The Answer to Whether You Can Join a Ride Posted on the Forum

[RCKT GRL]

Maybe we can look into utilizing the same sort of idea that the CRA uses for it's newer racers?  It's call "Adopt a Newbie"  Perhaps pairing up a seasoned rider with a newer rider would allow said NEWB to shadow for a ride or two and learn some of the finer aspects of what we strive to be. 

I know that I have at times brought a newer or less experienced rider along with me on some of these rides.  I tend to let them know the details prior to the ride and talk about riding thier own ride and pace.  Oftentimes after the ride, we'll get together and let him/her ask questions and talk about what they thought of the ride and most importantly if they had fun.  I may mention things that I saw that perhaps they wouldn't readily notice themselves and offer some pointers/tips.  I won't hesitate to ask or suggest that we drop back or even leave a certain ride if I feel that the said rider is having difficulties with the pace and/or the conditions.  It's about the safety and comfortabilty of ALL the riders on said ride. 

Of course, I'm by no means an expert, but I know that having someone take an interest in you as a rider is very beneficial,  helps you grow and provides you with a mentor that you are comfortable with.   I know that I appreciated being able to ride with more experienced riders when I first began riding back in the late 80's.  I still do and I think we all can learn something if only we keep an open mind to doing so. 

[Ray916MN]

Typically, what members have done when these people show up on rides is:

- let them go out first and don't follow them as part of their group
- if they are in your group, tell them to pass or get off of your ass
- slow down when leading them to the point they pass before a route change and then do not wait for them at the route change
- not provide mechanical assistance to them in the event they need mechanical assistance
- ignore them socially, with holding the group attention they often seek
- decline to allow these people to be part of riding groups they lead
- decline to show up for rides these people post on the forum

I feel OK doing those things, but where the problem comes up is that I don't feel OK waving my middle finger as I go past a crashed biker.   To me the ultimate warning would be, "You crash and we're not stopping to help you, medical emergency or not!"

The protocol that some members have used in the past is to stop and make sure there is no critical need for medical care and then to simply decline to provide mechanical assistance.

We have also posted in the past on ride listings that since everyone needs to be able to self navigate off a route sheet and have a way to carry a route sheet that participants should not expect group leaders to stop and wait for others at every route change. Without making this stipulation we found the vast majority of riders show up for rides without a means of carrying a route and/or the ability to self navigate off a route sheet. Loosing people by not waiting for them when they disappear off a group is so tempting, particularly when they blow by you at warp speed when you are leading.

[Greg]

Typically, what members have done when these people show up on rides is:

- let them go out first and don't follow them as part of their group
- if they are in your group, tell them to pass or get off of your ass
- slow down when leading them to the point they pass before a route change and then do not wait for them at the route change
- not provide mechanical assistance to them in the event they need mechanical assistance
- ignore them socially, with holding the group attention they often seek
- decline to allow these people to be part of riding groups they lead
- decline to show up for rides these people post on the forum

I feel OK doing those things, but where the problem comes up is that I don't feel OK waving my middle finger as I go past a crashed biker.   To me the ultimate warning would be, "You crash and we're not stopping to help you, medical emergency or not!"

The protocol that some members have used in the past is to stop and make sure there is no critical need for medical care and then to simply decline to provide mechanical assistance.

We have also posted in the past on ride listings that since everyone needs to be able to self navigate off a route sheet and have a way to carry a route sheet that participants should not expect group leaders to stop and wait for others at every route change. Without making this stipulation we found the vast majority of riders show up for rides without a means of carrying a route and/or the ability to self navigate off a route sheet. Loosing people by not waiting for them when they disappear off a group is so tempting, particularly when they blow by you at warp speed when you are leading.

Referencing what's highlighted above. I did exactly this same thing 2 years ago on a multiform ride. I led the first group, Roger led the 2nd and I think Vince lead the 3rd. 2 younger guys in Rogers group wanted to ride a bit faster, so they passed Roger and caught up with my group. As we were descending into Money Creek on Cty Rd 26, one of these 2 guys ran off the road during those nice twisties as you descend into Money Creek, and his buddy target fixated and followed him into the ditch.
   Both bikes were in very rough shape but the riders were OK. Both guys had money and cell phones, so we gave them rides down to that RV park at the bottom of the hill, and left. I had absolutely zero guilt in doing so.

