We Disagree, We Dislike, We Hate - We Behave Civilly

[Ray916MN]

I clicked a few applauds, then decided it has no useful application so I'm no longer going to bother.  It only makes sense if it's per posting.

I'm not getting the rationale over it somehow being a recruitment tool.  Would *you* join a forum simply because most people have more Applauds than Smites?  It wouldn't matter to me one bit.  In fact, I might view it as an "mommy moderated" board.

(Please APPLAUD me if you AGREE.)   

And SMITE Paul if you DISAGREE 

It is not that the Karma system is a recruitment tool it is a way for someone new to the forum to get some context about how the forum feels about the poster. Do they generally agree, respect, like the poster (allot more Applauds than Smites) or is it a mixed bag (nearly equal Applauds to Smites) or is that no one seems to agree, respect (Allot more Smites than Applauds) or that the forum has no opinion, one way of the other (very few or no Appluads or Smites). It also enables someone watching a thread to possibly get an idea of how the thread is going. If it is a debate is a person on one side of the debate gaining Applauds while the other person picks up Smites? 

Of course none of this is 100% or to be taken as the gospel, but it is some indication and more indication than silence, and is public unlike all the PMing and behind the back stuff which unfortunately seems to happen allot.

So imagine, someone comes on the forum and start posting about hitting triple digits, dragging their knees on the street, how they like to rip up the streets and how if you ain't crashing you ain't riding fast enough. While of course, some are going to post that they don't think this is the right way to ride on the street, many others would probably smite the poster. On the other hand, if someone posts up about organizing a ride for new riders, something which everyone seems to be supportive of, maybe the poster would get allot of applauds. Over time I expect, based on what I've seen on other forums, the use of applauds and smites for the most part will become as simple as these examples and support providing people with a better idea of what the forum feels about topics and/or members.

Of course, being who we are, I expect we'll have deep discourse and debate and disagreement on this feature and of course, if the feature doesn't work well, we'll just turn it off.

[aschendel]

I don't mind the changes, and I think the approach that the Safety sub-forum is trying might be great, so don't take this as any sort of criticism for sure.

If the Karma isn't post-specific (I misunderstood that this was its purpose) I imagine it will simply point out which people have strong personalities, loyal friends and devoted enemies.  I don't mind having easy feedback to curtail some of the less civil posts, but I'm not going to be placing much stock in an unknown person's (or group of people's) opinion of people I may or may not end up liking until I have the chance to get to know them, you know, IRL.  The people I already know I already like, even if our riding styles, religious beliefs, moral standards, political bents or favorite roads don't mesh perfectly or our ages, races, socia-economic status, and orientations aren't identical.

For the record, I believe I posted at least twice in general support of the conversation Lloyd, and you in the opening post of that thread, were trying to have:
http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1005.msg10639.html#msg10639
http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1005.msg10694.html#msg10694
http://mn-msta.com/index.php/topic,1005.msg11094.html#msg11094

Furthermore, haven't many "new" rides and organizers sprung up this spring, perhaps in a direct response to a call for more involvement and diversity?


a.s.

[carlson_mn]

I'm going to smite everybody that partakes in this system since I think it's dumb... uhhh wait a minute...

[Hope2Ride]

Ray you said it was a way for members to like or dislike a post. All Im seeing is the cumulative number, no specifics. For example I have 3+ so is there away for me to know which 3 posts of mine were liked?

[Ray916MN]

Ray you said it was a way for members to like or dislike a post. All Im seeing is the cumulative number, no specifics. For example I have 3+ so is there away for me to know which 3 posts of mine were liked?

Yes it is not post specific, but if you're following a thread along you can tell when someone posts something which is disliked. You see their smite count go up, or when they post something which is liked their applaud count goes up. This assumes the poster is actively posting in a single thread and not posting all over the place, and it assumes that people are not "catching up" on Karma (at present I suspect allot of people are actually applauding and smiting based on non-current past threads).

So for example, I picked up another smite in the last 30 minutes or so, and have pretty much only been active in this thread since the late afternoon. I think it is fair to conclude that someone didn't like what I posted to this thread.

[mngir1]

I think the intent is good but in order to provide meaningful feedback, it would need to be post specific. 

As it stands, anyone who is so inclined could daily smite an individual.  That individual would end up with lots of negative feedback, but it could solely be one person throwing the stats while everyone else opts out.  It's false information.

Someone dislikes me but I have no idea why.   Hmm???      Not sure how that's helpful.

