Ride your own ride

[Greg]

Ian,
   As I'm one of a very small handful of people who have arguable put on the most open-forum rides in the last 10 years *, I've grown weary of constant criticism from those that seam to rarely if ever conduct open-forum rides.
   Perhaps you could give us your insight as to what would make open-forum group rides more enjoyable from your perspective. I believe you probably have great organizational skills as you are involved in teaching motorcycling classes (albeit absolute novice, right?) and I'm sure some of those skills could be applied in this instance. Please lay out, step by step, they ways you feel a ride should be conducted.

Sincerely,
Greg not Steve


*not boasting, believe me. just a fact

[Vander]

These styles of group riding all have their suitable application, don't they?
What are the goals of a group ride?
•   Maximize enjoyment for the majority of the participants (including the leader)
•   Get everybody home safe with no damage (bike/self or other citizens/property)
•   No tickets or arrests

And the obstacles to those objectives?
•   Blended experience levels of riders
•   Differing opinions amongst riders on enjoyable routes, proper motorcycle maintenance, and safe riding and proper gear
•   Inclement weather
•   Personal integrity, health and civility of all participants
•   Other distractions

Route sheets take the “herding” burdens from the leader during the ride and places a navigational burden on the followers; requiring more experienced/ prepared riders, yes?

An FTL (follow-the-leader) ride places more herding burdens on the leader, alleviates the navigational burdens on the followers, but the resulting cluster effect can cause safety (following distance) problems, yes?

So what’s the answer?
We should all sell our bikes and take the train.

[Mike Duluth]

I think you need to ride with a group of people to find where YOUR pecking order is. You won't find this the first time you ride with a group. There are a lot of great riders in this group and some bad, but a shit load of us inbetween. In my opinion it's best to stay out of the pack till you know where you belong. Some times the hardest part of finding that place is to face the fact that you are not the best rider in your crew, or even close to it. Just enjoy your own ride, and leave the fast shit to the better riders and learn what you can from them.

[Tim...]

Sanctioned MNSTA ride - ice cream and how to read a route sheet without putting yourself and others in danger ride 101.  I'll be the first to sign up (next year).   Yep, I can lead the "fast" group but it sure as hell is not from a route sheet. 

So let me post a scenario/question for the "ride your own ride" proponents on group rides, as I personally think the two concepts are orthogonal:

My close-knit riding buddies and I decide to go out on a route that we have ridden many times before and have committed to memory.  We invite you along and provide you with a route sheet and tell you to "ride your own ride".  You cannot keep up, quickly fall behind and are now reliant on a route sheet to follow along the route all alone.

Does this fall into group riding - if it was me, certainly not.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Sanctioned MNSTA ride - ice cream and how to read a route sheet without putting yourself and others in danger ride 101.  I'll be the first to sign up (next year).   Yep, I can lead the "fast" group but it sure as hell is not from a route sheet. 

So let me post a scenario/question for the "ride your own ride" proponents on group rides, as I personally think the two concepts are orthogonal:

My close-knit riding buddies and I decide to go out on a route that we have ridden many times before and have committed to memory.  We invite you along and provide you with a route sheet and tell you to "ride your own ride".  You cannot keep up, quickly fall behind and are now reliant on a route sheet to follow along the route all alone.

Does this fall into group riding - if it was me, certainly not.

So what is "fast"

The riders who go out to sweeper land and run triple digits?
The riders who run triple digits down the straights and panic in every turn, so they crawl through them at a snails pace?
The riders who run double plus 20 on nothing roads (probably those sweeper guys)
The riders who find the tightest most technically challenging roads and run them at double or perhaps even double plus 10/20....

"Fast" is so subject to opinion....

FYI--your scenario would never happen from any of the ride leaders who routinely lead MNMSTA rides.

And yes I am a "ride your own ride" supporter. I lead lots of rides with no route sheet for anyone but me( or I lead from memory or make it up as I go or...)- and then I expect to keep the group together at road changes etc, but not in the turns so much. I fully expect everyone in the group to ride well within their limits and be "safe".....of course most leaders (myself anyways) ride down to the slowest person in the group, or atleast slower so they aren't playing too much "catch up"...But when I host a ride with everyone having a route sheet, or expected that they have a route sheet-I expect I can simply go and not look back...you keep up, great-you don't, well you have a route sheet.........does this actually happen-not too often....But it should work that way if everyone actually rode thier own ride.

So what is "fast"?

[Tim...]

Being "fast" is very relative, this is my point.  Although my scenario is extreme, hopefully it points out the many flaws in "ride your own ride" for group rides.

[Aprilian]

Ian,
   As I'm one of a very small handful of people who have arguable put on the most open-forum rides in the last 10 years *, I've grown weary of constant criticism from those that seam to rarely if ever conduct open-forum rides.
   Perhaps you could give us your insight as to what would make open-forum group rides more enjoyable from your perspective. I believe you probably have great organizational skills as you are involved in teaching motorcycling classes (albeit absolute novice, right?) and I'm sure some of those skills could be applied in this instance. Please lay out, step by step, they ways you feel a ride should be conducted.

Sincerely,
Greg not Steve

*not boasting, believe me. just a fact

Greg,

I could defend my choice to volunteer my time to teach entry level track riders, but obviously there was a dig at my skill level intended by your using "absolute novice" which doesn't deserve anything more than to point out that I taught my first class in 1980. 

When I first joined HSTA, I had more time available and did lead one ride.  I also successfully created and ran a charity ride for 30 riders for 7 years where I created the route sheet, lead the ride and handled many of the logistics including route sheets.

