We Disagree, We Dislike, We Hate - We Behave Civilly

[beedawg]

You can disable negative votes if you choose, you can toggle on the option to see who voted how, and it's PER post. So you're essentially voting a POST up/down, instead of voting a PERSON up/down. More useful IMHO.

I think the mod recommended by Ben does exactly what most people seem to want.  I would "Like" Ben's post if I had that option.

[Ray916MN]

From a sociological perspective, it is interesting how the karma points are accumulating, though.  Lloyd seems to be about as polarizing as the abortion debate.   

It's not interesting to me to see how the smite points are accumulating on posters who are not controversial.  I am worried they are going to feel bad enough about it to leave because they are going to feel like they have little support (or wonder who among their peers has an envious attitude toward them.)  Is this feature worth it so much to risk that??

I think this reflects the issue. You may think certain people's posts are fine, but others may disagree.

The issue is how to run an open forum and maintain civility without censorship. The fact is we don't all agree. The next issue is what to do when we don't agree? Some may simply be silent, some may speak out, some may call for action to either drive or institute rules which force agreement. Anonymity and simple thumbs up, thumbs down helps provide members with an alternative action to take when they disagree. It is somewhat like being in crowd hearing a speech. People applaud what the like and boo what they don't. No individual arguments, fights, confrontations, just a simple way for a group of people to provide feedback.

I actually agree with Lloyd (kind of) on this one. It does seem to be a kind of popularity contest rather then a referendum on a user's posts and is of limited use.

On the flip side I see what Ray was trying to do. I think a forum mod like this one might be more useful?
http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1890

You can disable negative votes if you choose, you can toggle on the option to see who voted how, and it's PER post. So you're essentially voting a POST up/down, instead of voting a PERSON up/down. More useful IMHO.

NOTE: I found that mod in 5m of googling, not necessarily recommending that exact mod be dropped in. Just illustrated what I consider a more useful concept of non-anonymous input based on posts.

The mod Ben found looks good. Unfortunately it is not cleanly compatible with the forum version we are running. I've seen a few SMF forums get taken down by hackers and we are on the latest production release of forum software to minimize the potential for this. Unfortunately 3rd party mods like what Ben found are generally not kept current with forum software. It appears that the mod has been implemented by some forums running the same version we are running, but it takes some editing of the mod code and is not problem free. Not sure I can or want to do this. Karma was implemented because it is an integral feature of the forum software we use, not a 3rd party mod. This means it is always supported and compatible with every new release of forum software.

Lastly, even post by post voting doesn't eliminate the potential for people to simple down rate posts from people they dislike solely on the basis of their dislike for the person. There is no system in the world which can force people to vote based on a set criteria. In any voting system, voters can vote however they like using whatever criteria they want. You can take the high schoolers out of high school, but that doesn't prevent them from acting like they are in high school.

I think the notion that there is any forum feedback system which can not be subverted or perverted from its intent is putting an overly high standard on the idea. I'm not sure elections for public officials can meet the standard of voters voting based upon the intent of choosing the best qualified person for public office. People vote for many different reasons, some of which the founding fathers probably would have found unfair, surprising, bizarre or incomprehensible but nonetheless not a reason to abandon voting. The idea is simply to provide members another means of providing public feedback to other members of the forum.

Anyhow, I appreciate the feedback. Keep it coming.

[beedawg]

The issue is how to run an open forum and maintain civility without censorship.

Well there ya go, enforcing your preferences (civility, free speech) on the rest of us... 

 

I understand why you don't want to do the mod that Ben found.  But do you agree that it's a better set of features than the karma system?

karma chameleon - culture club

Desert loving in your eyes all the way
If I listen to your lies would you say
I'm a man without conviction
I'm a man who doesn't know
How to sell a contradiction
You come and go, you come and go

Karma karma karma karma, karma chameleon
You come and go, you come and go
Loving would be easy if your colors were like my dream
Red gold and green, red gold and green

Didn't hear your wicked words everyday
And you used to be so sweet, I heard you say
That my love was an addiction
When we cling our love is strong
When you go you're gone forever
You string along, you string along

Karma karma karma karma, karma chameleon
You come and go, you come and go
Loving would be easy if your colors were like my dream
Red gold and green, red gold and green
[ From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/c/culture-club-lyrics/karma-chameleon-lyrics.html ]

Every day is like survival
You're my lover, not my rival
Every day is like survival
You're my lover, not my rival

I'm a man without conviction
I'm a man who doesn't know
How to sell a contradiction
You come and go, you come and go

Karma karma karma karma, karma chameleon
You come and go, you come and go
Loving would be easy if your colors were like my dream
Red gold and green, red gold and green

Karma karma karma karma, karma chameleon
You come and go, you come and go
Loving would be easy if your colors were like my dream
Red gold and green, red gold and green

Karma karma karma karma, karma chameleon
You come and go, you come and go
Loving would be easy if your colors were like my dream
Red gold and green, red gold and green
Karma karma karma karma, karma chameleon

[Tim...]

Hmmm, game-on Lloyd for the highest negative karma count.  I like the new feature 

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Hmmm, game-on Lloyd for the highest negative karma count.  I like the new feature 

Coming from the guy who is quadruple negatives as apposed to positives.....Should I send everyone the rest of the PM's you have been sending?

GTFU

[Tim...]

