The Answer to Whether You Can Join a Ride Posted on the Forum

[pkpk]

Kumbaya?

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 Just as an FYI....

You are taking this as a personal assault against you---it isn't. I don't give a shit about you.

This is an assault on a way of thinking and a way of riding. Only has to do with you in the context of your claim that you only run 10 over, when clearly that wasn't the case...

Oh and if you had paid attention-you would have noticed all my quoted text was that of Ray none from you, Matt....

[Ray916MN]

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ON my rides your damn right I will exert my force to its fullest, anyone who doesn't like it should not attend my rides and STFU....you can do the same on your rides.

Yes you do.

But the "club" does have some responsibility and some image and some accountability to how rides are run by its members, despite a few saying......oh "it is what it is"

If you really don't give a shit if people ride like idiots on mn-msta posted rides (or any ride for that matter), then why give a shit if they wear a helmet? Why give a shit if they wear any gear? Why give a shit how they post on the forum? Why give a shit at all? Why provide lip service of trying to make sure everyone is "proficient" and understands and follows all your points you made about "expectations"?

So you believe I really don't give a shit if people ride like idiots on MN-MSTA posted rides? The preceding is like saying, if you are really  against racism, go and hunt Klansmen, and if you aren't hunting Klansmen, then you aren't really against racism. A leap of logic, reasoning and argument if I ever saw one.

We are trying to develop an understanding. We (you might be, but the club is not) are not trying to force anyone to do what we or I might think they need to do.

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It sounds simple-but it goes back to the vast majority of riders overestimate their riding skills. The vast majority don't have a clue what riding under control is. The vast majority don't know what riding within your limits is. The vast majority are unable to actually ride the pace. The vast majority don't know what maintaining safe following distance is, as far too many think a couple bike lengths is more than adequate. The vast majority are unable or unwilling to self navigate...Hell the vast majority would slow way down if they were forced to lead, since the vast majority simply rely solely on the person in front of them to do all their thinking and planning for corner speed, line etc....I believe the most all  MSTA members do agree on what is wreckless, unsafe and idiotic--thus they also agree on what is safe and responsible....

Who are these "vast majority" well it ain't me or about 2 dozen rding enthusiasts I could list off the top of my head-but it is "members" who post up rides, attend rides, ruin rides (then of course the majority of the population of motorcyclists)

So do you want MN-MSTA to be lip service and just some other hack organization like TA , ZG or MNSBR where you say one thing but do another......or do you actually want it to be better?

Is it better than those other forums in your opinion? No long answer accepted, just a simply yes or no please.

Personally, I wouldn't call it better in an absolute sense, I'd simply say it is what I prefer. Others prefer the other forums, everyone has their preferences. Just like everyone has their preferences on how they like to ride. Are my preferences superior to those of others? Should everyone share my preferences and are they idiots for not sharing my preferences? I have enough ego to think this sometimes, but then I have enough humility to check myself and think, who died and made me god?

Sundays ride was against nearly every point you made in your claim of what you expect on MN-MSTA rides......just as a very recent example- There are dozens of examples form last summer too--some even put of video tape evidence of such douchebaggery.

I was on Sunday's ride. I led half the riders on the ride for the entire ride. I didn't observe any "douchbaggery". Implicitly I must have been part of it if there was some, because throughout the day, sometimes the group I was leading was ahead of the other group and sometimes it was the reverse. We caught the other group on the road, they caught us on the road. We must have been going at very nearly the same pace the entire day. I've been on MSTA rides all over the country, and I saw nothing on Sunday's ride that was out of ordinary or inconsistent with any MSTA ride I've been on. At the same time, I'm sure that if I had videotaped my riding and posted it to the forum, any number of "problems" with my riding could have been pointed out, and picked on. My riding was not flawless. Unfortunately it never is.

My only criticism of the Sunday ride would be that in general people followed way too closely. A persistent problem I see on virtually all our rides. Also a persistent problem which I rarely see come home to roost in a bad way. Something for folks to pay attention to and work on, not be indicted for in my book.

I can't make that choice for anyone, but I damn sure will express my displeasure and opinion on it.
 I damn sure won't allow anyone I deem unfsafe or idiotic on any of my rides or to ride with me if I attend someone elses.... And I definitely have that right !

Of course you do. You have the right to even when you weren't there. The question is, when you don't have first hand knowledge, but state strong opinions are you being fair? Are you being credible? Are you being overly critical and judgmental? Are you making informed or uninformed statements? If you weren't on the ride, what informs your statements?