Having laid out my credentials as you asked...   All I was saying in that last post was that there is a flaw in how many route sheet based rides place higher stress levels on the newer riders who sometimes get overloaded.  My charity rides always have two routes, one longer than the other so that we arrive at luch together with no one feeling they had to ride over their head.  Our leaders and sweeps always pre-ride the route the week before and we keep the groups small and managable.  We also have a trailer available for mechanicals.   While the trailer is not practical for forum rides, the other suggestions can be useful for setting up an introductory (or slower rider friendly) ride for MSTA participants.

[Vander]

My charity rides always have two routes, one longer than the other so that we arrive at luch together with no one feeling they had to ride over their head. 

We implemented  something similar on my Lake Superior ride... worked perfectly.  We all rolled in to the motels within minutes of each other.

[tk]

So let me post a scenario/question for the "ride your own ride" proponents on group rides, as I personally think the two concepts are orthogonal:

My close-knit riding buddies and I decide to go out on a route that we have ridden many times before and have committed to memory.  We invite you along and provide you with a route sheet and tell you to "ride your own ride".  You cannot keep up, quickly fall behind and are now reliant on a route sheet to follow along the route all alone.

Does this fall into group riding - if it was me, certainly not.

This scenario certainly comes up now and then. It is unfortunate for the rider whose riding style is much less aggressive. They find themselves doing a solo ride. I find that  when the attendance at a ride reaches about a dozen or more riders the problem often  goes away because in a group this large there are usually a few people who prefer a slower pace. They usually form their own subgroup. I have even seen instances where one or two experienced riders have sacrificed their own ride in order to guide a less aggressive rider along the route. 

[pkpk]

Greg, I would argue that Ian's role to teach newbies their first experience on the track is more challenging than advanced training.  I was one of his students at my first (and only) DCTC last year and he had no shortage of skill levels he was trying to deal with in one group.  It amounted to herding cats and it was not something I could (or would want to) do.

[Greg]

 I stand by my post.I want to hear solutions to what some feel are the problems with the way organized rides are conducted.
I see a trend in these forums. A trend that is prevelant in business as well as in civic and social organizations. A whole lot of whining and not a lot of problem solving.
Walk the walk. Show me, with actions, a better way.

[Tim...]

^ where should I, I, I, me start?  This is a discussion, different opinions, nobody needs to show  you anything!

[Jared]

Surprised this topic is still going.  There's no one answer to any of these questions.  A lot depends on who the specific leader is, the composition of the group and what if any newer riders are present.

To those looking for a codified policy about how group rides are or should be run, you will never be satisfied with anything posted here for the reason above.  It's important to remember that we do this for fun.  I don't swing a leg over my bike every weekend so I can follow the MSTA's 813 rules to group riding.  That said, a couple of things I see as TRENDS (not rules) on MSTA rides:

--Slowing in the straights to allow slower riders to rejoin the rest of the group.  There is no local stretch of roads where this is not an option.
--Pausing at route changes for the group to reform.  If you are not blasting the straights, this never takes more than a minute or two, regardless of the spread in skill levels.
--Posting the route ahead of time or handing out route sheets in the AM.
--In large or mixed experience groups, having a pre-ride discussion about what the day will be like.  So often, riders trying to "keep up" and binning it or having a shitty day comes from them being worried about being left behind and never seeing the group again.  Talking about how the ride will be run can help with this.
--Splitting large groups into smaller ones, in my experience this greatly reduces the slinky effect.

To those saying that a rider who has to navigate a route sheet solo isn't going to have any fun because they are no longer part of the "group", lots of the fun on these rides comes from hanging out at gas and lunch stops.  The folks that frequent these rides are in general class acts and a good time.

Last, not speaking for Ray, Tony or MN-MSTA, if you show up to a couple of rides and they are not what you want, vote with your feet.  There are an infinite number of types of groups to ride with, from riding with a buddy to the 500 + bike thing that takes place once a year, from smell the roses to double plus all day every day.  Groups can't be everything for everybody, sometimes the best call might be to find a different group that suits YOUR preferences more.

[tk]

I don't like to use the term "fast" to describe the pace of a ride. It is too subjective. I prefer the term aggressive.

As an example I last rolled thru turn one at Brainerd (in the rain) at an indicated 125. With the wide track, good sight line, and banking I felt like I was not riding aggressively.  Yet there have been times in WI and AR where I have charged into a blind corner at just 40-45 indicated and I was stressed and using my entire lane to make a corner marked for 20 mph. So at Brainerd I was going faster but I was much more aggressive in WI and AR.

Just my .02.

[Greg]

As we wait for the proposed new ideas on ways to coordinate open forum rides, I'd like to throw these facts into the mix and ask the folks with new ideas to keep these things in mind.

I was on the Westby 3 day ride in northern Wisconsin last weekend. There were about 25 riders in attendance. Many old-school HSTA members, as well as current and new riders.
These were the riders in attendance:

Riders on touring, sport-touring, naked standards, sport-bikes, dual-sports and off-road bikes.
Riders who prefer gas stops every 50, 75, or 100 miles
Riders who prefer gas stops in duration of 10, 15, 30 minutes.
Riders who prefer lunch stops for 15, 30 or 60 minutes.
Riders who ride posted speeds, 5mph over, 15mph over, 20mph+ over.
Riders who crack the throttle exiting a turn.
Riders who crack the throttle entering a turn.
Riders 1 up, 2 up.
Riders who lean towards group cycling as a social event.
Riders who view group cycling as a test of skill and endurance.
Route sheets and a "ride your own ride" philosophy was adhered to, with nary a grumble.

And everyone  of these riders has a comfort zone that they (if smart) will not exceed if given the choice. And keep in mind, I believe all of these different "comfort zones" are valid for said riders and no styles are better or worse than the other.
So please keep the myriad of riders and riding styles in mind when drafting these new ideas.


Cheers,
Greg