Now if they had been injured, I would have made other choices.

[Ray916MN]

It is hard to turn back the clock and maybe we have told others about this forum to easily and grown to fast. This may of seemed like good idea at the time. I am guilty of this. I have in the past posted rides on other forums. And I know some didn't like it and now we ask that this not be done. I did this I thought to show the others how we ride and to do it safely. They are young and when you get so many of them together at one time they learn nothing. Now if I bring some one I call them and ask them to come but just them. So an invite on a one on one is really the right way to do it and maybe they should stick with you.  They may join latter and maybe not. Some don't care for the long rides, some don't care for the narrow roads, but I think this just comes down to there skill level.
Maybe a few others could chime in and say something and get some more ideas out there. I would like to see some more closed rides. Right now we have one we pay to ride and all others ore just open to what ever. So maybe one that is close to only dues paying but still free to ride and then on from there. Thoughts.

I'm with Vince on the one on one idea, when you get more than one of these hooligans they can make there own competition.

Maybe we can look into utilizing the same sort of idea that the CRA uses for it's newer racers?  It's call "Adopt a Newbie"  Perhaps pairing up a seasoned rider with a newer rider would allow said NEWB to shadow for a ride or two and learn some of the finer aspects of what we strive to be. 

I know that I have at times brought a newer or less experienced rider along with me on some of these rides.  I tend to let them know the details prior to the ride and talk about riding thier own ride and pace.  Oftentimes after the ride, we'll get together and let him/her ask questions and talk about what they thought of the ride and most importantly if they had fun.  I may mention things that I saw that perhaps they wouldn't readily notice themselves and offer some pointers/tips.  I won't hesitate to ask or suggest that we drop back or even leave a certain ride if I feel that the said rider is having difficulties with the pace and/or the conditions.  It's about the safety and comfortabilty of ALL the riders on said ride. 

Of course, I'm by no means an expert, but I know that having someone take an interest in you as a rider is very beneficial,  helps you grow and provides you with a mentor that you are comfortable with.   I know that I appreciated being able to ride with more experienced riders when I first began riding back in the late 80's.  I still do and I think we all can learn something if only we keep an open mind to doing so. 

We no longer cross post rides and we no longer broadly promote the forum/club because the number of new riders all too often overwhelm the number of riders who know what the deal is.

As PKPK (Paul) mentioned that he found out about the group via word of mouth, this is how we expect people to find out about the group today. We also expect that anybody people encourage to come to a ride will be "taken care of" by the person who encourages them to come to a ride and to consider the folks who come to the forum and rides as a reflection of themselves.

Closed rides are always an option and any MN-MSTA member can organize a closed ride with the support of the club. Closed rides can be for dues paying members only, or for dues paying members and their guests with the expectation that a dues paying member will be responsible for taking care of whoever they invite to a closed MN-MSTA ride. There is at this time only one planned closed ride.

The club runs a Member Assistance Partners program at its AMA sanctioned rallies which partners new members with established members to help new member orient to the club. As an event organizer, I can say from experience this is the most difficult program to run at an event. There are always more new members who want to take advantage of the program than there are volunteers to help them. What is worse is I have seen when the people who invite riders to MSTA rides are allowed to be abstracted from the people they invite it is particularly nasty. A member once told me on a ride I needed to take care of someone they invited because they didn't want to ride with them. When you don't tie the people who invite riders to rides to the people who invite them you enable people to do this kind of crap.

While  we try to run MSTA rides in a fairly consistent fashion, there will always be non-MSTA rides which get posted to the forum. These may be rides organized by members or organized by people who think they may be of interest to members. One of things which may not be obvious to people is that the MN-MSTA has no way to control these rides and does not provide support for these rides. Any issues with these rides need to be addressed to and by the organizer(s) of the ride. To state the obvious, when a ride is not labelled an MSTA ride, it is not an MSTA ride.

