My Crash, limited time viewing now

[Greg]

You should definately consider some further rider training.  To me it doesn't matter how long you've been riding or how many miles each season.  If all that time and miles were spent without the purpose of improving your skills (and I don't just mean "going faster") then they are worthless.  There are plenty of riders out there who've been riding for 30 years and have tens of thousands of miles, and they still suck at riding.  You don't get better just because you are out riding.

This crash should have never happened, I can't find a single reason you crashed other than lack of skills and judgement.  I wished we had footage from behind you to further examine what happened.  Video distorts things sometimes but your speed seemed low for this corner and to me it seemed like there was plenty of room to manage your speed/following distance/ and still make the corner.

This all sounds pretty harsh I'm sure but my intent is just to help you focus on the problem and avoid this from happening in the future.  Seeing these types of accidents is frustrating because they are so easily avoidable.  Honestly, if you couldn't negotiate this situation what will you do when a deer jumps out, or a car pulls out in front of you.  I don't see anything wrong with what the rider in front of you was doing, he was riding his own ride!

I'm glad you have healed and this wasn't worse.  Hope you get back to riding and become a better rider as a result of this experience.

agreed. IMO 100% operator error.

Sorry, but you posted this and asked for opinions. 

[Ultra_Magnus]

You should definately consider some further rider training.  To me it doesn't matter how long you've been riding or how many miles each season.  If all that time and miles were spent without the purpose of improving your skills (and I don't just mean "going faster") then they are worthless.  There are plenty of riders out there who've been riding for 30 years and have tens of thousands of miles, and they still suck at riding.  You don't get better just because you are out riding.

This crash should have never happened, I can't find a single reason you crashed other than lack of skills and judgement.  I wished we had footage from behind you to further examine what happened.  Video distorts things sometimes but your speed seemed low for this corner and to me it seemed like there was plenty of room to manage your speed/following distance/ and still make the corner.

This all sounds pretty harsh I'm sure but my intent is just to help you focus on the problem and avoid this from happening in the future.  Seeing these types of accidents is frustrating because they are so easily avoidable.  Honestly, if you couldn't negotiate this situation what will you do when a deer jumps out, or a car pulls out in front of you.  I don't see anything wrong with what the rider in front of you was doing, he was riding his own ride!

I'm glad you have healed and this wasn't worse.  Hope you get back to riding and become a better rider as a result of this experience.

agreed. IMO 100% operator error.

Sorry, but you posted this and asked for opinions. 

Well there was definately rider error. But if it wasnt for the debris (as u can see in video) i still belive i would have made it through the turn without issue. The smashed cup is what took my tire out.

I hope my posts dont sound like im trying to make excuses for what happened, but i was on the bike and remember everything crystal clear. I appreciate all the input in this thread so far.

But yea i defintely will be adjusting my riding style to allow for alot more room for error (following distance especially).

[vince]

It's to bad we all can't just have a close call and learn form our mistakes.

[Aprilian]

I'm happy to hear you are healing well.   I hope you are ready in spring time for a full year of riding.

I have a few more thoughts...

1) a mcdonalds cup would never take away enough traction to cause a crash - unless you were on the brakes and the cup got caught under the stopped tire and you slid on the cup - which is highly unlikely.  The speed of your spinning wheel would have tossed it aside in a split second.   Really no different than a tar snake's momentary interruption.   If you were at the edge of you ability or traction (both within your control) then that momentary skip and catch of traction would have started the accident.   You were NOT a victim of a cup on the street!!!

2) why couldn't you go around the other rider rather than crashing?   His bike was not taking up the whole lane. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X922dbI_QQI

]  I often try to remind myself that the solution is often going around an emergency rather than panicking.

3) have you seen anything on this site about "Ride your own ride"?!   I think your video is a unfortunate example of what happens if you don't do that.

I really admire your braveness for posting this up to get feedback.   Even in a true accident (all items out of your control), many people will still point out things you could have done differently.

Have you set some new rules for yourself based on what you learned in this crash?

[Chris]

Well there was definately rider error. But if it wasnt for the debris (as u can see in video) i still belive i would have made it through the turn without issue. The smashed cup is what took my tire out.

