riding schools

[Hope2Ride]

Other than ZARS, are there any recommended riding schools/instructors in the area?

[Jvs]

A lot of the schools that ride at DCTC are good. I can't say much about BIR as i have never been there (though i've heard good things about the schools that teach there). When sign ups open up for DCTC i'm gonna go sign up and get me a spot

[Aprilian]

Hedonistic Enthusiasm is just once a year at DCTC and is the least expensive entry into the addiction.  It is very welcoming to newbies and women but has very high instructor to pupil ratio.  there is a web page
Rider Course is the granddaddy at DCTC and has a great following.  However, limited dates and limited customer service.  I have had problems (as have others) with getting help when I needed to cancel/change dates. medium instructor to pupil ratio.  many racers use this for local tuning and practice.  there is a web page
ZARS is the new kid on the block and does both DCTC advanced riding and full on track days.  the usual ratio is one instructor to 3-4 students and we focus on making the student comfortable in the new environment.   If you have never met Jessica, she is a great motivator and a good businesswoman.  The schedule seems to always have openings for first timers and there is a discount for first timers.   There is a web page and a whole section over at MNSBR (sorry for the cross post).


Disclosure, I vounteer teach for ZARS and HE and I teach Total Control for $'s ar Rider Academy.  Both were written up in Minnesota Motorcycle Monthly this year, the reviews might help you decide what is best for you. http://motorbyte.com/
Brent and I are the co lead instructors for level 1 at ZARS and we'd be happy to help you with your new addiction

[Hope2Ride]

wonderful! thank you for the great info!

[kp]

when I attended Riding Course, I found it to be great. Actual classroom
sessions right after track sessions. The day I was there, the instructor to pupil
ratio was high.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

HE...hedonistic Enthusiast at a $50 fee and oriented towards the "first time trackday attendees" is likely your best bang for buck.
Zars-well most of the customers I have that have attended say the same thing, they get good attention in the first session or two of the begginer level 1 (Brent, Debby, Ian) but are neglected after that and for the most part it is just a ride on your own and figure it out on your own after that-especially once you pass level 2.......instruction ? well there is very little-it is just an open trackday....I have some other problems with ZARS days but not relevant to what you hope to accomplish

 I personally think you are and will continue to learn the most on rides with People like Vince, just like what you have been doing for the past 3 months.--But some good reading materials in the off season would help as well.

 I do not think "taking it to the track" is a better way to learn or even a faster way to learn---but everyone has an opinion.

Like we touched on (if one truly believes they "need" a trackday)--one could get a group of 15-20 friends together and rent the track privately for less than one zars day-and run atleast twice as many laps getting away from the 20 minute format and too many long delays from crashing. As a bonus if you pick the right friends you likely would learn more and have a better experience as well.....Hell you could likely even invite a few of those Zars instructors and offer them free tracktime--it seems they are used to be unpaid.

[Greg]

 I do not think "taking it to the track" is a better way to learn or even a faster way to learn---but everyone has an opinion.

Agreed. I will say though that "taking it to the track" does add to your overall body of knowledge about motorcycling. Is it the "end all be all"? Absolutely not, especially when it comes to how much of what you learn on the track translates to street riding.  The debate is still open on how much track instruction helps you on the street. 

[Mike Duluth]

Hope, some of the best instructers are standin right in front of you. Lloyd and Vince are good friends of yours and are some of the best riders I've seen. There will be nothin out there that will do you as much good as time on the bike. You have great enthusiasm and that in it self is the most fun. Riding form is all well and good but won't serve you as well as riding safe.

[Aprilian]

Riding form is all well and good but won't serve you as well as riding safe.

Hi Mike, not sure I fully agree.  For example, if someone is riding dirt bike style, that will be unsafe when they need to tighten up a turn and run out of ground clearance.  Good form isn't just about looking good in photos and video.   
I like how Pat Hahn simplified it  (Ride Hard, Ride Smart)
1) have a plan of how you want to ride
2) practice your skills
3) use protective gear in case 1 and 2 aren't sufficient.

Or did I misunderstand your point?