[Mike Duluth]

I personally think that if it is a group ride, it's a group ride. I think waiting to make sure everyone has made it through the last leg of the ride is very important. I know when we do group rides on sleds at each stop we make sure that everyone is there. If things go wrong for a rider (and they do go wrong) I for one would be pretty pissed if you all just left me lay there to bleed out. These are very dangerous sports we participate in and if you think the most important thing when someone turns up missing is that they can read and follow a route sheet! Come on you guys, if that is truely how you think, again I have picked the wrong people to ride with.
    I'm pretty sure that most of you I ride with on here would not leave another rider behind. For those that would leave a fellow rider behind, I suggest you come riding sleds with us and you will understand the true meaning of group riding.
    I ride with all of you because I want to be part of a group ride. If I wanted to ride my own ride I would ride by myself. I do know what you mean by riding your own ride, but I do ride with all of you because I want to be part of this group.
   

[tk]

Hopefully this post will help folks figure out whether a ride posted on the forum will be appropriate for them to join.

This forum places the onus on riders to be responsible for making sure they are prepared and capable of joining a ride posted on the forum. Over a decade of running group rides, the forum believes that first and foremost ride safety is the responsibility of each rider on a ride, not the group, and not the ride organizer or a ride leader. The default assumption of folks in this forum is if you have an accident is that it was your fault.

Everyone is expected to ride their own ride. This means if people are riding faster or slower than you want to, that's fine. This means you should not follow with a sub 2 second gap so you can follow the line of the rider in front you. No one is expected to keep up. Everyone is expected to have a way of carrying a route sheet and to be capable of using a route sheet to self navigate the ride route. To ride your own ride you should not be totally reliant on keeping up with other riders to ride the ride route.

We ride the Pace (click here to read about it). Hitting triple digits and using heavy braking on rides demonstrate a lack of skill and a good street riding attitude.

The preceding is the default expectation for rides on the forum. Deviations from this default will usually be noted by the organizer of a ride in their ride post. If you have a question about a specific ride, post it to the ride posting. For more on our rides, please read our MSTA Ride Guide - Read Before Doing an MSTA Ride.

I think it is important to note the section I have made bold in Ray's post. This allows deviations from the traditional "pace" ride that MSTA encourages. I enjoy an occasional anti-pace ride (hard acceleration and hard braking). If people want to put these kinds of rides into a separate subforum I have no objection. I don't think it is necessary.

[Chris]

Maybe we can look into utilizing the same sort of idea that the CRA uses for it's newer racers?  It's call "Adopt a Newbie"  Perhaps pairing up a seasoned rider with a newer rider would allow said NEWB to shadow for a ride or two and learn some of the finer aspects of what we strive to be. 

I know that I have at times brought a newer or less experienced rider along with me on some of these rides.  I tend to let them know the details prior to the ride and talk about riding thier own ride and pace.  Oftentimes after the ride, we'll get together and let him/her ask questions and talk about what they thought of the ride and most importantly if they had fun.  I may mention things that I saw that perhaps they wouldn't readily notice themselves and offer some pointers/tips.  I won't hesitate to ask or suggest that we drop back or even leave a certain ride if I feel that the said rider is having difficulties with the pace and/or the conditions.  It's about the safety and comfortabilty of ALL the riders on said ride. 

Of course, I'm by no means an expert, but I know that having someone take an interest in you as a rider is very beneficial,  helps you grow and provides you with a mentor that you are comfortable with.   I know that I appreciated being able to ride with more experienced riders when I first began riding back in the late 80's.  I still do and I think we all can learn something if only we keep an open mind to doing so. 

I like this idea, I think that would solve the issues that have been raised. This would keep two "hooligans" from riding with each other and doing the passing that Greg was talking about. Tell them at the beginning of the ride you follow that bike don't pass that bike, it would also allow for the "mentoring" as D talked about. Thus creating better riders. This would be the ride Leader(s) responsibility to pair the riders up, but I do think this would be a good idea.

