Riding Safely

[tk]

I am here; heavy with disappointment.

I am wrong.  I thought that this site was different from the others.  It is not.  It is the same dynamic as the others... posturing, ridicule, and blind "cult-like" loyalty to the organization.
I will continue just to read and will no longer participate as I do with other message boards.
And that is fine.  But maybe you will not be so harsh with your judgments of the other sites knowing that you all are susceptible to the same collapse of social graces as the others.You have all participated and have behaved just as poorly as the other forums.  And again, that is okay... I just hope you all learn something from this.  Even old men can change and perhaps at that time I can re-engage in civil dialogue.

Enjoy yourselves and be safe. 

I have not been harsh with my judgments of other sites. I post  on TA and ZG, attend their rides,
and generally support their existence.  MNSBR is more focused on track riding so I don't go there.
Just because you see some negative comments about those forums don't lump me in with those
who make those comments. I just prefer the style of rides you see posted here (long, twisty rides
deep into WI).

[Tim...]

Point taken, nicely done!

  I'm more critical than you are! My gutted emgo megs are louder,my off the rack colors are gnarlier,my fringe is longer,my opinions are better-THAN YOURS! I am as bad or worse than most of you in being one to notice others faults but at least I know it.  Let's get back to enjoying the back roads with others of similar tastes.  After all the weather barriers I still plan to get to "The Hills" monday. If anyone else shows up great-even if they're a 'Hoglie Rider' I'll try to show them a good time.  These 8 pages of banter may offend or at least scare away some folks. Let's try to keep this stuff on the back burner 'til winter when we need things to argue about unless like me you're trying to get out on your x-country skis!GJ

[pkpk]

I have not been harsh with my judgments of other sites.

IMO, I didn't see any particular harsh attitude toward any particular board on MN-MSTA.  Certainly not like the vitrolic postings about ZG on other forums.  But I don't claim to read every posting so maybe I missed something.

I made one comment about watching a train of 25 bikes pull away from me on my one and only MNSBR ride.  It was a factual observation, nothing more...no pontificating, no particular point....nothing.  But I know, at least, one person who seemed to take offense and I wonder if this wasn't what motivated Yul.  The irony is, they could post about all the old, MN-MSTA farts riding slow on their rides over there and I would have agreed with them.  Sometimes I wonder if humans lost their ability to ignore what mildly offends them. 

[aschendel]

I had a "riding safely" thought today on the way to work.  I was riding up the highway (61N in Newport) following a stranger on a Gold Wing.  Seeing as we didn't know each other at all, I was being extra respectful of my following distance, making sure to leave "plenty" of room.  It was rush hour, 6:45am or so, and we were going about 70mph.  As we rolled past a semi-truck with a big "53'" label on the side, it hit me that I was only leaving at most 50' between this stranger and I, nowhere near the "3 seconds".

Anyways, I sometimes count off the seconds in my head, but it doesn't really affect me if I only get halfway through "one mississippi".  Today I realized that if 3 semi's couldn't easily merge between me and the vehicle in front of me, I'm probably not leaving myself enough room to stop.  I don't know if I'll every be able to really leave the official space, it just seems like such a huge distance, but I know that from now on I'll be thinking "Can a semi fit?".

a.s.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 Anything you may construe as a harsch judgement by me, is simply calling it like I see it....I can spit out my view of harsch reality to all the forums, including all those I frequent and I make no apologies about it.

Here would be another following distance fun fact;

Just because the "lead bike" passes, does not mean to take your cue from that bike and follow blindly. Sometimes the lead bike is passing and figures the followers are smart enough to stay put and let the "lead bike" pass before everyone jumps out into the left lane following........ Everyone jumping out blind....This can lead to suddenly there is not enough room for all the bikes to get back into the right lane, or the lead bike may have to pass many more vehicles than they planned on or have room for, just so that the "followers" can merge back into the right lane. You should be riding and always making your own decisions-never should you be "following" or taking your cue off the bike in front of you and then blindly following.

Anyways following distance is always very important to everyones safety. (@ 70 mph it should be over 200')

[pkpk]

Following distance goes out the window at rush hour though.  There is no way you will be able to keep a 200' cushion unless you are slowing down, leading drivers behind you to tailgate and zip around you to fill the gap.  I found all one can really do is keep your wits and ride staggered and make sure you are ready to take evasive action.  I quit riding rush hour because it's just too dangerous on a bike IMO.

[Elk]

It is easy for a car to follow  a bike too closely because it is easy to see around us.  I bet many that tailgate a bike  are not really seeing it and are actually following the car ahead. 

Lloyd's passing comment is accurate.  I have seen many situations (not this group) where the lead bike is a bit aggressive and the followers really get stuck in a bad situation. 

[Aprilian]

Lloyd's passing comment is accurate.  I have seen many situations (not this group) where the lead bike is a bit aggressive and the followers really get stuck in a bad situation. 

