Ride your own ride

[Tim...]

Still do not have an official answer.  Lot's of side topics - but Ray, Tony still no MSTA definition.

[tk]

My definition of "ride your own ride" is that in a group setting you should ride as you normally would if you were riding the same route alone. For me this means I don't let the group determine my speed or when to pass cars or what line to take thru corners or whether to stop or not. If I have a routesheet and I know where the group is going there is no need for me to stay with the group.

[Tim...]

As always, Tony you are a class act.

The problem I have with your definition is that you have situational awareness and are able to self-navigate.  Would you be able to "ride your own ride" if, say you were in Alaska riding with a bunch of locals, they handed you a route sheet and told to "ride your own ride" - how comfortable would that be?

I am with armybikr on this - what is the point of a group ride if you are to "ride your own ride" when this definition implies that you will be left behind and fend for yourself with nothing but a route sheet?

Not providing for new riders on this forum, is in my humble opinion, a disservice to the sport-riding community; what are the alternatives, let them "earn" their stripes before they can join an MNSTA ride - bullshit.  Organize teaching rides that introduce the pace and WI roads that we all love so much.  Personally, I get a lot of reward from teaching, and I would invite Paul, Ray, Tony, and Vince to do so.  If it has failed in the past, all that means is that you are doing it wrong.

Would be all over this myself if personal situation dictates no MC riding this year.  C'mon MNSTA, teach the noobs the ABC's.

[tk]

I agree we don't make much effort to organize rides specifically for newer riders. They do a much better job of it on TA and ZG. We completely suck at organizing social events compared to these other forums also.

Still, there is nothing to prevent anyone from organizing and posting a ride for newer people. Also some of the non MSTA rides I see posted can
accomodate newer riders. The Frontier ride comes to mind. I've seen people complete that ride at a very modest pace. The ride is short. The roads are not very challenging (at normal speeds) and there are often others to ride with who enjoy a moderate pace.

My first obligation is to dues paying members. Their preference seems to be for longer rides on challenging roads. Therefore I plan my routes accordingly. It is difficult to reconcile the preferences of the MSTA membership with the needs of newer riders. I will give it some thought. Maybe I can do some ice cream rides when it warms up some more.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

"I agree we don't make much effort to organize rides specifically for newer riders. They do a much better job of it on TA and ZG. We completely suck at organizing social events compared to these other forums also."

 Since ride leaders routinely "set an example" of what good riding should be- I would hardly consider any of those rides to be a good example or foster the proper learning environment for a "noob".
Sure they are short, sure they are full of stops, sure they are close to home on nothing roads.......but what did the "noob" learn.....That to be cool and to be considered 'good" you need to ride triples and pass on the shoulder???

Come on seriously--- I find recommending that as a good learning environment to be wreckless at best.

I'll give you the social events---they love to party and drink......must be the lack of responsibility and generational thing?

[Ray916MN]

As always, Tony you are a class act.

The problem I have with your definition is that you have situational awareness and are able to self-navigate.  Would you be able to "ride your own ride" if, say you were in Alaska riding with a bunch of locals, they handed you a route sheet and told to "ride your own ride" - how comfortable would that be?

It would be just fine for me. I ride and have ridden areas all over the country that I've never been in before off of route sheets. Sometimes leading groups of people who also have never ridden in the area before and sometimes leading folks who are native to the area.

Now let me ask you a question. Would you recommend a rider who had just gotten their license join a group of experienced riders on a ride to Hyder Alaska from the states? Are the professional tour companies who run tours to different areas wrong in characterizing some of their rides as for experienced riders? These guys stand to make money, they aren't doing it for free. Why do these professionals make the distinction?

I am with armybikr on this - what is the point of a group ride if you are to "ride your own ride" when this definition implies that you will be left behind and fend for yourself with nothing but a route sheet?

Let me separate the objectives of a rider on a ride into two separate objectives. One is to have a fun ride, the other is to learn how to ride better.