[RCKT GRL]

I personally think that if it is a group ride, it's a group ride. I think waiting to make sure everyone has made it through the last leg of the ride is very important. I know when we do group rides on sleds at each stop we make sure that everyone is there. If things go wrong for a rider (and they do go wrong) I for one would be pretty pissed if you all just left me lay there to bleed out. These are very dangerous sports we participate in and if you think the most important thing when someone turns up missing is that they can read and follow a route sheet! Come on you guys, if that is truely how you think, again I have picked the wrong people to ride with.
    I'm pretty sure that most of you I ride with on here would not leave another rider behind. For those that would leave a fellow rider behind, I suggest you come riding sleds with us and you will understand the true meaning of group riding.
    I ride with all of you because I want to be part of a group ride. If I wanted to ride my own ride I would ride by myself. I do know what you mean by riding your own ride, but I do ride with all of you because I want to be part of this group.

I do have to agree with Mike on this... I know that I go on rides because I like the comraderie we share.  I will always make sure that we don't leave anyone behind and oftentimes I'll hang at the back of the pack to ensure that there isn't too much gap between the group and that last person.  I've also been known to go back looking for someone if I notice that they have dropped off the pace.  You never know what could have happened to them.  It's just common courtesy and respect for another fellow rider. 

[Jam-Bro]

I am new to the MN-MSTA, joined last year. The reason I joined was because none of my friends ride and I wanted to meet others that did. Since joining, I have been on 3 rides with members. One was the Swan Ride, where I met  a bunch of riders. There I rode for a long time with Andy, by ourselves, through some awesome roads in WI. At the end, I had a great ride back home from Slippery’s with Andy, Vince, Joel and Marty. On Sat 10Mar, I rode for a short jaunt between Wabasha and Lake City with Denyse, Joel, Vince and Lloyd. It was short but sweet. On Sunday 18Mar, I joined the large group that everyone is talking about here. For 95% of the ride, I followed the group Ray was leading. I did not see anything different from how the 3 rides were ridden. There were comments made by a few of the attendees that they were surprised that no one crashed or that there weren’t any tickets issued.  I believe the context of the comments made about crashing, were aimed more at the condition of the roads than at the speeds of the ride. I estimate that 15% of the roads were covered with sand, making some stretches tricky and dangerous. As for tickets issued, even riding at a moderate pace between 70-80MPH, can get you a ticket on all the roads we rode. We were lucky that there were no cops around.

Again, I am new to the group but I would like to give my .02¢ on this thread’s topic and the sub threads that have crept in it. The op asks whether or not you should join a posted group ride. My belief is that any member wanting to join the posted ride, should be allowed to go. The leader/organizer should then set the tone at the onset. From there, all riders should conform to the stated course and outcome of the ride as per MN-MSTA. The hardest thing for a leader to do is to have to discipline or call an issue to someone’s attention. We expect perfection from ourselves and having to come down hard on someone else is not comfortable, but that is what leadership is all about. If there are any deviants, the leader should ask them to leave the ride or discontinue their unwanted behavior.  I would welcome it if someone corrected me for whatever I was doing wrong, since two the reasons I joined MN-MSTA, was to become a better rider and represent the riding community well.

As per joining MN-MSTA, my humble opinion is that nothing should be changed. Through the forum, I’ve met a decent group of people. If I had to pay first to join, I probably would not have. Why pay for something that might not work for you? Now, after a few rides, I am considering becoming a full paying member in the near future.  Last Sunday was a great ride. Sitting down and eating ice cream with Ray, Rex, Mike Duluth, Vince, Dave and Brent was an awesome way to end the day. I am looking forward to some more rides, so please keep posting them!!!

Jamey

P.S. Thnx to all that have put together and have made what MN-MSTA is today...

[pkpk]

At first, I thought Ray was talking about leaving people to fend for themselves if they deserved it (wads who crash from recklessness or who refuse to learn how to use a route sheet and simply want to follow someone else's tailight.)  If Ray is referring to simply making a route sheet as a policy of "everyone for themselves", then I am in complete disagreement.