I hope my posts dont sound like im trying to make excuses for what happened, but i was on the bike and remember everything crystal clear. I appreciate all the input in this thread so far.

But yea i defintely will be adjusting my riding style to allow for alot more room for error (following distance especially).

My though is if the cup did not take you down the white line would have.

 It's nice for you in two ways 1st you're alive and on the mend 2nd you have camera footage of the event, thus helping you to replay it in your head (to some extent anyway).

[Chris]

I'm happy to hear you are healing well.   I hope you are ready in spring time for a full year of riding.

I have a few more thoughts...

1) a mcdonalds cup would never take away enough traction to cause a crash - unless you were on the brakes and the cup got caught under the stopped tire and you slid on the cup - which is highly unlikely.  The speed of your spinning wheel would have tossed it aside in a split second.   Really no different than a tar snake's momentary interruption.   If you were at the edge of you ability or traction (both within your control) then that momentary skip and catch of traction would have started the accident.   You were NOT a victim of a cup on the street!!!

on a lean and slowing down hard which he was doing I hitting anything on the front would cause it wash out. By watching the video you can see the bike go down right as the front tire hits it.

[Ultra_Magnus]

Have you set some new rules for yourself based on what you learned in this crash?

A definate "Hell Yea".

1. Better following distance
2. Get better braking skills
3. Don't ride a bike setup for a 150lb rider that hard

Off the top of my head.

[Aprilian]

A definate "Hell Yea".

1. Better following distance
2. Get better braking skills
3. Don't ride a bike setup for a 150lb rider that hard

Off the top of my head.

Fantastic list!  Write 'em down for a reminder for the first spring ride.  Its amazing what we all forget over the long MN winter.  I put painter tape on my tank with notes for the spring (like "fresh tires").

on a lean and slowing down hard which he was doing I hitting anything on the front would cause it wash out. By watching the video you can see the bike go down right as the front tire hits it.

Unfortunately, the cup wasn't the first precipitiating event, just the final straw in the chain of events.
following too close
braking hard
loosing line
hit cup

[Ultra_Magnus]

A definate "Hell Yea".

1. Better following distance
2. Get better braking skills
3. Don't ride a bike setup for a 150lb rider that hard

Off the top of my head.

Fantastic list!  Write 'em down for a reminder for the first spring ride.  Its amazing what we all forget over the long MN winter.  I put painter tape on my tank with notes for the spring (like "fresh tires").

on a lean and slowing down hard which he was doing I hitting anything on the front would cause it wash out. By watching the video you can see the bike go down right as the front tire hits it.

Unfortunately, the cup wasn't the first precipitiating event, just the final straw in the chain of events.
following too close
braking hard
loosing line
hit cup

Pretty much it in a nutshell

[Jared]

It's to bad we all can't just have a close call and learn form our mistakes.

Word.  I do think that some of the folks above are spot on talking about the ability for us to learn more from these incidents with video,  something that wasn't even an option 5 years ago.

[Chris]

not to keep going over this but I slowed the video down.
Now I don't think you hit the cup at at all, looks like you fixated on the cup.
At the 11:09 mark you have a good line and are not crowding to much and you're not gaining on the other bike.

At the 11:22 mark, the cup comes into view, hard to see in the video but I am sure you saw it.

at the 12:03 mark it looks like the front of bike is over the fog line and to the right of the cup.

at the 12:08 mark the bike differently looks like its between the fog line and the rail

at the 12:12 mark the bars suddenly turn to the left, I don't know if you tried to get off the bike at this point to avoid hitting the guard rail or just simply tried to turn instead of counter steering (a very common thing to do)

at the 12:15 mark the bars are fully turned and the bike is falling

I think you have learned a lot from this, was it avoidable probably. was it the "fault" of the cup I don't think so after slowing it down, I do think you fixated on the cup (as I think most people would do, you know a change in the road)

[zaskar]

You should definately consider some further rider training.  To me it doesn't matter how long you've been riding or how many miles each season.  If all that time and miles were spent without the purpose of improving your skills (and I don't just mean "going faster") then they are worthless.  There are plenty of riders out there who've been riding for 30 years and have tens of thousands of miles, and they still suck at riding.  You don't get better just because you are out riding.

