riding schools

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Hope;

some of these are better than others, but it is a long winter-you likely will have time to read them all.

STREET STRATEGIES----David L Hough
PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING-----David L Hough
TOTAL CONTROL---------------Lee Parks
TWIST OF THE WRIST (all of them)----Kieth Code
RIDE HARD RIDE SMART---------------Pat Hahn
HOW TO RIDE A MOTORCYCLE--------Pat Hahn
SPORT RIDING TECHNIQUES---------Nick Ianetsch

then of course read "the pace", there are a couple other good ones-but they elude me at the moment.

[Aprilian]

Wow, I have spittle all over my face from reading that last screed, Lloyd.

1) I ride street and track
2) I have crashed once on a closed course 8 years ago
3) I have not crashed on the street since the early 80's
4) I taught MSF in 80's and started teaching advanced riding in the late '00's
4) Some of you are going off stereotypes, 2nd hand opinions and conjecture.   If you are not in a position to have first hand exerience with the courses Hope asked about, well then   STFU

[aschendel]

While that was a strong post, I believe we should be able to comment on the output of the courses, no?

I have seen that many trackday riders choose to ride unsafely on the street, and I believe a lot of the willingness to take risks comes directly from advanced trackday training/experience.

On the otherhand, I believe that track experiences are very valuable and can teach you things you won't ever get out in the wild following friends at a safe distance.

a.s.

[Aprilian]

Very good reading list.  I agree with it.

Hope;

some of these are better than others, but it is a long winter-you likely will have time to read them all.

STREET STRATEGIES----David L Hough
PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING-----David L Hough
TOTAL CONTROL---------------Lee Parks
TWIST OF THE WRIST (all of them)----Kieth Code
RIDE HARD RIDE SMART---------------Pat Hahn
HOW TO RIDE A MOTORCYCLE--------Pat Hahn
SPORT RIDING TECHNIQUES---------Nick Ianetsch

then of course read "the pace", there are a couple other good ones-but they elude me at the moment.

[Greg]

4) Some of you are going off stereotypes, 2nd hand opinions and conjecture.   If you are not in a position to have first hand exerience with the courses Hope asked about, well then   STFU

I'm not. My opinions are based on my first hand experiences that I have seen from 1000's of miles of group riding and the consequences I have seen first hand of some riders having trouble knowing what skills learned on the track actually help on the street.

*edit* 

and just as I don't blame the gun when the owner of said gun misuses the gun to commit a crime, I don't blame track instructors for teaching techniques that work on the track and are then misused by riders on the street.
I do have a problem though in that as there is a financial interest (they're conducting a business people, always remember that) in pushing people to attend track days.
And from first hand testimony I have heard from instructors, one of the biggest "selling points" they push is that the techniques learned on the track will help a rider on the street. And my position (from first hand experiences) is that if not handled properly, track techniques are harmful on the street.

Caveat emptor

[Hope2Ride]

While that was a strong post, I believe we should be able to comment on the output of the courses, no?

I agree, I would like to hear all opinions about attending the courses. And of course, it's a free world!    I enjoy reading the debates on this forum. People actually contribute good information, not just call each other names.

What I am mainly looking for is people who have attended or taught at the schools and what they think of the instructors, ratios, and do they recommend it to others or did they feel it was wasted money.

[Aprilian]

Sorry if i offended anyone.   I think it needs to be said that one of the model riders held up as an example passed me at DCTC on one wheel, outside a passing zone and almost took me out botching the landing.  If that is an example of a good rider, then go for it, let that person teach you how to be good lucky.

[kp]

I agree, I would like to hear all opinions about attending the courses. And of course, it's a free world!    I enjoy reading the debates on this forum. People actually contribute good information, not just call each other names.

What I am mainly looking for is people who have attended or taught at the schools and what they think of the instructors, ratios, and do they recommend it to others or did they feel it was wasted money.

okay, at the very least do HE, first timers price is $50, no better deal on a track day at DCTC. And that includes lunch and a t shirt to boot! Sign up for the women's only group if you do it Hope.

ZARS is great, BUT you need to be pro active. I've found the instructors to be very willing to help, but ya gotta ask sometimes. There's some instructors that are better than others. Based on my own personal experience. And NO, I'll not tell in public.

Steve Bauman's (sp?) riding course is the best at DCTC. IMHO. You all know I love Jess and the ZARS people and atmosphere. But I honestly learned more in one day with Steve than two days with ZARS. Hopefully not because I'm in beg. I'm not there to learn how to be a "go speed racer go-oo", but more about body positioning and technique. I couldn't give a shit less if I'm the slowest one out there. And most likely will always be one of the slowest.

I disagree that what you learn at the track doesn't translate to street. Doing track days gave me more confidence on the street. Not for doing something stupid, but for having the confidence to push myself a bit more than I would have. And I found that it helped more than a few times. When I was on a road trip out west and came upon some things that I hadn't faced in MN or WI my track training came back to me in a heartbeat!


