riding with, I let the organizer of the ride know my skill level and gave them the option of having me ride by myself. Some times they say no problem we will wait. Once in the while they will let me know to sit this one out. Which is perfectly fine by me. I want them to enjoy the ride on their level.

[Ray916MN]

It shouldn't be that complicated. When I was leading a ride last year, I posted it as smell the roses ride. When experienced riders on other forums want to ride without new riders they post it as such. On at least one occasion, when I saw who I was riding with, I let the organizer of the ride know my skill level and gave them the option of having me ride by myself. Some times they say no problem we will wait. Once in the while they will let me know to sit this one out. Which is perfectly fine by me. I want them to enjoy the ride on their level.

It isn't complicated at all. The ride organizer doesn't declare a pace, they just hand out route sheets and everyone rides at whatever pace they want with whomever they want to ride with. Don't need to ask the ride organizer if your pace is acceptable or not. If you want to make sure you have people to ride with, you just look at who is going on a ride and if people who are going ride at the same pace you typically like to ride at you're good to go. Alternately you can get people who ride at the same pace you ride at to go on the ride and just ride with them.

[Aprilian]

It isn't complicated at all. The ride organizer doesn't declare a pace, they just hand out route sheets and everyone rides at whatever pace they want with whomever they want to ride with. Don't need to ask the ride organizer if your pace is acceptable or not. If you want to make sure you have people to ride with, you just look at who is going on a ride and if people who are going ride at the same pace you typically like to ride at you're good to go. Alternately you can get people who ride at the same pace you ride at to go on the ride and just ride with them.

Ray, the problems I see are
1) that works until the ride distance is not achievable at the slower rider's pace
2) if it is a ride where everyone waits for the full group to reassemble (lunch, gas, major waypoints, etc), the slower paced riders get very tired because they don't get a chance to rest like everyone else.   That increases the risk of a mistake due to rider fatigue
3) the slower paced riders respond to 1 and 2 by riding above thier head trying to cover the distance and get a time to rest and socialize

The first times I rode with HSTA (years ago) that was my personal experience.   Rides I joined last year felt very similar.