Ray - "If someone rides too fast or irresponsibly in your opinion, feel free to say something to them if you wish and don't ride with them. Keep in mind, just because someone feels someone else rides too fast or irresponsibly, unless the majority feel this way, it is just someones opinion."

Oh I do !!!
 Simply put-I am the most vocal of idiotic riding, furthermore my definition of idiotic is probably the same as most members opinions I give a shit about (as many of them have told me so). SO I am willing to bet you do already have a majority agreeing on what is too fast or irresponsibly, not just my outspoken opinion....

So if we have a majority agreeing on what is too fast or irresponsible, what are we missing? Are we being successful at developing an understanding?

I think we disagree on how to get things to improve. You seem to favor being aggressive and assertive with telling people what in your opinion they are doing wrong. I prefer leading by example and letting people come to their own realizations. My oldest daughter taught me long ago the weakness of being aggressive and assertive as a teaching and influencing approach long ago. I could bully her into doing things, but all that ever taught her was what to do and not to do when I was around.

There is no harm in having 2 ride sections.......one for official MN-MSTA supported rides and one for everything else...Arguing otherwise is just stupid.

The harm in having 2 ride sections is the inconvenience of having to look at two different sub forums to figure out what rides might be going on in a weekend. This would make it much easier for people to miss rides or for people to post conflicting rides. Official MN-MSTA rides are contained in a sticky at the top of the Rides / Get Togethers sub forum and are already clearly labelled as MN-MSTA rides when posted to the sub forum, so what would be the benefit of having 2 ride sections?

[Deplorable, thank you!]

PM sent--but yes I agree that there needs to be an understanding on how rides are run.....
And I thought the statements on such ( read your own ideas of what you expect on mnmsta rides etc)already set that standard, one that isn't really being followed by far too many.

Do I think you don't care----------of course not, you care as much as I do---just our approach is different....Mine much more vocal, known and assertive---yours simply too passive that many don't know what it is?? If it is simply to "lead by example" and "HOPE" eventually people catch on or move on...well I don't think that is very effective.
 But far be it from me to tell you how to run the forum or your rides, unless of course you make statements in which you profess one thing and then give the appearance of not actually meaning what you say??

One word answer to is this forum run better than "those" forums....In a yes or no answer....................no?

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Ray"--The harm in having 2 ride sections is the inconvenience of having to look at two different sub forums to figure out what rides might be going on in a weekend. This would make it much easier for people to miss rides or for people to post conflicting rides. Official MN-MSTA rides are contained in a sticky at the top of the Rides / Get Togethers sub forum and are already clearly labelled as MN-MSTA rides when posted to the sub forum, so what would be the benefit of having 2 ride sections?"

Who cares if there is conflicting rides? It used to be that way and then people have more choices....

The inconvenience excuse....LOL

 The MN-MSTA rides are run differently than "ad-hoc" rides.
The expectations and reality of the two types of rides are completely different as well.
 People who are only interested in MN-MSTA rides-would not be bothered with the hows or whys of the adhoc rides

The "adhoc" ride section would be like the stepchild that nobody talks about. It is there but nobody wants to hear about or read about it... (it is an expression, not how I feel about stepchildren)

Prospective new members would see the "showcase" of mn-msta rides and not the ad-hoc section..which surely would show mn-msta in a better light and garner the members you seek more readily, rather than those who aren't as "proficient" and only looking to go "fast"

And again, what does it hurt to do it? It takes what a few minutes to set up-then let it go and trial it for a season....If I am wrong-you can always revert back to how it is.

It was suggested to me, and I actually do agree as do a few people I brought it up to (hell I already do this with some members when they have asked for my assessment of other "leaders")

You could put a grading system of sorts where we have a standard form that participants of rides can answer questions or make comments about the others on the ride (anonymously if need be). Basically a way for everyone to improve or see what others really view their riding as and certain ride routes or particular roads----I would simply put this only in the MN-MSTA section as the other section is going to be more for those footloose and fancy free, and have that "just ride" attitude.

I am not against others judging me or grading me--go ahead, I appreciate the criticism...

[Ray916MN]

The "adhoc" ride section would be like the stepchild that nobody talks about. It is there but nobody wants to hear about or read about it... (it is an expression, not how I feel about stepchildren)

Fact: Last year and most years, adhoc rides out number official MN-MSTA rides by a significant margin. In a six month riding season there are nominally 48 weekend days of riding. There are typically quite a few adhoc weekday rides which get done every year too. We have 17 official MN-MSTA rides planned this year, between April and November (8 months), the most in over a decade. It is unlikely we will ever have more official MN-MSTA rides than adhoc rides on the forum, simply based on the amount of work it takes to put on an official MN-MSTA ride and the number of weekend riding days in a season.

