An Offer and a Challenge For Those Who Want Feedback on Their Riding

[Ray916MN]

On the next MN-MSTA ride, I will critique and provide feedback for up to 4 riders.

From this thread http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1031.0.html , Lloyd wrote.

For me the compensation is simple. people more equipped with more knowledge of leading a ride, the roads, the routes and what is expected of them. With the side benefit of steering away some who clearly have no clue so as I will not have to deal with their shit later. With the hope and expectation that with that knowledge they will fit the group better and participate more.

I couldn't agree with this more.

Sounds too good to be true, right?

The caveat is this. Everyone who wants to be critiqued must agree to take equal turns at leading the group. I will only offer critiques for people who are willing to take equal turns leading the group.

I hear, it now, many who are interested are thinking that's stupid, if I was a good enough rider to lead I wouldn't be interested in having my riding critiqued. This reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of what it means to ride your own ride.

From the thread on Ride Your Own Ride http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1038.0.html

Tony's response was:

My definition of "ride your own ride" is that in a group setting you should ride as you normally would if you were riding the same route alone. For me this means I don't let the group determine my speed or when to pass cars or what line to take thru corners or whether to stop or not. If I have a routesheet and I know where the group is going there is no need for me to stay with the group.

As much as technical riding skills are critical to riding your own ride, learning to ride better when you are effectively riding alone, as you are, when you are leading a group is the real objective. The weakness of riders trying to learn to ride better by following others is that they primarily learn by imitating. They see the rider ahead of them and try to mimic what the rider ahead of them is doing. How they position their body off the bike, and the line they take through a turn.

Tailgating is one of the means I use to assess following riders. Many riders tailgate to make mimicking the rider ahead of them easier. I know when a rider is tailgating me to mimic me whenever I go through tight switchbacks where a series of rapid directional changes are required to navigate a series of turns. It is very very difficult to figure out and mimic the actions of a rider when they change from full lean in one direction to full lean in the other direction in a very short span of time. Mimicking riders are always able to mimic the first move of the rider ahead makes go into the first turn in a series of switchbacks, but when they are still leaned over turning one way and the bike in front of them snaps to full lean the other way it is much more difficult to mimic this move and so many mimicking riders either fail to make later turns in the series or get significantly gapped by the rider ahead of them in a series of switchbacks. Riders need to lead because it reduces their ability to fake having good riding skills. If you want to improve your skills, the person helping you needs to be able to see how good your skills are, not how good you are at acting like you have good skills.

Which brings me to another reason people who want to be critiqued need to lead. While I might be able to tell something about a following riders skills when leading them, frankly it is generally impossible to see much detail. Trying to see what a following riders is doing in your mirrors is like trying to drive down a road with your windows fogged up. This is especially true when I'm riding my Ducati, GSXR or pretty much any sportbike. The mirrors suck. For me to see what your body position is like, and what your lines look like, I can do a much better job when following.

Another reason people need to lead is that we are all taught that to safely ride on the street riders need to maintain some riding reserve. No one should ride at 100% of their capacity. If you think of riding while self navigating as akin to walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time, you'll understand, that when self navigating and riding a route becomes challenging, it is a signal that the amount of riding reserve you have is getting low. Now let's take the parallel a different way. When a child first learns to walk, it is very very challenging and it would probably be impossible for them to walk and chew gum at the same time. If you can't self navigate off a route sheet and ride at the same time, your riding skill set is somewhat akin to a baby who has just learned to walk.Riding and self navigating off a route sheet is not that difficult. If this is the case, you better pay allot of attention to how much riding reserve you maintain and better develop a habit of keeping track of how much you have in reserve. One of the ways I check to see how much reserve I have when I'm following is to self navigate even though I'm following. When I'm in a group and it becomes difficult for me to self navigate at the pace being run, I know my reserves are low. There are a multitude of other ways to keep track of "riding reserves", but this is in my experience a particularly good way to keep track of my mental riding reserves.

Here's the challenge. Riders who feel comfortable and capable of leading groups are in short supply relative to people who prefer to follow. The folks who all too often lead groups want more people to develop the skills to lead groups and many folks want feedback from the people who are experienced enough to lead groups. The opportunity to get feedback from more experienced riders is to offer to lead groups they are riding in. Make you're own learning opportunity. Ask someone who you would like to get feedback on your riding from on the next group ride you are on whether they would be willing to be in a group you lead. Take the initiative to create your own learning opportunity. I think you'll be surprised at how many folks will be willing to help you if they are approached this way.

