Riding Safely

[beedawg]

Feel free to criticize but wouldn't it be safer for new riders to be in the back of the group where the pace is generally slower?

I know I've heard that suggestion (to put new riders in the front) before, but I haven't seen it practiced much.  It seems like it would be a good idea.  It's easier to watch newer riders when they're riding near the front of the pack than if they're at the rear.  I've been on group rides where I brought up the rear to watch the stragglers.  I've seen some newer riders at the back of the pack do some crazy stuff trying to keep up with the faster riders.

Another reason to put new riders near the front: If someone riding at the rear of the pack has trouble and/or needs help, it takes longer to communicate that fact to everyone who's been riding ahead of them.

Still, on most of the groups ride I've ridden, the faster riders are at the front.  It doesn't really matter as long as the riders at the front don't ride for hours without checking on the others.

[Greg]

Feel free to criticize but wouldn't it be safer for new riders to be in the back of the group where the pace is generally slower?

I know I've heard that suggestion before, but I haven't seen it practiced much.  It's easier to watch newer riders when they're riding near the front of the pack than if they're at the rear.  I've been on group rides where I brought up the rear to watch the stragglers.  I've seen some newer riders do some crazy stuff trying to keep up with the faster riders.

Another reason to put new riders near the front: If someone riding at the rear of the pack has trouble and/or needs help, it takes longer to communicate that fact to everyone who's been riding ahead of them.

But this analogy falls flat when you apply it to any other sport or group activity where different skill levels are present.
How many times would a group of advanced skiers go down a hill behind less advanced skiers? Not many times ....
How many times would advanced scuba divers go diving with less advanced scuba divers? Not many times ....
How many times would Ben want to play ping-pong with me (hehe) when he consistently beats me 15-3? Not many times ....

It's not a bad thing (nor does it "look down" on other participants) to want to participate in a sport or skilled activity with participants of similar skill levels.

[beedawg]

soo Brent, Black Hills for dirt riding next season? or Colorado?

Actually, I like northern Minnesota better than the Black Hills, but Colorado is really tempting.

Nice little diversion.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Feel free to criticize but wouldn't it be safer for new riders to be in the back of the group where the pace is generally slower?

I know I've heard that suggestion before, but I haven't seen it practiced much.  It's easier to watch newer riders when they're riding near the front of the pack than if they're at the rear.  I've been on group rides where I brought up the rear to watch the stragglers.  I've seen some newer riders do some crazy stuff trying to keep up with the faster riders.

Another reason to put new riders near the front: If someone riding at the rear of the pack has trouble and/or needs help, it takes longer to communicate that fact to everyone who's been riding ahead of them.

But this analogy falls flat when you apply it to any other sport or group activity where different skill levels are present.
How many times would a group of advanced skiers go down a hill behind less advanced skiers? Not many times ....
How many times would advanced scuba divers go diving with less advanced scuba divers? Not many times ....
How many times would Ben want to play ping-pong with me (hehe) when he consistently beats me 15-3? Not many times ....

It's not a bad thing (nor does it "look down" on other participants) to want to participate in a sport or skilled activity with participants of similar skill levels.

"It's not a bad thing (nor does it "look down" on other participants) to want to participate in a sport or skilled activity with participants of similar skill levels. "



Just so I am not misunderstanding.

This is your point here, your argument in this posting?

Because if so, remember the snip of Rays post I quoted like 5 times and the whole parting of the clouds and the sun shining thing...Well hot damn the clouds have all but dissapated now and the sky is looking mighty blue. By Joe I think it is finally coming to light, only 5 pages later......(although I would have phrased it more tactfully...lol)

[Jvs]

I was just thinking in the sense that most group rides put fast riders in front and slow riders in back. The new rider would greatly benefit from seeing bikes enter the corner before them making it easier to judge how fast to hit the corner (not to mention improve reaction time in the rear if they see multiple bikes hitting the brakes before something comes up)
I do like using the scala riders for helping teach new riders. It makes it 100 times easier to tell them how they should change their body position and u can tell them what to look out for on certain roads.

[Ray916MN]

With respect to bringing new people into the group, the intent is to do it entirely by word of mouth or by people who pay attention, noticing MSTA members on other rides and deciding they like to try to ride more with them. Unlike most other forums, we are not interested in being the "largest" or "best", we'd just like to be a group of folks who trust each other to be responsible proficient riders so if you want to go on a ride you can post it on the forum or find one on the forum and expect that the folks who show up will ride responsibly and proficiently on a twisty route of several hundred miles.