Let's think of outfits like Edelweiss as being providers of the former. They make it easy for riders to have a fun time. This is what the MN-MSTA is mostly about. A club to have a fun time. They help make it easier for people to go on rides together in the best riding areas in the world.

So let's make our rides appropriate for all riders. We can do a better job of this than anyone else. Let's post them to all the other forums since we can do a better job than anyone else. We've been there and done that. While I think allot of people on other forums thought they were great, our core membership thought it sucked and we failed. Are you suggesting that we need to go back to making our rides appropriate for everyone and then cross posting them to all the other forums? If not, how is anything less, not elitist?

Now let's look at the outfits that focus on the other objective, teaching riders how to ride better. MSF, ZARS, DirtBike Tech. Stayin Safe.

All except for Stayin Safe offer closed course instruction only. Check out the way Stayin Safe provides public road street instruction. Lead rider, sweep rider, two way communication between teachers and students. The MSTA has started having these folks offer training in conjunction with the MSTA national rally and I'm looking at arranging for them to be at TWiSTAR. Based on recent forum discussion I'll also be looking at bringing them to runs some training for anyone on the forum who is interested. Of course the knock is Stayin Safe courses aren't cheap. I expect that it will take a guarantee of a few thousand dollars to get them to offer courses here. I could see personally doing this for the club.

What has the club traditionally done to help new riders? As PKPK would say, BACK IN DAY. The answer is the club has traditionally done nothing. There has never been a successful club organized program for new riders, although it has been tried. While the MSTA Membership Partner Program exists, it is a failure in my book. Why is it a failure? Because I can never get enough volunteers for it, and I personally end up doing it at every TWiSTAR. I suppose for all those who benefit from it, it is successful, and I suppose for all those who think the club needs it and are happy to point people my way it is a success, but let me make it clear as someone who has allot of time and effort invested in it, as opposed to lip service, it is a failure. OTOH, individual members have done much without a formal program. Look at what Lloyd has done. But outside of this stuff, what the club traditionally does is take care of its own. Club members would maybe introduce a new rider to the club that they knew needed help and they would help this person and others in the club would help this person. With respect to this type of help, I don't think anything has changed. While the club may make statements which seem off putting to new riders, the fact is, new riders who form good enough relationships with club members for those members to bring them into the club get taken care of.

Not providing for new riders on this forum, is in my humble opinion, a disservice to the sport-riding community; what are the alternatives, let them "earn" their stripes before they can join an MNSTA ride - bullshit.  Organize teaching rides that introduce the pace and WI roads that we all love so much.  Personally, I get a lot of reward from teaching, and I would invite Paul, Ray, Tony, and Vince to do so.  If it has failed in the past, all that means is that you are doing it wrong.

Would be all over this myself if personal situation dictates no MC riding this year.  C'mon MNSTA, teach the noobs the ABC's.

Let me start by asking you to prove the truth of your assertion "If it has failed in the past, all that means is that you are doing it wrong"
Show me who is doing it right? Prove to me that it can be done right. If you can't show that someone is doing it right, then how do you know that failure in the past proves that you are doing it wrong. Can't prove it? Does that prove that you're making you're point the wrong way? Inability to do something, simply proves that you can't do it. In order for it to prove that you were doing it wrong, you need to prove someone else knows how to do it right. When no one knows how to do something, they might be doing it wrong, it also might be impossible to do.

I'm on all the other local Minnesota riding forums. I read them regularly. The overlap in membership between this forum and all the other forums is significant, with this forum being by far the least popular. I think that is good. The MN-MSTA is not for everyone and has no interest in being for everyone. There is clear bias of members to quality over quantity. It is reflected in things like not having a big kick off ride with hundreds of riders, or having allot of focus on representing by wearing forum branded wear. The forum is targeted at a set of  discerning riders.