I also have learned a lot just riding with some people. Namely Vince and Martin. Matt Boe is another fav of mine to ride with. They never ever make me feel like I need to hurry up, offer good non threatening advise. And above all, are uber fun to ride with. there's also a lot of people that I won't ride street with. I always rode my own ride even before I knew what that was, and I've gotten some flack for it.


of course this is all my 1.50.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

"If you are not in a position to have first hand experience with the courses Hope asked about, well then   STFU"

That is my first hand experience.

I am not offended that easily Ian.

I think nearly everyone knows who you are referring to as a "good rider" in your example. I have a very short list of riders I ride with who I consider "good riders" and even they are subject to make mistakes in judgement.

What this person rides like on the track or with members of other forums, does not reflect on how they ride with me-if it did-they wouldn't be riding with me and they already know this.

If how aggressive I ride on a track reflected on how I ride on the street I highly doubt anyone would ever ride with me on the street.

My point is--there are people who can be Jekyll and Hyde with there riding on the street vs the track and then there are people who only have one gear...wreckless abandon. I have over 100 customers who do lots of trackdays- I can only think of 5 that I would be willing to ride on the street with, the rest are far too wreckless (at least they were when I rode with them last)

IMO-if you want to learn street strategies and street skills, you are best off doing it on the street. I haven't found a riding course on a track yet that is truly all about street riding-they are all on the street (sans getting past -this is the clutch, here is your "friction zone", this is the brake, this is the throttle, here is how you turn-) An instructor with communication directly to you for real time direction, criticism and advice, following you on the streets where you ride in real world conditions seems to me to be one of the best learning tools for becoming a better street rider.........Right after getting it in your head that safety is first priority and who cares if you are the slowest or fastest...

Of course you should take away from any instruction what you put in for effort....and everyones goals and intentions are different (just what I see in 95% of the cases of the trackday people, is the riders becoming over confident idiots when it comes to street riding.)

[Mike Duluth]

Kim is right in saying that what you learn from the track can help on the street. Just learning the physics of what makes a bike work is very important. There is very little learned from someone who is a good rider who only wants to show you how good they can ride. Don't be afraid to ask what you might think might be stupit questions to find out how things work. Like why is it when you push forward on the inside handle bar does the bike come down and infact you are pushing the handle bar in one direction and the bike goes the other. Start asking questions like this on the forum and see where it goes, see if some of these guys really know what there talkin about.

[carlson_mn]

I have not been to any track day ever.  I'm not sure what I'd get out of it if I went, other than have a lot of fun I'm sure. 

I used to spend weekend afternoons by myself in big hidden parking lots like behind high schools.  I'd go there and practice since they're empty and I could fool around.  I became comfortable touching pegs and getting past that part of me that got spooked when the bike was at certain levels.  I just kept doing that until I felt comfortable and still in control of the bike.  I'd practice panic stops from 60mph and then lean it over and go into a tight turn at 20mph.  I'd practice slowing the bike down with the front brake while leaned over without losing lean angle.  I'd bring some cones and practice swerving and then immediately leaning it over into a turn, and learning what I had to do with my body to make that happen.   I spent a while working on getting the bike to lean and turn to the right as comfortably as I was getting it to the go to the left.  I was more comfortable going into left handers because the throttle hand is offered more control, so I spent a lot of time doing quick actions and leaning it over to the right, and accelerating leaned over. 

Actually, every year I still go and do these things, especially in the spring after being off the bike for months. 

[Jvs]

Another useful thing to do beyond any sponsored advanced riders course is to simply go to a parking lot and working on techniques taught in the MSf classes (emergency braking, tight circles practicing looking as far as you can through turns and slow speed riding-riding as slow as u can without putting ur feet down). These help majorly in the spring time when we're all a little rusty after not riding all winter.


Back on topic, track days/DCTC are very helpful as you can push the boundaries of your riding and when u get back on the street riding at 80%, you still have a couchin for error. Just like a new rider following a pro in the backroads, the new rider will be riding 100% just to keep up and the pro will be on another Sunday cruise.

[Jvs]

 Ya.. What Matt said ha

[Aprilian]

Yep, it would be good if we could have the British style of on road training and on road certification.   MSF has tried this and there is one local instructor I know of, but for some reason, the course hasn't launched to public yet.    Part of the difference between on road and on track instruction is you get to pick who you want to learn from on road, on road is cheaper, there is more riding time but less instruction time.    A drawback is that on-road pairing up sometimes transfers bad info or mis-explains a concept.  For example, a whole generation of riders were taught (on road) not to use their front brakes.   An advantage of a team teaching environment is that sometimes one person can't get the words right for you to grasp a concept and another person steps in and changes the way it is being explained enough that it "clicks".

[Aprilian]

What this person rides like on the track or with members of other forums, does not reflect on how they ride with me-if it did-they wouldn't be riding with me and they already know this.

Then you probably can't predict how they will behave with Hope on a training ride.   You perhaps might PM Hope to tell her of your reservations on that person's judgement.