riding schools

[carlson_mn]

Ya.. What Matt said ha

haha i guess i beat you by a few typing minutes

[Jvs]

Sorey I'm nut az Gud withe Theze compudors. Lol

[flyinlow]

I've done some track days and they have let me explore the limits of my bikes in a safe manner. I feel safer on the road having pushed my bikes on the track and knowing their limitations and their idosyncracies. I've also pushed myself on the track, far more than I would on the street. I took the riding course several years ago and one thing always sticks with me, "on the track you can go 100% but on the street you have to dial that back to 75-80% so that you have room for those things you can't predict on the street." I always keep something in reserve on the street, I don't attempt to drag a knee, I don't attempt to be the fastest one out there and always try and learn from riders who are better than me. I try to stick to "the pace" and really was able to test that out riding in North Carolina this fall. I was able to from turn to turn at a decent pace without having to use the brakes much, was able to run a nice rhythm and it was a great ride. I adhere to the principal that as fast as you think you are, there's always somebody faster.

[vince]

Three pages already. It looks like we have a lot to talk about. It's hard for me to say what I am really thinking or trying to say. Street riding you learn how to think quick to expect the unexpected because it is the unexpected that is coming at you. The track teaches you how hard you can brake for one thing. It also teaches you how to go around a corner fast and how to power out. So if a deer runs out in front of you for me this is where the track comes in. Can I turn the bike out of the way in time or can I make the bike turn that sharp. Can I brake and turn at the same time. Can I brake and stop braking and be able to turn the bike and miss. And this is good to know that I can't stop in time and not give up and bail. On the track you are doing the same thing over and over so you could say that you don't have to think or be on your toes if you know what I mean. On the street you are going more than 3 miles so everything is new to you so you maybe paying a lot more attention if you get what I'm saying. One said that they practiced in a parking lot. When I was learning I did this a lot. I practiced braking with the front brake and trying to keep the bike up with the wheel locked up. Not something easy to do. Locking up the front wheel is not the fastest way to stop but in the real world this may happen to you when you are desperate. If you can keep the bike upright for say 20ft without going down this maybe a life saver.

[supraman]

Trackdays of any sort do no equate to a huge cushion on the street as you claim-on the contrary what I see all the time is people who do trackdays routinely somehow equate to thinking suddenly they are fricking an expert and that the fact they can go "fast" on a closed course racetrack that somehow now they have these awesome skills that they have all this room in reserve on the street (or as you put it "huge cushion"). It is a bunch of bullshit and anyone who has been around long enough knows it.

So in the mood of not being a personal attack.........
Not to pick you out-but it is an easy example and you provide almost all the evidence yourself.......
Are you claiming you had some "huge cushion" following Roger in Arkansas when you rode right off the road? Why didn't all your vast skills of the trackdays save you from such a "novice" mistake?
 You clearly fit squarely into the typical stereotype of people that do trackdays-you think you are "fast" and therefore you think that means you are "good".
 Without making this personal, this is strictly for comparison---I ran Barber on a 250 Ninja years ago and ran 11 seconds a lap faster than your fastest lap and you were on a bike that makes 5 times the horsepower.-----You are not fast, despite your bragging of being fast.

Yes there are examples of people who can do trackdays and take something away from them that is beneficial to street riding.
Yes there are examples of people who successfully ride street and track (without riding like an idiot on the street)
Yes it is possible to do both--but the vast majority are adrenaline junkies that can't discern the difference between street smarts and track "fast"

Nowhere do I say it has to be street or track.....I have done plenty of both.

But the vast majority of trackday junkies that I know (likely in the 90%+ range of them). Cannot or will not ride on the street in a manner that isn't mimicking "track riding"--ie. wrong lines for the street, following too close, knee down, using oncoming traffic lanes, hard braking and hard acceleration, riding at or near their limit etc........And to me that certainly isn't "safe" or "controlled" riding-it is them trying to prove they are "fast"

1. While you said twice you didn't want to make it personal, you clearly did.
2. When I first read your post I was a little confused, because you didn't even seem to be replying to my post. You quoted my entire post for posterity, so you know I haven't edited it. Where in there  did I say I was "fast", an "frickin expert", or "bragging of being fast"? I am not a cocky person, and have no illusions of being "fast" on the track compared to many riders. And on the street being "fast" isn't really something to brag about in my opinion...

Not to pick you out-but it is an easy example and you provide almost all the evidence yourself.......
Are you claiming you had some "huge cushion" following Roger in Arkansas when you rode right off the road? Why didn't all your vast skills of the trackdays save you from such a "novice" mistake?
 You clearly fit squarely into the typical stereotype of people that do trackdays-you think you are "fast" and therefore you think that means you are "good".