New rider, as in new to riding? We used to encourage these folks to join our rides. Personally I now discourage these people unless I'm personally willing to mentor them. It has become clear over time that our rides due to length and type of route are challenging to begin with, and we are not generally prepared to support new riders. If a new rider has a buddy or a group of folks who want to bring them to a ride and mentor them, good deal, but a new rider who just shows up to a ride is a risk. I always don't want to be in anyway responsible for someone having an accident, and unfortunately new riders have been overly prone to having accidents on our rides. New riders on a ride, require special handling, which we aren't prepared to provide.

New rider to the group? Just read the ride guidelines and if you have questions speak with the other folks who show up for the ride or the ride organizer. Ideally every group would be run with a leader and sweeper to help allay any fears a new rider to the group might have, but as people who show up for rides are predominantly there to ride not take care of other riders, having a sweeper and leader is not assured.

Sorting riders by pace order before a group starts riding? No thanks. Much easier to just get on the road and let the people who want to ride faster migrate forward in the group and the people who want to ride slower migrate backwards to the degree necessary. When people are called upon to articulate how competently they ride, most people overstate their competency in my experience. The people who self identify as being fast riders are the people I generally expect to crash. Personally if asked, I pretty much always say I'm slow. I know people who are much better and faster riders than me and saying you're slow and ensures that you will never feel you have to prove anything.

[carlson_mn]

^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually.  For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.

[aschendel]

I think the new riders in front thing can be both new to riding and new to the group.  Both types benefit from not being asked to perform a single thing they are unwilling to decide to do for themselves (i.e. set your own straightaway speed, braking markers, turn in points and corner speeds).  Riding in front eliminates peer pressure, although I'm sure it could / does increase performance anxiety.  In my questions I was focused on experienced (objection: ambiguous) riders new to any particular group.

Established groups do tend to filter fast to the front and slow to the rear, which I don't have any problem with, seems logical and safer than the reverse.  I am going to say that having some idea of how to judge someone's skills is important, and classifying people is key to maintaining safety and personal comfort.  Judging doesn't have to mean judgemental, and if people would just relax and appreciate the effort of the messenger when provided an obvious enough reason to receive constructive criticism, well-delivered or not, the world would be a better place.

I think we're seeing the reemergence of the "Ride your own ride" tag line; it's got to be the most responsible way, if not the absolute safest.

Sorting riders by pace order before a group starts riding? No thanks. Much easier to just get on the road and let the people who want to ride faster migrate forward in the group and the people who want to ride slower migrate backwards to the degree necessary. When people are called upon to articulate how competently they ride, most people overstate their competency in my experience. The people who self identify as being fast riders are the people I generally expect to crash. Personally if asked, I pretty much always say I'm slow. I know people who are much better and faster riders than me and saying you're slow and ensures that you will never feel you have to prove anything.

Ray, I like your idea of stating that you're pretty slow if asked.  That's exactly the way I approach any ride with an unknown group, whether asked or not.  I don't set out to be in front and I filter to the back until I know what to expect.  Since I don't ride regularly enough with most groups I tend to be the back a lot.  In fact, TK and I were bringing up the tail on the Cannon Falls ride-out, and while Lloyd was leading and I think said he never broke 100 ... ah, let's just say this was a perfect example of the "catch up" "problem" (trust me, we didn't consider it a problem) that can hinder new riders.

New rider to the group? Just read the ride guidelines and if you have questions speak with the other folks who show up for the ride or the ride organizer. Ideally every group would be run with a leader and sweeper to help allay any fears a new rider to the group might have, but as people who show up for rides are predominantly there to ride not take care of other riders, having a sweeper and leader is not assured.

I'll admit when I joined I was fearful that I wouldn't be able/want to keep up with you guys.  I did a bunch of reading and reached out to a couple people privately to get a sense for some of the typical riders and routine speeds.  The thoughtful responses were very helpful and gave me a sense that I would fit in.  I actually led the first ride I ever did with mn-msta (going back to my first point in this post), kind of an interview I suppose you might say, and this gave me the perfect chance to ride my own ride (although I'll also admit I went a smidge faster (maybe 5mph?) than my true baseline, no doubt trying to impress those behind me, hey what can I say, I'm human).

Andy

[Deplorable, thank you!]