[Mike Duluth]

I don't think you missunderstood me at all. Track riding is a bit different than the street, like Vince told me awhile ago, some of these people are more concerned about getting a knee down than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I think what you guys are teaching these people is one of the best things goin. All I'm sayin is don't replace skill and safety with form. I've seen this first hand, if your in full race form on the street there is no margin. I'm not sayin that gettin off the bike when you have run out of lean angle is a bad thing. But if your already off the bike and run out of angle(oops)
   All I really want to say is, if you riding track stile on the street your going to get hurt. Most  of the people that do both street and track know the difference, and those that don't as far as I've seen crash.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 I think..............

What is taught at the tracks (trackday or otherwise) is all about racing lines, fastest lines, getting off the bike and knee down or at least out...........then factor in following distances on the track-you are always in very close proximity

 and most of that is not useful on the street, actually most of that is down right dangerous on the street in the wrong hands (which coincidentally is almost everyone using trackdays and riding on the street) Far too many "trackday" riders.......well damn near everyone I know who has done them, is more about going "faster" than being "better" or "safer".............Faster should not be a consideration on the street...faster will come as a result of better and safer. Better and safer will never come as a result of going faster

Just because someone can ride a corner "faster" ..............lets say you can run WI95 from E down to G at 150, does that mean you are a better rider than the person who rides that same stretch at 100? (now I not saying anyone should ride that stretch of road in triple digits--it is simply an example)
 Speed "faster" does not equate to better--if that was the standard-then everyone with a liter bike would be the best riders in the world while all those 600cc and smaller bike riders, well they would apparently just suck by liter bike standards. (I find it usually the opposite in the real world with people buying liter bikes to make up for thier own short comings as a rider....but that is an entirely different argument and doesn't apply to everyone just a large majority)

[supraman]

I think where these discussions always tend to go sideways is when it becomes street OR track, it's quite possible to do both regularly, enjoyably, and relatively safely. I think they both have merit.

My $.02 on crossover skills from closed course riding: (not meant as an argument or personal attack against anyone!)

DCTC, especially at the lower levels (when people aren’t concerned with going “fast”), is a fantastic way to work on the basics like Body Position, Lines, being smooth with throttle and brake inputs, slowly increasing your comfort level with corner speeds and increased lean angle all in a controlled environment (no gravel, oncoming traffic, etc) that all (minus perhaps the lines) translate well to spirited street riding.

Trackdays (at an actual racetrack) begin to introduce skills and riding habits that don’t necessarily translate directly to safe street riding. HARD braking, trail braking, race lines linking multiple corners, riding in close proximity with other riders, high speeds, getting strong drives out of corners, setting up passes, passing through corners, etc.

Where there is some crossover value to street riding from trackdays though is exploring the upper limits  of modern sport bikes in a controlled environment (to a level that would be extremely dangerous on the street), that will allow you to greatly increase your comfort zone of skill and trust in the equipment (tires,bike, suspension, etc) which means when you are faced with a situation that forces you out of where  you want to be on the street you are prepared to deal with it because you have a HUGE cushion left when you are riding at a typical street pace.

[aschendel]

Lots of falls are "mental" and I believe "the track" does more good things for your brain than bad things.

On a related note, my one beef with the official (original?) "Pace" is the avoidance of "hanging off", which is nothing more than a technique (track style?) used to decrease lean angle.  I suppose it could be viewed as a compromise, especially if used to the extreme, but I think in most cases hanging off increases safety at a given speed, especially if the technique is refined with regular practice.

a.s.

[Hope2Ride]

Mike D, you're right about riding with people like Vince and Lloyd. And believe me, I did, I dragged Vince out on a pretty regular basis. I love to take advantage of riding with both of them not only because they are friends of mine and I enjoy thier company and riding with them but also because I do learn something new every time I'm with them. And I certainly cannot say that about everyone I ride with!

As a newbie who's spent 3 months street riding and 2 full track days at Barber I've been able to use what I've learned at both places. For example, while preparing to corner on the track I would constantly tell myself "look through it, stick your knee out and accelerate out of the turn" all of which I learned while riding with Vince on the street. I told myself that over and over and over and it really helped. I wasn't trying to drag knee, just corner better.