I do think there is a certain level of responsibility to each other on a group ride.  I've been on a few rides where the person in the back crashed and if I didn't keep track of them, it would have been a very long afternoon for them.  Same goes for the wad that blows past me, then misses the turn.  I'll sit at the intersection and wait until they come back (usually with their tail between their legs.)   Then it's a matter of having them hook up with a faster group at lunchtime (after the warning that I won't wait for them again).

I go back to my first years riding with the old HSTA.  Yeah, they gave me route sheets.  No, I didn't follow them very good.  I was so lost in some of the areas we were riding, I could have easily run out of gas trying to figure my way out. 

In Ray's defense, I think he is tired of constantly being the leader and is maybe getting a bit jaded.  I still wonder if he wasn't simply referring to asshats who were not going along with the spirit of a group ride.

[Hope2Ride]

Whats the point if I'm gonna be left to self navigate i might as well do my own thing.

Isn't that what MSTA is about....self navigation & riding your own ride?  Unless I'm wrong.
If so please....someone let me know.  I am aware there is a social aspect to it as well.

And a big part of why i joined this forum and don't go on a ZG ride is due to the reputation this forum has for riding safely but still having a good time.

I'll have to sit down when I have an afternoon to kill & read the rest of this but the quotes here made me think of a couple things.

We do ride safe & have a good time but I do agree that maybe there is a need for an additional category.
If you look at other forums they have separate events & rides sections which may help here.

That way if a person wants to post a meet & greet type ride they can do so in the events category.
But if a person wants to spank the ABC's at trip digits it would be posted in the rides category & labeled as such.

I know I haven't read the rest of everything here so sorry if I covered something that was already mentioned.

Perhaps you should read the thread before you comment if you have no idea what's going on....
I was referring specifically about group rides so to say that self navigation and riding my own ride is what its about is a waste of my time to even read your  post. I enjoy the social aspect of group rides and riding with others, if I wanna ride solo I can do that anytime.  also this is not a discussion about seperating rides from events. It's about having a different ride section dedicated to people like you who wanna "spank twisties at trip digits" and those who wanna be safer.

[vince]

We sure talk about a lot of differant things here. I would like to say even if we might hint at it that we never on any ride that I have been on that we left anybody behind, crashed or lost. In fact on one ride a biker went off the road and into a swamp and he wasn't even riding with us. And Lloyd went out into the water and got the bike out and back on the road and got it running for him to ride it home. Now this surely doesn't sound like he or us don't care, we all do. We are just trying to keep crashing to zero. It runes everyone ride. If we keep our safety margin high this is doable.

[Ray916MN]

What you see reading through the last couple of pages of posts is general agreement on what is ideal. The agreement may not be agreement in specifics but it is agreement in concept.

What is not agreed upon is what to do about things when they are not ideal.

For example, we all know that with a stipulation that everyone have a way to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate, anyone should be able to ride at whatever pace they want. They should not be reliant on a leader to show them the way. What experience has shown us is that when we tell people that they need to have a way to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate and also tell them that we will not leave them behind, that we will wait for them at every turn, the vast majority don't bother with having a way to carry a route sheet which they can self navigate from. Experience has shown us that when you make it too easy for people to ride without a route sheet or the ability to self navigate they simply don't carry a route sheet or develop the ability to self navigate.

When we posted rides and up front told people that leaders would not wait at route changes for everyone, attendance on rides dropped and compliance with the stipulation that people carry route sheets and be able to self navigate went up. People took the requirement to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate seriously. On these rides, no one left anyone behind, everyone made sure that everyone showed up at every route change, but had anyone been left behind, I would have expected them to be better prepared to self navigate and to not have blamed anyone else for their situation than themselves.

Realize also that even if a group leader decided that they weren't going to wait for everyone at every route change, that if everyone in the group had a route sheet and was capable of self navigating, that any or all of the followers in the group could just let the group leader ride off by themselves while they waited for the rest of the group. Again the idea at the bottom of all this is to enable everybody to ride their own ride, not to force everybody to ride the same way. Also realize, anyone who wants to take care of people who show up on rides without a way to carry a route sheet or self navigate can do so if they please. No one is stopping them from doing what they think is right.