"In fact, TK and I were bringing up the tail on the Cannon Falls ride-out, and while Lloyd was leading and I think said he never broke 100 ... ah, let's just say this was a perfect example of the "catch up" "problem" (trust me, we didn't consider it a problem) that can hinder new riders."

You are talking about 11 west of that first gas stop. Nothing but big sweepers, one of those kinds of roads where I hate riding, but that was an all MN ride...LOL (and no I never approached 100, even on those huge sweepers where triple digits would be extremly easy to run and maintain.)


New riders to the front only works if the "veteran" riders are willing to follow at a pace they don't necessarily want to run and are also willing and able to "teach" if they feel the need (becasue there no doubt would be the need). While I have done several of these rides, that is not the way I run my rides for when I am out to have a fun, enjoyable, relaxing, refreshing day.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually.  For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.

Sounds to me like you were just following and hoping and assuming Ray would lead you through. Not actually taking accountability for yourself and "riding your own ride"......Which is what we continually preach not to do.

[aschendel]

New riders to the front only works if the "veteran" riders are willing to follow at a pace they don't necessarily want to run and are also willing and able to "teach" if they feel the need (becasue there no doubt would be the need). While I have done several of these rides, that is not the way I run my rides for when I am out to have a fun, enjoyable, relaxing, refreshing day.

This is absolutely true, and I feel the same way about it.  People that bring "new to the group" people to a ride run by someone else are taking a pretty big chance.  If there is any question about their skills (objection: not politically correct), it would be better, at least in my mind to have the "in" person organize a ride, advertised as a getting to know a new person ride (or something slightly more subtle, like a new person getting to know us ride) and then people looking to not ride quite as fast or as far or with as few stops as others can take part and have a great time.

Or maybe the new guy and the friend can take chunks out of the main route (to shorten it up and take the edge off if Lloyd put it together for sure ) and take off on their own, meeting up at the gas/food stops, or the 2nd half or whatever etc.  Kind of a hybrid setup.

I read posts from quite a few people on here that would be willing to help with this so the new guy and the friend had at least one other person along, which would be really nice and probaby very enjoyable.

a.s.

[aschendel]

^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually.  For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.

Sounds to me like you were just following and hoping and assuming Ray would lead you through. Not actually taking accountability for yourself and "riding your own ride"......Which is what we continually preach not to do.

But it does sound like it worked out pretty well, hopefully they've moved past that point in their relationship

Off to bed for me, last night got late.  Hopefully many more honest, soul-baring and stimulating or controversial opinions will be offered for discussion 

a.s.

[Jvs]

I like how the bickering and arguing on this forum actually leads to conclusions. We actually learn something from all the e-fighting here (in comparison to that other forum ) haha.

[carlson_mn]

^ Ray when I got to following behind you when you led towards the end of the Tri-State Boogie you made going "pretty dang quick" look pretty effortlessly actually.  For myself skill level wise, I would put myself somewhere in the middle with 13 years of riding experience, but being able to follow your lines made for a safer "spirited" pace through CR E and some of those other roads that were completely new to me at the time.

Sounds to me like you were just following and hoping and assuming Ray would lead you through. Not actually taking accountability for yourself and "riding your own ride"......Which is what we continually preach not to do.

You're too quick to assume that.  What I am saying is it is nice to follow someone who is experienced on a particular road when at a pace that I am also comfortable with.  Being human, would I have pushed myself too hard if I was in a lead position?  I try not to do that, but I prefer to follow until I know a road well by memory.

[pkpk]

New riders to the front only works if the "veteran" riders are willing to follow at a pace they don't necessarily want to run and are also willing and able to "teach" if they feel the need (becasue there no doubt would be the need).

Also, new riders will most likely feel uncomfortable being out in front, knowing there are seasoned riders behind them.  I've rattled many new riders while I rode sweep over the years.  I notice they become preoccupied with constantly checking their mirrors or their blind spot, even though I've made it more than clear that I am giving them plenty of room to their rear.

I agree with Ray that a 500 miler to Slimey Crud (for example) is not appropriate for new or inexperienced riders.  Around six years ago, I rode sweep and pulled three new riders out of the ditch, and didn't even make it to Leland (the third rider wrecked out so I waited with him for his Dad to bring the truck down.)  All three felt pressured to not look slow (didn't ride their own ride) and were preoccupied with keeping a rider in view (did not use the route sheet.)