This crash should have never happened, I can't find a single reason you crashed other than lack of skills and judgement.  I wished we had footage from behind you to further examine what happened.  Video distorts things sometimes but your speed seemed low for this corner and to me it seemed like there was plenty of room to manage your speed/following distance/ and still make the corner.

This all sounds pretty harsh I'm sure but my intent is just to help you focus on the problem and avoid this from happening in the future.  Seeing these types of accidents is frustrating because they are so easily avoidable.  Honestly, if you couldn't negotiate this situation what will you do when a deer jumps out, or a car pulls out in front of you.  I don't see anything wrong with what the rider in front of you was doing, he was riding his own ride!

I'm glad you have healed and this wasn't worse.  Hope you get back to riding and become a better rider as a result of this experience.

agreed. IMO 100% operator error.

Sorry, but you posted this and asked for opinions. 

Well there was definately rider error. But if it wasnt for the debris (as u can see in video) i still belive i would have made it through the turn without issue. The smashed cup is what took my tire out.

I hope my posts dont sound like im trying to make excuses for what happened, but i was on the bike and remember everything crystal clear. I appreciate all the input in this thread so far.

But yea i defintely will be adjusting my riding style to allow for alot more room for error (following distance especially).

I'm glad to hear you are making a list to put into action next year. 

Just to keep you thinking.  Above you stated "..But if that cup...", don't blame the cup.  You shouldn't have been riding where that cup was laying in the first place.  Consider other options that would have kept you out of that debri.  That outside part of the lane can be loaded with debris, some not so visible like dirt and sand.  Again just trying to get you thinking in order to help, do you think it is possible that you could have adjusted your speed while still holding your line?  Based on the video I would say yes.  That's something you should think about and practice in a safe enviornment so you can perform when necessary.  That technique is critical and will pay off in many situations.

And secondly, just like the cup, don't blame the bike setup.  I've seen plenty of people ride bikes in ways I thought they were not capable.  Stay focused on rider input like what you have listed as #1 and #2.

Believe me, I'm not immune to mistakes...I've made some and crashed because of it.  The reason I engaged in this thread was because I really feel what's help keep me safe was focusing on what I did in those situations and what I needed to fix.

Good to see you on here with an open mind.  I really hope you heal 100% and enjoy many years of riding in the future!!

[Elk]

It's to bad we all can't just have a close call and learn form our mistakes.

Oh, yes!

Unfortunately the majority of motorcycle crashes are our own fault.  Mine certainly was. 

It's painful watching the video.  I'm very glad to hear you are healing.

[Ray916MN]

Unfamiliar bike (your wife's not yours)
Following too close
Different brakes (regular separate front and rear brakes as opposed to the linked brakes on the bike you usually ride) in addition to a different bike than you're used to
Too aggressive riding for a bike you weren't that familiar with.

My guess - applied the front brake only, which stood the bike up, couldn't get yourself to release the brakes and turn, ran wide and hit the guardrail. I wouldn't be surprised if riding a linked braked bike has got you relying on the front brake lever allot more than you would if you regularly rode a bike with separate front and rear brake systems. At some point when the bike, started to run wide because you were on the front brake, letting off the brake and/or applying the rear brake might have saved your bacon, by allowing you to turn in more.

I ride different bikes quite often and even though I've done thousands of miles on each bike, it generally takes me a full day of riding or more to adjust completely to riding a different bike. Until I get back into the swing of things, on a different bike, I'm a more conservative rider. Gotta unlearn what I've been doing on a different bike and relearn what works best with the bike I'm on. When things start to get pear shaped, things can often come down to familiarity with what works, and when you do something reflexively that you think should work (eg. using the front brake to slow down) and it doesn't it is very tough to figure out what to do.

Could be all wet, but that's my guess.

Lastly, I agree that the cup was virtually a non-factor in the accident, except to the degree it may have been another distraction to your focus.

Glad you're healing is going well and you've been back on a bike.

[vince]

Just some points here in the video. If you look closely maybe about the 11 sec you will notice the bars shack. This is when he fell off the bike. He landed close to the center line. The cup is a McDonald's box. The bike is upside down in the rail. In fact the steering head bearings wear laying on the ground. The bike was on its side before it crossed the white line. It also went into the rail almost straight on and took 4 guys to pull it out.