I have to admit, I LOL'd at this one. I know you don't like me for whatever reasons, and I don't care, but you're really stretching to use me as an example here. The referred to footage (which you must've found from trolling my Facebook or Youtube channel since it was never posted to the forums) had nothing to do with overriding my "vast" trackday skills or in any way riding over my head. It was at the end of a long day of hard riding, I was tired, made a mental mistake and rode off the INSIDE edge of the road by a couple inches. I stayed off the brakes didn't swerve and rode right back on without incident. Stupid? yes. Scary? yes, considering it might not have gone as well as it did. An example of riding over my head while trying to "impress" others with how "fast" I was? No, LOL. I was riding at a reasonable pace on a gentle corner, just a stupid mental mistake. Here's the video...

zx10r - off road excursion

The takeaway from this incident for me was when you're mentally tired, pull back before you make a mental error. I'm willing to admit when I make mistakes...

And again, never said I was "fast" and therefore "good". That's purely just you trying to put words in my mouth.

Without making this personal, this is strictly for comparison---I ran Barber on a 250 Ninja years ago and ran 11 seconds a lap faster than your fastest lap and you were on a bike that makes 5 times the horsepower.-----You are not fast, despite your bragging of being fast.

Congratulations? Again, never bragged of being "fast". Perhaps you misconstrued my posting those video's as me bragging? I just posted them because I thought it was cool what you could do with technology (the GPS data overlays) not because I was trying to impress anyone with my laptimes.

[supraman]

I've done some track days and they have let me explore the limits of my bikes in a safe manner. I feel safer on the road having pushed my bikes on the track and knowing their limitations and their idosyncracies. I've also pushed myself on the track, far more than I would on the street. I took the riding course several years ago and one thing always sticks with me, "on the track you can go 100% but on the street you have to dial that back to 75-80% so that you have room for those things you can't predict on the street." I always keep something in reserve on the street, I don't attempt to drag a knee, I don't attempt to be the fastest one out there and always try and learn from riders who are better than me. I try to stick to "the pace" and really was able to test that out riding in North Carolina this fall. I was able to from turn to turn at a decent pace without having to use the brakes much, was able to run a nice rhythm and it was a great ride. I adhere to the principal that as fast as you think you are, there's always somebody faster.

Rather then trying to explain by what I mean by having a cushion on the street, I'll just "+1" this post. Well put.

[flyinlow]

Supraman, well put. At the end of a hard day of riding its easy to make mistakes, so its that time to dial it back. I know in the riding course at our last session of the day they told us "you're tired, now is not the time to try and do your fastest lap". I went out and only did a couple of laps because I could feel myself tired and said to myself "that's enough, don't need to try and impress anybody, time to head for home" and pulled off the track.

[Duc Man]

Holy crap somebody was human and made a mistake??? Do tell....

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 BEN;
 Using you as an example doesn't make it a personal attack-it is simply using you as an example, nothing personal about it except you could see it that way since it is you used as the example.
 Of course I could have searched youtube for a video of someone none of us know and used that example-but that would be too much like work and an example many wouldn't be able to relate to or judge speed etc by. Especially since many know Rogers pace, so they could relate.

And to answer your question of where in that post do you brag of being fast or good---it isn't in that posting---it is just how you talk, the snide comments you continually make etc.....(on rides, on facebook, at Barber, on other forums, in other postings, pretty much all the time) It isn't just me that sees you "bragging" of how fast you are. It isn't me putting those words in your mouth.
 I only used the Barber lap time comparison as a reference to your "being fast" comments. I don't consider myself "fast" at the track, and I get smoked by the "fast" guys that are actually "fast".

***** here is the edit part, I left the original post stand for clarification *****

My intent with bringing up the incident in Arkansas where Ben ran off the road was merely to question where he comes up with his thought that track riders have "HUGE cushion". Knowing that Ben fancies himself quite the trackday person- it would have stood to reason he would have such "HUGE cushions" on such a typical type of street ride, he would not be subject to such a mistake?

Calling him out for his "bragging" had nothing to do with the videos he has posted, and was unnecessary--I should have simply informed him of that perception by many in a pm. Thus the laptime comparison would not have been needed to be as an example to debunk his bragging of being "fast" either. So regardless of if he fits squarely into the stereotypical trackday junkie or not-it is irrelevant and was not needed to be posted.

[kp]

I thought this thread was Hope asking for feedback about riding schools?


not chest beating and posturing, oh well.