Here's a little story for everyone to consider. A couple of years ago a rider well known on all the Minnesota forums, came along on an MN-MSTA ride and rode as part of group I was leading.  At the end of the ride, this rider asked me if I could give him some riding pointers. I said "sure,. I'd be willing to follow you and give you some feedback. Since this ride, request and offer, this rider has never shown up for another MN-MSTA ride that I know of. Since this ride I've seen videos taken by the rider posted on some of the other local forums which give a pretty clear indication of how he rides and he has crashed a couple of times. Based on the videos, there is certainly in my opinion much this rider could learn, and based on this post, I think everyone should get the point just asking for it is just a bunch of lip flapping. If you want help, you need to do more than just ask for it. You need to figure out what you can do to make it happen. Pretty much like anything in life that you want.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

OMG....you publicly agreed with an entire paragraph I wrote....lol

[Tim...]

Someone is impersonating an arrogant version of someone I used to enjoy riding with.

[Aprilian]

Way to go Ray!  Excellent offer.   

One thought is that the usual MN-MNSTA rides are high mileage which leaves precious little time to give feedback or for the new leaders to lead at a slightly slower pace as they balance navigating with riding.

If the ride is shorter and before my classes kick in, I'd be happy to do similarly. 

If multiple people are offereing feedback it can sometimes get confusing to the feedback recipients (we all have different ways of identifying what to work on and how to describe the issue).  If you have multiple people offering feedback you may want them each to work with the same 4 riders and not rotate the person offering feedback.

[Plus_P]

I don't know if your intended audience was to complete noobs to ST, but I'll be the first schmuck to say, Yes, I want feedback...someday...soon hopefully. The sooner I can break any bad habits that may be glaringly obvious to someone else, the better. I'm really disappointed that the Hedonistic (?) day isn't happening this year. It sounded like a beneficial way to learn/practice some more advanced riding mechanics and get feedback. I also intend to do ZARS days, when schedule allows, but for the most part, I'm at those as a crew chief, for test/tune, not as a rider, but I digress...
My first priority though is to prep for and survive Lloyds Boot Camp and intro to reading route sheets. I feel like I should be out figuring out that goofy strap system for my tank bag (Aprilia plastic tank...you steel tank guys/gals got it sooo easy ), instead of forum surfing...but...maybe tomorrow eve I'll lift the tank, rain in the forecast tomorrow, hope they're right .
I really like your analogy for "Riding Reserve" and it will be a thought that sticks with me, as an internal alarm. I can already feel riding and navigating becoming overwhelming easily when in unfamiliar territory...two eyes on the road, one on the route sheet, wait, which line was I on? One on the odometer, move the elbow so one can be on the mirror...what did that street sign say?...
So, one of these days, I won't hesitate to ask. I won't even wait until I'm "comfortable", but at least I need to graduate from route sheet elementary school. Thanks for the offer(s), as I know there are quite a few here that will gladly do this, if Ray depletes his stock of (4) slots!
+Wade

[Ray916MN]

Yeah, I'll probably shorten the routes for these to make sure there is enough time for feedback and lead rotation and still enough time to meet the group at the gas stops and lunch.

I'll also need to work a bit on creating some pre-reading for folks so people have a better idea of what to expect and what I'll be looking for them to do. I think the pre-reading will help everyone get an idea of some of the things to look for in their own riding and the riding of others which will help them get a feel of how to read how other riders are riding. The Pace is a given.

To put the offer in context for those who have never ridden with me. I lead 99% of the time I'm on group rides. The primary reason why  I end up leading 99% of the time on the rides I'm on is there are not enough other people willing to lead on rides. I would offer to give anybody feedback if it turns out they are riding with me in a group which I'm not leading, but until we get more ride leaders, the only times I'm going to be able to formally do this is when I know that there will be enough other ride leaders, that I will not have to lead a group. The opening event of the MN-MSTA riding season, the Rivers Ride is typically a ride with plenty of people capable and willing to lead and is not a very technical or challenging route.

The intended audience is anyone and everyone who would be interested. In general I'll try take everyone on a first come first serve basis, but if the spread in the riding skill set is too wide between the people who are interested, I'll work everyone to try to get the group as close as possible in skill. Too wide a skill set disparity will probably create problems or make this less fun and interesting for people.

[carlson_mn]

Just let me know the time and place Ray.  I would love a critique.   Hell Ray if you want I can videotape you too if you want to see yourself on film, just keep it at a level that I can stay within your mirrors. 

Myself, I often prefer to lead, but not always.  I also enjoy following but I find myself to be a better rider if I lead for several reasons.

[RCKT GRL]

I'm hopeful that alot of forum members will take you up on this offer!  I would love to participate as well.  I'm a firm believer that you can never have too much knowledge.  Pencil me in sometime. 

PS.  I'm really liking the new dialogue that seems to be coming into the group.  Keeping a positive, open mind to riding better and smarter will only benefit all of us. 

[Aprilian]

PS.  I'm really liking the new dialogue that seems to be coming into the group.  Keeping a positive, open mind to riding better and smarter will only benefit all of us. 

+1000, I really appreciate the hard work and thought people are putting into building a community with a common interest.