OTOH if I posted something controversial and immediately got a dozen dislikes specific to my post, I might reconsider posting something of a similar nature in the future.

[Greg]

I think the intent is good but in order to provide meaningful feedback, it would need to be post specific. 

As it stands, anyone who is so inclined could daily smite an individual.  That individual would end up with lots of negative feedback, but it could solely be one person throwing the stats while everyone else opts out.  It's false information.

Someone dislikes me but I have no idea why.   Hmm???      Not sure how that's helpful.

OTOH if I posted something controversial and immediately got a dozen dislikes specific to my post, I might reconsider posting something of a similar nature in the future.

Agreed. There is nothing stopping an individual from repeatedly "applaud"
 or "smite" an individual or even themselves (create a false account). My initial support has waned.
"Like" or "Dislike" posts individually.

[Vander]

There is nothing stopping an individual from repeatedly "applaud"
 or "smite" an individual or even themselves (create a false account). My initial support has waned.
"Like" or "Dislike" posts individually.

I share the above sentiment with Greg; just wondering if the forum software has the functionality of rating individual posts... 

From a sociological perspective, it is interesting how the karma points are accumulating, though.  Lloyd seems to be about as polarizing as the abortion debate.   

[Ray916MN]

There is nothing stopping an individual from repeatedly "applaud"
 or "smite" an individual or even themselves (create a false account). My initial support has waned.
"Like" or "Dislike" posts individually.

I share the above sentiment with Greg; just wondering if the forum software has the functionality of rating individual posts... 

From a sociological perspective, it is interesting how the karma points are accumulating, though.  Lloyd seems to be about as polarizing as the abortion debate.   

Unfortunately there is no ability to track this by individual posts, or thread. There are other systems which are similar but I have yet to find one that is not global in nature.

[pkpk]

From a sociological perspective, it is interesting how the karma points are accumulating, though.  Lloyd seems to be about as polarizing as the abortion debate.   

It's not interesting to me to see how the smite points are accumulating on posters who are not controversial.  I am worried they are going to feel bad enough about it to leave because they are going to feel like they have little support (or wonder who among their peers has an envious attitude toward them.)  Is this feature worth it so much to risk that??

[Aprilian]

Can someone create a fake account for "MN-MSTA karma" so we can all smite it out of existence?

It is just as useless as the popularity crap that goes on in junior high school.

Smite away!!!!

[beedawg]

Maybe the karma system would be less controversial if it only offered applauds and no smites.  (I'd be surprised if it's configurable that way).  I think we've all seen forums that offer the ability to "thank" the poster for a specific post with a single click.  The list of "thankers" follows the post.  Those forums don't offer one-click ability to dislike posts, and Facebook doesn't allow one-click negative feedback, either.  The ability to leave negative anonymous feedback so easily seems to be the main complaint with the current system.

I wonder who decided to use the word smite instead of something like boo-hiss or dislike or frown.  Smite just sounds so harsh.

smite (smìt) verb
smote (smot) smitten (smît´n) or  smote smiting, smites verb, transitive
1.   a. To inflict a heavy blow on, with or as if with the hand, a tool, or a weapon. b. To drive or strike (a weapon, for example) forcefully onto or into something else.
2.   To attack, damage, or destroy by or as if by blows.

Brent

[Hope2Ride]

I agree that it doesn't really provide any useful feedback. As I stand now I have 4 people (or someone clicking applaud more than once) who like me or something I have posted and one who does not. But I don't know who or why so there's nothing for me to do with that information. I don't think its gonna hurt anything but it doesn't help a whole lot either. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[supraman]

I actually agree with Lloyd (kind of) on this one. It does seem to be a kind of popularity contest rather then a referendum on a user's posts and is of limited use.

On the flip side I see what Ray was trying to do. I think a forum mod like this one might be more useful?
http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1890

You can disable negative votes if you choose, you can toggle on the option to see who voted how, and it's PER post. So you're essentially voting a POST up/down, instead of voting a PERSON up/down. More useful IMHO.

NOTE: I found that mod in 5m of googling, not necessarily recommending that exact mod be dropped in. Just illustrated what I consider a more useful concept of non-anonymous input based on posts.

[Hope2Ride]

I believe he wanted to keep it anonymous so people who would otherwise be afraid to speak up could like or dislike something. If it changes to become non-anonymous then I would imagine less members will participate. I still don't like it, unless we know what posts are being liked or disliked it doesn't help.