^ ahhh c'mon, surely you understood the sarcasm. 

[Jared]

I think that something like the karma system has a place on the board.  I can definitely understand Ray's desire to have a board that is a positive face of the MSTA to the MC community without having to feel like he has to invest a lot of time and energy on watching the board and modding threads.  A couple of possible changes I would propose:

1) Instead of being able to applaud or smite someone on an hourly basis, make it daily.  This will minimize the impact that a persons haters, BFFs, or sycophants can have on their rep.   For example, if there's someone who is pissed off at me, they can smite me up to 12, 14, 18 times a day (or 24 if they are really industrious).  Limiting this to once daily will give my rep a chance to be influenced by what I actually post up vs. just being smashed by someone who dislikes me personally (maybe having nothing to do with anything I post), not to mention that I'd hope my hater would grow bored with smiting me once daily with little impact to my overall rep.

2) Eliminate the smite button.  The only feedback that can be given is for positive, beneficial posts.  This may help to eliminate some of the high school/junior high popularity contest vibe that some are feeling.  I would not add this without adding #1 for the reasons I mention above.

JP

[Vander]

Is there a feature to enable a 12 hour "auto-ban" for someone that clicks more than 5 smites in an hour?
Perhaps for some cooling off time?

 

I think others should consider if someone is so petty as to anonymously smite you over and over in a passive aggressive way attempting to upset you... that the action should not even be acknowledged.

The internet seems to give some people a very weird sense of pseudo-courage that melts away when confronted face-to-face about these petty grievances.  Just sayin’…

[Tim...]

Just do not think a Karma system is the way to go.  For example Ray, look at the S1000RR forum, which has worldwide membership, why do you think there is no Karma system?  If the issue is moderation, then enlist moderators - not some gimmicky juvenile popularity contest!

[vince]

How about we have just a like button. If you like what there are saying you click it if not you can't do anything. The way it should be. All positive.

[beedawg]

1) Instead of being able to applaud or smite someone on an hourly basis, make it daily.

That can be done.  I think daily is a good interval.

2) Eliminate the smite button.  The only feedback that can be given is for positive, beneficial posts.  This may help to eliminate some of the high school/junior high popularity contest vibe that some are feeling.  I would not add this without adding #1 for the reasons I mention above.

That can be done, sort of, by calling it Jaredize, as in "I Jaredized that silly so-and-so for that post."  But unfortunately, you can't turn off negative feedback only.

http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Features_and_Options#Karma

[supraman]

1) Instead of being able to applaud or smite someone on an hourly basis, make it daily.

That can be done.  I think daily is a good interval.

[SNIP]

http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Features_and_Options#Karma

Brent, I have given you one (1) applaud for your post. lol

I wholeheartedly agree though, changing the interval to at LEAST 24 hours would cut down on some of the petty voting going on towards a handful of people. I would further suggest resetting everyone's count to zero after making said change if Ray goes that route to make it more accurate.

[Tim...]

...
The internet seems to give some people a very weird sense of pseudo-courage that melts away when confronted face-to-face about these petty grievances.  Just sayin’…

Especially true when these people pose as someone else just to stir the pot - not my definition of courage either.

[pkpk]

I think that something like the karma system has a place on the board.  I can definitely understand Ray's desire to have a board that is a positive face of the MSTA to the MC community without having to feel like he has to invest a lot of time and energy on watching the board and modding threads. 

Well I disagree (but I won't smite you.)  I have never seen a respectable forum apply this sort of mechanism and I know for a fact we have now lost one valuable participant because the system was manipulated beyond it's stated purpose.  It's gone beyond an experiment to a bad idea IMO.

Eliminate the smite button.  The only feedback that can be given is for positive, beneficial posts.  This may help to eliminate some of the high school/junior high popularity contest vibe that some are feeling.  I would not add this without adding #1 for the reasons I mention above. JP 

Well, no sort of tracking of opinions should be necessary.  We are (mostly) all adults here.  If we can't work out disagreements by civil discussions, then we are missing out on the beauty of debates and discussions.  Besides, having a "Like" system just seems so Facebook.  I just don't see it's use here. 

[Joel S]

I think that something like the karma system has a place on the board.  I can definitely understand Ray's desire to have a board that is a positive face of the MSTA to the MC community without having to feel like he has to invest a lot of time and energy on watching the board and modding threads. 

Well I disagree (but I won't smite you.)  I have never seen a respectable forum apply this sort of mechanism and I know for a fact we have now lost one valuable participant because the system was manipulated beyond it's stated purpose.  It's gone beyond an experiment to a bad idea IMO.

Eliminate the smite button.  The only feedback that can be given is for positive, beneficial posts.  This may help to eliminate some of the high school/junior high popularity contest vibe that some are feeling.  I would not add this without adding #1 for the reasons I mention above. JP 

Well, no sort of tracking of opinions should be necessary.  We are (mostly) all adults here.  If we can't work out disagreements by civil discussions, then we are missing out on the beauty of debates and discussions.  Besides, having a "Like" system just seems so Facebook.  I just don't see it's use here. 

completely agree pkpk, well said (Debby for you lol) not sure why that changed too lol
i have 0 clue what the ratings accomplishes, makes no sense. Not sure what it was intended to do. I was out of the country for a couple of weeks, came back and the boards blew up in 10 different directions. I doubt anything was accomplished and this rating system is beyond ridiculous.