Activity in an adhoc ride only forum is likely to be significantly greater than in an official MN-MSTA ride only forum. If adhoc rides were separated from official MN-MSTA rides, it is likely the official MN-MSTA ride sub forum would be more like a stepchild to the Adhoc sub forum than vice versa. Posting MN-MSTA rides alongside adhoc rides helps lead by example with respect to what riders should expect from a ride organizer and on a safe ride. When you see MN-MSTA rides with a defined start time, route, route sheets and files, and a lack of "let's rip" rhetoric side by side with adhoc rides without the same level of planning and definition and with let's rip rhetoric, I think it help makes the differences between MN-MSTA rides and some adhoc rides clearer. I'll also say, as much as "let's rip" rides are not my thing, it is clear to me that some MN-MSTA members are okay with them as they go on them.

The inconvenience excuse....LOL

If rides were split into 2 forums, it would be more likely to find an adhoc ride than an official MN-MSTA ride, the official MN-MSTA ride forum would be the inconvenient forum to check, unless MN-MSTA rides were cross posted to the Adhoc sub forum. But if you do this, then what is the point of having two forums?

Prospective new members would see the "showcase" of mn-msta rides and not the ad-hoc section..which surely would show mn-msta in a better light and garner the members you seek more readily, rather than those who aren't as "proficient" and only looking to go "fast"

Retailers "showcase" their highest margin goods on end caps because that is what makes them most visible to customers. Placing MN-MSTA rides, which is the focus and pride of the club away from the place where most rides are setup and discussed would be like a store placing their highest margin goods in a back corner. It is a bad marketing idea. You showcase something by placing it where it is most visible to everyone passing by. You showcase things by placing them in a convenient location, not by placing them in an inconvenient location.

The MN-MSTA rides are run differently than "ad-hoc" rides. 
The expectations and reality of the two types of rides are completely different as well.
 People who are only interested in MN-MSTA rides-would not be bothered with the hows or whys of the adhoc rides

Really? I run my adhoc rides just like I run MN-MSTA rides. Greg seems to run his adhoc rides just like he runs Tri-State Boogie, and I assume your adhoc rides are run pretty much the same way as MN-MSTA rides, or run "better". Matt's ride used a route from an official MN-MSTA ride and I ran my group like I run any group on an MSTA ride. I think Matt did the same. Wouldn't these rides along with more rides tend to give an Adhoc sub forum equal or more credibility and attention than a forum with official MN-MSTA rides only?

Who cares if there is conflicting rides? It used to be that way and then people have more choices....

If rides were separated into two forums, conflicting rides would make it even less important to pay attention to the forum with fewer rides.

And again, what does it hurt to do it? It takes what a few minutes to set up-then let it go and trial it for a season....If I am wrong-you can always revert back to how it is.

It has taken allot to develop the biggest line up of MN-MSTA rides in over a decade. If you're wrong, you're right, I can always revert back to how it is today, and work on lining up a big ride schedule again. There, that was easy, wasn't it?

It was suggested to me, and I actually do agree as do a few people I brought it up to (hell I already do this with some members when they have asked for my assessment of other "leaders")

You could put a grading system of sorts where we have a standard form that participants of rides can answer questions or make comments about the others on the ride (anonymously if need be). Basically a way for everyone to improve or see what others really view their riding as and certain ride routes or particular roads----I would simply put this only in the MN-MSTA section as the other section is going to be more for those footloose and fancy free, and have that "just ride" attitude.

Like an Ebay feedback system? I've never seen one implemented in a forum. Anonymous feedback? Not sure how this can be done and have never seen a successful feedback system which allowed this. Put this stuff (rider rating and feedback, feedback on routes or roads) in the same MN-MSTA section as MN-MSTA rides get posted to, isn't this going to make MN-MSTA rides stand out less and be harder to find?

Have you every seen one? Do you have an example of what you're suggesting so I can see how it works and figure out what it will take to implement it?

I am not against others judging me or grading me--go ahead, I appreciate the criticism...

OK.

[cbreater]

This group ride thing is funny.  I would be willing to bet you all know who you like to ride with and why.  You most likely have phone numbers for each one of them.  If you dont like how the group setting goes and really only want to ride with a certain sub set of riders.......call your buddies on the phone and go for a ride, leave the posting rides off the forum if you dont like who shows up!