As represented by the interest and posts on the other local forums, the demand for new rider rides, well organized rides, rides which introduce riders to the best roads in the area is huge. The other forums with a minimum of roughly double the number of members as this forum has up to more than 10 times the number of members, even with all those members are failing to offer much for new riders. If they were doing a good job, Armybiker, who is a member on the other forums wouldn't bother with this forum.

Let's flip this around now. With all the overlap of membership on this forum and membership on other forums, if we offered a significantly better way to support new riders, how many new riders like Armybiker do you think would end up in our forum? Our experience shows that when we make our mainstay offering, organized rides widely available to everyone on all the Minnesota forums, we get so much demand it overwhelms us, ruins our rides and drives away our volunteers. You may not realize it, but one of the reasons so many of our rides start early in the morning so far away from the Twin Cities was to provide a barrier to entry for all the irresponsible unskilled riders who would show up hung over without a way to carry a route sheet when rides were started closer to the Twin Cities.

Now, knowing you Tim, the elitist bells are going off in your head, and you have a point. The counterpoint is, you used to go on rides regularly on the other forums, you are aware of them, why do you reserve your comments and as best as I can tell most of your riding time for this "elitist" forum as opposed to the other forums? Are you an elitist in denial?

So back to how to support new riders. BACK IN THE DAY, it was done by members with relationships with new riders bringing them into the club and everyone watching out and helping new riders, much as parents who are part of a group of friends help out with each an others children. The club is and always has been about relationships and riding and the club remains as such.

Can the club support the broad new rider community without any relationship to members. I don't think so. While members are always willing to do things to help other members, I'm not so sure that there is enough resource and interest in the club to support the entire new rider community, just as there is not enough resource and interest in the club to support the entire riding community interested in rides on the alphabet roads of Wisconsin.

[Aprilian]

I have an example of good from HSTA days.  For one Slimey Crud ride I was asked to accompany a newer rider who wanted a shorter, slightly lower paced ride.   Ray made a route for us (I probably forgot to say "Thanks Ray!"  ) and we went off from Beth's at the same time as everyone else.   There was a route problem (2 E's in two different counties - we were supposed to take the second  ) and the time we passed the whole group of faster riders (going the opposite direction!!!!  ).  We never made it to Deland and actually took the Highway back, but we had fun and visited with everyone at Beth's.   If I had of tried to do the extra miles and keep up with the faster group, I might have had a worse experience and never came back.

So why not have the ORGANIZER also create a shortened version of the route for newer or slower riders.   I've designed a charity ride like this for 9 years and it is always fun for both groups to arrive at the lunch spot within a couple minutes of each other.

[Ray916MN]

So why not have the ORGANIZER also create a shortened version of the route for newer or slower riders.   I've designed a charity ride like this for 9 years and it is always fun for both groups to arrive at the lunch spot within a couple minutes of each other.

Creating some shorter routes is great idea.

Some rides are simply too long to create a shortened new rider suitable route. For example Slimey Crud is a 600 mile day for me, and I think at most this route can be cut down to about a 500 mile day for a rider living in the Twin Cities. Most experienced riders would consider this to be a very long riding day.

There are 4 regular ride organizers who do their routes the old fashioned way, without using mapping software. They use a map and literally ride the route they create stopping at the side of the road and writing down the route mileages and directions as they go. They typically ride the route at least two times, once to create it, and once to check it, meaning it takes them a minimum of two days of dawn to dusk riding to create a route. These routes are typically sent to Roger or I and we translate them into electronic forms (formatted PDF route sheet and GPS files). If there was a shorter route desired by someone it is possible that Roger or I could create one, but much of this depends on when we get the route from the organizer. One of the old fashion created routes I got from one organizer took me over 3 hours to develop an electronic version. Some of the route references and mileages did not match up to anything I could find on three different mapping programs, nor on the DeLorme and other hard copy maps I had of the area.

I would be willing to create a shorter route of any ride for which it makes sense to do, as long as I was given at least a couple of weeks advance notice.

A clue to who is one of the old school route creators might be discerned in the response immediately preceding this response.