I think they choose to make a situation bad by choosing to pass in a bad location with limited visibility.   Fear of loosing contact with the lead rider outweighs their good passing judgement.  To paraphrase Ray's comments, "You have a route sheet, Ride your own ride".   I bowed out of one ride where there were 4 riders passing blind on a double yellow just because the lead rider made a poor choice to pass.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 My comment is more directed at the followers, not at the lead bike being "aggressive" with their passing. Regardless how passive or aggressive the lead bike decides to get by traffic, the following bikes need to allow room for that bike and themselves (should they decide to follow through at the same time). All too often far too many of the "followers" just jump on the band wagon and blindly follow around traffic putting their safety and the safety of others at risk-including that lead bike. One thing one must consider, that lead bike can pass (solo) at will, nearly anywhere, nearly anytime-- a group of bikes cannot do this (this does not mean I advocate or support seeing a 20' hole 3 cars up and making that pass to leap frog past traffic, but lets say you are behind 10 cars, spread out, traveling at 55 in a 55 and you want to run 65, and there are openings of say 50' (I doubt you would see bigger as people are stupid about following too close) I could see the lead bike jumping past 1 or 2 vehicles at a time until they leapfrogged past all the vehicles--the problem would lie with multiple bikes trying to follow and fill those same tiny 50' openings.......first off a 50' opening isn't enough for safety period-once you decide to pass and jump into that hole, now it is only about 22' between you and both the vehicle in front of you and behind you---
Does anyone actually think this is safe or that they could stop if the vehicle in front of you slammed on the brakes?
Do you think that vehicle behind you could stop before running you over?

Anyways-there is also the case where, the lead bike is going for that 50' opening in their efforts to leap frog past that line, and suddenly in the mirror there are 3 or 4 bikes coming with them (all blindly following into that tiny 50' opening) I can tell you right now someone isn't going to make it in there......You have acceleration and decelleration factors, multiple bikes don't pass as one unit, then you have 6' long by 2 1/2' wide vehicles jockying to "squeeze" together--this scenario can push the lead bike to suddenly have to change plans of going into that tiny opening they planned for and now make a run to try to get past the entire line or at a minimum up to the next 50' opening (considering now they are likely in WOT pass mode, that is going to be a tough pass to run nearly triple digits and slow back now into that 50' hole up ahead)---yes this would be aggressive passing, but what I often see.

 So just consider allowing the leader to pass on their own and you pass on your own, unless it is actually clear where multiple bikes can pass.
RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE, but be cognisant of other riders and how what you do affects their safety and decisions.

 I am talking group riding scenario, not necessarily rush hour traffic or riding with some "stranger".--Rush hour scenarios have their own rules and while I have and will ride in them (unwillingly and certainly not for fun), I certainly am aware the risks to my health are greatly increased during this time. I will give hang gestures and even brake light a car following me too closely, drift back increasing my following distance too......If someone is stupid enough to try to fill a 100' gap I leave, I have no problem pacing them until the hole is closed forcing them into  having to brake and fall back behind-that always gets their attention- couple that with my explecitives and I usually have them following with a little extra distance. Just don't blindly assume they will brake, many times they will just push over anyways forcing you to move out of their way of be hit......( a fist through the window or boot to the door doesn't prevent this) Then you are best off to fall way behind as clearly they could care less about your safety

[Greg]

A thought completely unrelated to any previous post ....

I think the premise of the thread is misguided. One can never "ride safely". 

As even the most safety conscious rider will acknowledge, the best we can do is manage the risk. 

[Elk]

My comment is more directed at the followers, not at the lead bike being "aggressive" with their passing.

Understood and I agree.  However there is little risk if the leader makes an easy slow pass, unlimited visibility and a mile of traffic free passing lane. 

I am not positing that the leader is responsible for the safety of the passes of others.   Absolute not.  On the other hand, leading stupid increases risk for others.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

"I am not posting that the leader is responsible for the safety of the passes of others.   Absolute not.  On the other hand, leading stupid increases risk for others."

 Following stupid increases the risks for others. Just being stupid increases the risks for everyone, leader or follower.


"Understood and I agree.  However there is little risk if the leader makes an easy slow pass, unlimited visibility and a mile of traffic free passing lane."

It is still the responsibility of everyone (the "followers"and "leaders" alike) to access the risks and manage them appropriately for themselves.....erroring on the side of extra caution when a group is involved---

My point is still far too many "followers" just follow blindly putting themselves and the leader and everyone around in danger....Don't confuse difference

 Yes what the leader does can affect the group-but you as an individual rider can chose to not follow their lead...pretty hard for them being out front to screw up a pass you are going to make?? (UNless the follower is just a follower and has no brain to think with on their own. NO??) However it is pretty easy for a follower to screw up a pass the leader is making.
You can't force 6 oranges into a teaspoon....Ride your own ride but do it smarter than you may do when solo.

[supraman]

[SNIP]
... Just being stupid increases the risks for everyone, leader or follower.

This is a great quote. 

[aschendel]

Understood and I agree.  However there is little risk if the leader makes an easy slow pass, unlimited visibility and a mile of traffic free passing lane. 

Ah, we don't generally take that road



a.s.

p.s. *really* good to see you back posting!

[Elk]

[SNIP]
... Just being stupid increases the risks for everyone, leader or follower.

This is a great quote. 

+1

I also like:

My point is still far too many "followers" just follow blindly putting themselves and the leader and everyone around in danger.

It appears to me we are all saying the same thing, in different ways.