Seems pretty simple to me.

[supraman]

This group ride thing is funny.  I would be willing to bet you all know who you like to ride with and why.  You most likely have phone numbers for each one of them.  If you dont like how the group setting goes and really only want to ride with a certain sub set of riders.......call your buddies on the phone and go for a ride, leave the posting rides off the forum if you dont like who shows up!

Seems pretty simple to me.

+1

[gdawgs]

I'm going to chime in.  The strength of this forum is having well run, logistically adept ride leaders that have strong knowledge of the routes.  This deserves respect, along with the time, effort and risks of putting together a ride.   

Forum members enjoy this, and like the ability to join in something already set up.  Some people take riding seriously (as in #1 or #2 priority in their life, others enjoy it as a casual hobby while others have external time constraints). 

Keep it simple and more people will enjoy the routes, the rides, and the forum. 

[aschendel]

This group ride thing is funny.  I would be willing to bet you all know who you like to ride with and why.  You most likely have phone numbers for each one of them.  If you dont like how the group setting goes and really only want to ride with a certain sub set of riders.......call your buddies on the phone and go for a ride, leave the posting rides off the forum if you dont like who shows up!

Seems pretty simple to me.

not if you're the organizer making a dozen or more phone calls / texts / pms during round one (of many) as people try to sync up on the details.  one feature of MNSBR that I have noticed is the PM's are more like private threads (not sure if they are limited to the number of people you can have in them though), that type of arrangement might work for the task at hand.

i do agree that the routes are a major differentiation, as is the age of the core membership, the bikes of choice, and the basic perspective on douchebaggery, and other things i'm sure.  in my opinion we are perhaps losing our advantage on the douchebaggery front.

i have some other philosophy on the topic too, but i'm trying to get my thoughts together before posting up.

a.s.

[pkpk]

Stay tuned, for tomorrow's episode......

Will Lloyd discover that goats do not herd well with sheep?

Will Ray finally cave to his secret desires and start sleeping in the shed with his "Pani".

Will Matt finally realize his Speedo is off?

Will Greg find another bizarre photo of four guys off the intenet  (and tell you how he does it!)

AS THE GROUP RIDE TURNS...........

[Greg]

Stay tuned, for tomorrow's episode......

Will Lloyd discover that goats do not herd well with sheep?

Will Ray finally cave to his secret desires and start sleeping in the shed with his "Pani".

Will Greg find another bizarre photo of four guys off the intenet  (and tell you how he does it!)

AS THE GROUP RIDE TURNS...........

do NOT mock the Gert Jonnys .....

[Aprilian]

1) I sure like spring when the riding starts and the Drama blooms    I had to check if I accidently clicked on the ZG forum.
2) I would classify my comfort as riding with
A) people who I think are riding within control
B) people who are considerate to other road users, other ride participants and residents of the area we ride through
C) people who are not using the road for a cheap racetrack alternative
D) people who value precision over speed.
3) the rating system shows up on SVRider for buying and selling.  It could be titled differently here, but how would you rate someone objectively without a set of agreed standards?
4) Following Distance - the posted videos suck folks.   Only one rider (the lead rider) is actually plotting a line and exercising that part of ride-craft.   The rest of you are following so close that you have no need to pick a line.   Sheesh, drop back a bit and practice your craft, if you want it to be an on-road race, Frickin pass the guy already! If you don't want to do either then it is just a warp-speed parade

[Aprilian]

here is where clicking on the number of feedback links takes you on SVRider

[Chris]

The harm in having 2 ride sections is the inconvenience of having to look at two different sub forums to figure out what rides might be going on in a weekend. This would make it much easier for people to miss rides or for people to post conflicting rides. Official MN-MSTA rides are contained in a sticky at the top of the Rides / Get Togethers sub forum and are already clearly labelled as MN-MSTA rides when posted to the sub forum, so what would be the benefit of having 2 ride sections?

As a forum member, you can subscribe to the forum so you will get an email if a post happens, this makes it easy to "monitor" rides. I think this would be something worth trying, if it does not work it can be undone this is not something that will be life changing and you only get one chance at it in your life.
Maybe setup a poll, no comments no discussion just a yes or no or don't care, the most votes wins then you make the change and its done.
Two rides at the same time is not a big deal it offers choices, choices are good.

Greg i mean steve, that was just funny.