[flyinlow]

You may not realize it, but one of the reasons so many of our rides start early in the morning so far away from the Twin Cities was to provide a barrier to entry for all the irresponsible unskilled riders who would show up hung over without a way to carry a route sheet when rides were started closer to the Twin Cities.

This is the main reason I don't attend many of the rides. I'm up at 5am every day for work, work at least 10 hours a day downtown, plus commuting. By the time Saturday roles around I want to sleep in at least until 8am, which doesn't allow me enough time to get to Nelson to join rides. No ones problem but mine, but it would be nice if rides started a little later. I realize alot of you guys like to ride sunup til sundown, again, don't have that kind of time, have other obligations, but it seems most of the rides on this forum are designed as 500 mile days. At least that's what I see every time someone posts up how many miles they did in a day.

[Tim...]

Ray, you made this personal by calling me out by name; what is your definition of "ride your own ride"?

[Ray916MN]

Ray, you made this personal by calling me out by name; what is your definition of "ride your own ride"?

I like Tony's definition.

[Tim...]

That was easy

[vince]

I haven't been on here for two days and I sure have a lot to catch up on. For me putting a route together is a lot of work I wish it wasn't but it is for me. I have been on every one of those roads but I have a hard time putting them together to make them fun. Ray and Lloyd are very good at this. I would gladly lead more rides if I had differant routes to ride and I know we can ride some of the same roads on differant routes. I do go out and pre ride the route to make sure the mileage is correct and all the dots connect. I can lead a fast one or a beginners ride no trouble. I have ridden the roads so many times that slowing to smell the roses is OK sometimes. So if some one wants to put a route together and wants some one to lead sure I will do it.
Ride you own ride or what is MSTA. Well it is not having to watch out for others because they know what they are doing so you enjoy your ride more and then share it with others afterwards. It's long rides that are well put together. They maybe challenging or scenic or both. It's learning from others even if they are not teaching. It's about going on a ride and every one is ready to ride. They have good tires, a good running bike, they tell you they have a sore ass but are enjoying it, if it rains or the road goes bad it's OK. They are all die hard bikers and will never give up the sport.

[Aprilian]

Creating some shorter routes is great idea.

There are 4 regular ride organizers who do their routes the old fashioned way, without using mapping software. They use a map and literally ride the route they create stopping at the side of the road and writing down the route mileages and directions as they go. They typically ride the route at least two times, once to create it, and once to check it, meaning it takes them a minimum of two days of dawn to dusk riding to create a route. These routes are typically sent to Roger or I and we translate them into electronic forms (formatted PDF route sheet and GPS files). If there was a shorter route desired by someone it is possible that Roger or I could create one, but much of this depends on when we get the route from the organizer. One of the old fashion created routes I got from one organizer took me over 3 hours to develop an electronic version. Some of the route references and mileages did not match up to anything I could find on three different mapping programs, nor on the DeLorme and other hard copy maps I had of the area.

I would be willing to create a shorter route of any ride for which it makes sense to do, as long as I was given at least a couple of weeks advance notice.

Believe me, I know about creating and riding 2 different routes to create a traditional turn-by-turn route sheet.  For my charity rides I spend 2-3 full days just riding and checking mileages.  I regularly get screwed up when I ride it on different bikes and the odometers are not perfectly synched.

Why create GPS files for paper based routes?  I thought everyone in MSTA was expected to be able to SELF NAVIGATE!   

[pkpk]

Why create GPS files for paper based routes?  I thought everyone in MSTA was expected to be able to SELF NAVIGATE!   

Rhetorical question I know but I hate looking down at route sheets when I can have the pleasant British lady tell me when to turn.   I've actually rode whole 10 day trips on a GPS, without once pulling out a map.

Having a GPS doesn't mean I can't navigate.  It means I choose to use different tools.  Having everyone using the same programmed route has it's advantages as there is rarely wrong turns and riders tend to spread out more.  I've done my share of converting route sheets and it's sort of gratifying to be thanked at the starting point the next morning.