On the track itself I hope to just improve my skills overall. I don't plan to race anyone... yet    I do understand the difference between track and street. I see the track as a "safer" (no traffic,gravel) place to practice cornering and become more familiar with my bike. While at Barber I was able to push myself a little harder than I have on the street which has helped me get a better feel for what my bike is capable of. Anyone who has seen my Barber videos knows I'm not about going faster, I was the slowest one there. But even being the slowest bike out there I had a blast, got a better feel for my baby, and didn't crash, whew!!!

Lloyd you mentioned getting some good reads, what do you recommend?

[Deplorable, thank you!]

I think where these discussions always tend to go sideways is when it becomes street OR track, it's quite possible to do both regularly, enjoyably, and relatively safely. I think they both have merit.

My $.02 on crossover skills from closed course riding: (not meant as an argument or personal attack against anyone!)

DCTC, especially at the lower levels (when people aren’t concerned with going “fast”), is a fantastic way to work on the basics like Body Position, Lines, being smooth with throttle and brake inputs, slowly increasing your comfort level with corner speeds and increased lean angle all in a controlled environment (no gravel, oncoming traffic, etc) that all (minus perhaps the lines) translate well to spirited street riding.

Trackdays (at an actual racetrack) begin to introduce skills and riding habits that don’t necessarily translate directly to safe street riding. HARD braking, trail braking, race lines linking multiple corners, riding in close proximity with other riders, high speeds, getting strong drives out of corners, setting up passes, passing through corners, etc.

Where there is some crossover value to street riding from trackdays though is exploring the upper limits  of modern sport bikes in a controlled environment (to a level that would be extremely dangerous on the street), that will allow you to greatly increase your comfort zone of skill and trust in the equipment (tires,bike, suspension, etc) which means when you are faced with a situation that forces you out of where  you want to be on the street you are prepared to deal with it because you have a HUGE cushion left when you are riding at a typical street pace.

Trackdays of any sort do no equate to a huge cushion on the street as you claim-on the contrary what I see all the time is people who do trackdays routinely somehow equate to thinking suddenly they are fricking an expert and that the fact they can go "fast" on a closed course racetrack that somehow now they have these awesome skills that they have all this room in reserve on the street (or as you put it "huge cushion"). It is a bunch of bullshit and anyone who has been around long enough knows it.

So in the mood of not being a personal attack.........
Not to pick you out-but it is an easy example and you provide almost all the evidence yourself.......
Are you claiming you had some "huge cushion" following Roger in Arkansas when you rode right off the road? Why didn't all your vast skills of the trackdays save you from such a "novice" mistake?
 You clearly fit squarely into the typical stereotype of people that do trackdays-you think you are "fast" and therefore you think that means you are "good".
 Without making this personal, this is strictly for comparison---I ran Barber on a 250 Ninja years ago and ran 11 seconds a lap faster than your fastest lap and you were on a bike that makes 5 times the horsepower.-----You are not fast, despite your bragging of being fast.

Yes there are examples of people who can do trackdays and take something away from them that is beneficial to street riding.
Yes there are examples of people who successfully ride street and track (without riding like an idiot on the street)
Yes it is possible to do both--but the vast majority are adrenaline junkies that can't discern the difference between street smarts and track "fast"

Nowhere do I say it has to be street or track.....I have done plenty of both.

But the vast majority of trackday junkies that I know (likely in the 90%+ range of them). Cannot or will not ride on the street in a manner that isn't mimicking "track riding"--ie. wrong lines for the street, following too close, knee down, using oncoming traffic lanes, hard braking and hard acceleration, riding at or near their limit etc........And to me that certainly isn't "safe" or "controlled" riding-it is them trying to prove they are "fast"

****** here is the edit part, I left the original post stand for clarification *****

My intent with bringing up the incident in Arkansas where Ben ran off the road was merely to question where he comes up with his thought that track riders have "HUGE cushion". Knowing that Ben fancies himself quite the trackday person- it would have stood to reason he would have such "HUGE cushions" on such a typical type of street ride, he would not be subject to such a mistake?

Calling him out for his "bragging" had nothing to do with the videos he has posted, and was unnecessary--I should have simply informed him of that perception by many in a pm. Thus the laptime comparison would not have been needed to be as an example to debunk his bragging of being "fast" either. So regardless of if he fits squarely into the stereotypical trackday junkie or not-it is irrelevant and was not needed to be posted.