So let's look at an opposite situation and see what people think should be done. On the ride 2 Sundays ago, one of the participants passed me while I was leading. I'm pretty sure the reason he passed me was he wanted to go faster. A turn on the route came up after a while and I turned. Should we have waited for the guy who passed or not? Did the guy who passed ever make mention to the people in the group that he was sorry for passing everyone when he had no idea where he was going? Do you think the guy will ever pass the leader on a ride again when he has no idea where he is going? Think he'll carry a route sheet in the future and be able to self navigate? The answers to these questions depends to some degree on whether we waited or not.

It is not that we want to say uninviting things like "we won't wait for people at every route change". When we said this, we said this for effect, to get people to pay real attention to the requirement that ride participants carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate off of it. When we didn't say this, we not only got people not carrying route sheets and being able to self navigate, we got people saying we should do a better job of not leaving people behind by providing sweep riders. Saying we won't leave people behind created the notion that not only do people not need to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate, but that organizers needed to do a better job of supporting riders who ignored the requirement to carry a route sheet and be able to self navigate.

Lastly, Democracy does not work for determining what ride organizers and group leaders should do with respect to running rides. Followers always significantly out number leaders and organizers of rides. When asked whether organizers and leaders of rides should do things like wait for everyone at every route change or provide sweep riders or moderate their pace so it is easier for everyone to follow or should make sure do any number of things to make it easier and safer to be a follower, the vote is always going to be biased towards saying the leaders and organizers should do more since there are allot more followers than leaders. Over the past decade, every time the question is put forth to the group whether organizers and leaders should do more for the group, the majority opinion has been the organizers and leaders should do more. I don't think this is the answer, it is just a reflection of the lopsided numbers between organizers, leaders and followers.

Earlier in this thread I asked the question, when a group rides too fast and/or recklessly who is to blame.

If you think the organizers and leaders are to blame, since all of you have self identified yourselves as being capable of self navigating off a route sheet, step up and organize a ride or lead a group. You're capable of it. One of the things I like about riding with MSTA members is almost invariably, any and everyone one of them is capable of leading a group. One of the best things on a group ride is to have someone else in the group decide they want to ride faster, pass and take over leading the group or decide you want to ride faster and pass and take over the group lead. Sometimes someone will pass and begin riding faster and some of a group will go with them and some will not. No big deal, when everyone is riding their own ride, there is no pressure to ride at the same pace. When you ride with a group of people all of whom are capable of leading, you are clearly riding with a group of people who get riding their own ride. It is a wonderful feeling to ride with people like this.

If you are a follower (not ready or capable of leading) and think the followers are to blame, then talk to the other followers about their riding or pick other riding partners. At the very least, vote with your presence in the group. If you think the leaders are to blame, then work on your skills and become capable of being a leader. If you don't like the way a group is riding, leave it.

If you think the responsibility is shared, then do your part as part of the group to keep the group from riding too fast or recklessly.

FWIW

[Jvs]

In fact on one ride a biker went off the road and into a swamp...

Thought you were gonna bring up my decision to attempt a little dual sporting during the frosty pumpkin ride a little while back :p

In order to reduce accidents people just need to know.
They need to know what the pace is like, they need to know what's expected of them as a rider, they need to know what to do and what not to do and they need to know that in the end of the day it's a lot more fun if everyone makes it home safe and sound.

I think a lot of riders come into Msta rides (and any group rides for that matter) not knowing this and thinking that they are invincible. By giving honest expectations and first had experience of rides and riders, a lot of crashes Could be prevented (mine included).

Another possible option (don't flame I'm just trying to contribute) would be to have a private rides section for dues paying members only that is not accessible to the public. By doing this, real speeds could be posted and it would really limit the number of people attending rides. I think this would reduce the problem an also help get more members because I'm sure a lot of people would be willing to pay the few measly dollars a year to get access to these rides.

[Tim...]

The problem with "riding your own ride", is there is no clear definition - what does it mean?  As Paul implied, simply handing a "noob" a route sheet is pointless.  Yes, I can follow a route sheet because I am experienced at doing so, but someone new to group riding puts them in a dangerous position as it takes their concentration away from "keeping up". 

Fuck this elitest crap!