[Jared]

Lots of good comments in this thread from all perspectives.  Here's mine to stink it up: Riding courses can be really useful to newer riders.  Lots of crashes and close calls on the street with new riders are caused by things like

-Not thinking you can stop fast enough to avoid a hazard and "having to lay it down" LOL
-Not keeping your eyes far enough ahead and target fixating
-Not knowing how to trail brake in a corner if you need to scrub a bit of speed
-Not trusting the bike to turn, standing it up and riding off.
-etc etc etc

These are all things that you can work on on the street or during a rider course, the nice thing about the rider course is that it gives you dedicated instructors who are there to teach you and a clean riding surface.  Matt makes a good case for practicing these skills in a parking lot too.  On a closed course, it also can be less distracting because many new riders are so hung up in "keeping up" on the street that they end up dedicating all of their attention to that vs improving skills.  I haven't met Hope but from the vibe I get it seems like she might be an exception to this trend...  Maybe it's the lack of testosterone.

Give the courses a try.  You will either like them or not like them and then you can move on from there.  $50 is a pretty cheap price tag to find out where you land.  As for whether "track riding" has the potential to make you more dangerous on the street, there's only one thing that can do that and it's you and the decisions you make.  To Lloyds point, I have seen folks who ride the track get used to riding in a specific style at a specific speed which translates into major risk the street.  I have also seen people who double duty it who are the smoothest, most consistent, best street riders I have ever seen.

[beedawg]

I thought this thread was Hope asking for feedback about riding schools?

not chest beating and posturing, oh well.

You say that like chest beating and posturing are bad things.

[beedawg]

Other than ZARS, are there any recommended riding schools/instructors in the area?

I took Steve Baumen's class a couple times in '02, the first year it was offered.  It was excellent.  The only training I'd had before that was an MSF Experienced RiderCourse a couple years earlier, and some mandatory training to get my endorsement when I was 17, which was a joke and probably turned me away from training.

Blackhawk Farms on the Wisconsin/Illinois border has been doing their own motorcycle track days once a month, and they have some pretty good classroom-type instruction.  They don't do a lot of one-on-one, but I've heard things in the classroom sessions that were really helpful to me.

Brent

[Aprilian]

Yeah, I like BHF.  It is in South Beloit IL.  Beloit is in Wisconsin.   Fun track.   Wish I had known about their school, I rode the track with NESBA and was underwhelmed, so never went back to a NESBA event.

[supraman]

BEN;
Using you as an example doesn't make it a personal attack-it is simply using you as an example, nothing personal about it except you could see it that way since it is you used as the example.
 Of course I could have searched youtube for a video of someone none of us know and used that example-but that would be too much like work and an example many wouldn't be able to relate to or judge speed etc by. Especially since many know Rogers pace, so they could relate.

And if you had contained your post to discussing the video/incident you were trying to make an example of, and not veered into accusing me of being egotistical (a rather ironic accusation coming from you) I would've agreed. But of course, you didn't. The video is posted, along with my takeaway. People can judge for themselves what happened, the road is hwy 123 near Mt. Judea in AR and the rider ahead of me was indeed Roger.

And to answer your question of where in that post do you brag of being fast or good---it isn't in that posting---it is just how you talk, the snide comments you continually make etc.....(on rides, on facebook, at Barber, on other forums, in other postings, pretty much all the time) It isn't just me that sees you "bragging" of how fast you are. It isn't me putting those words in your mouth.
 I only used the Barber lap time comparison as a reference to your "being fast" comments. I don't consider myself "fast" at the track, and I have won lots of races and routinely run lap times well under most. I get smoked by the "fast" guys that are actually "fast".

Clearly, it isn't "just you", since we don't interact anywhere except here. In fact there is precisely one person (not you) that can tick all the bold-ed places, who has been surprisingly absent from this thread on track riding. I assumed there was someone else behind all the "bragging" remarks, now I know. Not sure why this person thinks that way, but that's their right I guess.

I hope I don't, and don't think I do, come across as egotistical in "real life" or other places. Because I certainly don't regard myself as fast or a model rider per se (my words), I do enjoy razzing my friends good naturedly (and expect and do get it right back), especially at the track or on Facebook. I could see how someone quietly observing could misconstrue that I suppose. I have met and ridden with quite a few of the active members on here, which is something I value about this forum over the others, almost everyone is a face not just a screen name. They are free to draw their own conclusions about me from actual experience, not just internet hyperbole.

Anywho, I'm tired of arguing on the internet. It never gets anywhere anyways. You used your example of my video, whether or not it really backed up what you were trying to say. I'm ready to move on and actually talk abut bikes and riding again...