The Answer to Whether You Can Join a Ride Posted on the Forum

[vince]

Ray says it very well. It's very nice to have other leader. Ray and I and some others, I think there was 10 of us went on a trip last summer for 9 or 10 days. Every one took the lead at differant days and times of the day. It just couldn't have went any better. Every time I would lead we would miss the turn. I would have to pull over and explain to the guys that we pass the turn maybe 10 miles back. Now when your riding with others that know what is going on something like this happen. One of the guys has a map out already and says lets go this way and then here and then pick up the route here. Yea. This is why why did more miles and saw more than some others everyday. MSTA guys are great.

[Greg]

The problem with "riding your own ride", is there is no clear definition - what does it mean?  As Paul implied, simply handing a "noob" a route sheet is pointless.  Yes, I can follow a route sheet because I am experienced at doing so, but someone new to group riding puts them in a dangerous position as it takes their concentration away from "keeping up". 

Fuck this elitest crap!

Then offer an alternative, Tim.
Criticizing is so easy.

[Ray916MN]

The problem with "riding your own ride", is there is no clear definition - what does it mean?  As Paul implied, simply handing a "noob" a route sheet is pointless.  Yes, I can follow a route sheet because I am experienced at doing so, but someone new to group riding puts them in a dangerous position as it takes their concentration away from "keeping up". 

Fuck this elitest crap!

From past experience it is clear our rides are not appropriate for noobs. If you're a noob to group riding, but are experienced at riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably not going to have any problems on a ride.

If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.

The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.

If you are a both a noob at group riding and riding twisty technically challenging roads you are really tempting fate on one of our rides.

Just like skiing. It isn't being with a group that presents the greatest challenge to skiers, it is the challenge of skiing ultra steep bumpy slopes. It is not like instructors clear the bunny slope of all skiers so they can instruct students.

When what is expected of riders participating in a ride is made clear and people elect to ignore these expectations they do so at their own peril. The fact that they choose to ignore what is clearly communicated to them is a text book example of what I call a personal problem. There is a point where a ride organizer's responsibility has to end and a ride participant's responsibility has to be held to account.

When you don't understand what someone tells you and you choose to not ask questions or try to find out what they meant, you choose to ignore what they said. As will all things people choose to ignore, they do so at their own peril. Ignorance of a law is not an accepted defense. Ignoring what volunteers who organize rides or lead groups say is not an acceptable excuse.

[Mike Duluth]

I have no problem leading a ride when everyone's in an area none of us knows, or up here where I'm the one that knows the roads. But when I'm down there where you guys know all the roads, I don't care to lead at all. It is way more fun to just stay focused on ridin my bike and not have to worry where we are.

[pkpk]

If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.

The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.

That's not a very inviting attitude Ray.  I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA.    C'mon,  how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding! 

[carlson_mn]

If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.

The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.

That's not a very inviting attitude Ray.  I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA.    C'mon,  how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding! 

I get what Ray was saying.  I only have a year joining and leading on some group rides from this forum, but I fell into the first category he spoke where I have experience on twisty roads but I was newish to group riding beyond riding with a couple close friends.  My first group ride was the Tri-State Boogie last year.... I followed a little too closely and I have gotten better at that.  No one told me I followed too close, I just learned from observing what looked good and bad during the group, and observing those who were the leaders.  Overall I had a GREAT time.

My first 5 years of riding I may have thought I knew what I was doing but I really did not very well.

Years 5-10 I learned a lot about riding and controlling my bike.  As I got more into the sport I spent a lot of time out riding by myself or with one or two friends.  My skills increased quite a bit compared to my first 5 years.  Now on my 14th riding season all I know is that I have much more to learn still than what I have accumulated so far.

If I were to join in with the average 'group' of riders here during my first 5 years I would of either had to ride back aways and felt nervous or pressured to try to keep up, or I would have attempted to keep closer to the others and may have (probably would have) made a bad mistake.  I could have attempted to ride my own ride but not sure if I would have felt comfortable doing that, or I may not have enjoyed riding by myself in the back.  Regardless, people would have been waiting for me or I would have not felt comfortable riding with that group.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think group rides are most enjoyable to me when I am able to ride with a part of the group who are at a similar pace of enjoyable riding.  I do not mind and I typically always wait for the rest of the group to come together at a route change or a stop sign, however, I think riding in WI is funner when you can trust that everyone is capable and able to self-navigate or keep their headlights within your mirrors if they choose to.  I have learned it's easy to lose people within a group.  If I show up to a group ride where I knew the leader would be riding faster than I chose to, I would probably want to see if I had other riders similar to my pace so I could be within a separate grouping.  This way, myself whether as a leader or a follower does not have to be dependent or overly responsible for anyone, nor would I complain later about the pace.  I could ride my own ride and also be within a group.  If one wants to dictate a group's pace, be a leader and advertise your own ride with distinct riding, anyone is welcome to do that I believe. 

[Hope2Ride]

If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.

The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.

That's not a very inviting attitude Ray.  I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA.    C'mon,  how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding! 

+1

Earlier in the thread you said someone like me who can read a route sheet should have no problem attending a group ride but the above statement implies I shouldn't be here at all. You may not like the attitudes on other forums like zg and ta but at least they have always been welcoming to riders of all skill levels. And dues? Why would I pay dues to an organization I am not welcome in? I think I will stick to the old fashioned way of riding with friends by contacting them myself. Screw all these forums.

[Greg]

If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.

The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.

That's not a very inviting attitude Ray.  I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA.    C'mon,  how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding! 

Respectfully Paul .....Because (from first hand experience) no matter how hard the organizer tries to cover all the bases and provide a healthy and fun riding environment, someone invariable complains that :"this or that" just wasn't to their liking.
When was the last open forum ride you organized?

*edit* I do see you have a ride set for November ... and a footnote. My "fun day of riding" is quite different than yours (one is not better than the other, just different)
I like scuffing my 190's clear off the edge of the tire on roads I'm familiar with. How is a rider with different tastes going to like that trying to "keep up"? Just as I don't find it "fun" to trolly around southeastern Minnesota taking pictures there are other riders who don't enjoy the way I (and many others) ride. But if others do like that, great. And ONLY with route sheets and "riding your own ride" can both sets of motorcyclists have a "fun day of riding".

Respectfully

[Greg]

I encourage everyone to come on the Slimy Crud ride in May (or Rogers ride mid April). The Slimy Crud ride usually has 20-30 folks show up. Sportbikes, sport-tourers, dual-sports, mopeds, the whole nine yards.
Riders break up naturally (really, it's a no-brainer when you see how it works) into groups of about 6-8 bikes per group ("riding your own ride" doesn't mean that you are automatically riding alone). The "faster" folks ride together, the sporttourers ride together, the dualsport do, and the mopes.
Everyone has a good day riding. From the kite flying picture takers to the 10% Outlaw 190's.

Everyone, come on this ride. The MSTA system works.

[nOOky]

Ahhh yes the reason I don't run or attend many group rides anymore. The people. The ones that pass the leader when they don't know where the next turn is. The riders out of their element that scare everybody or maybe even crash. The asshats doing wheelies on hwy 35 when everybody else knows it's a continuous speed trap. The Ducati owners that always need a ride home on a Jap bike 
I really miss riding with some of you, zipping along at a good pace and seeing the bikes strung out behind you is always exciting.
Hope to see you out there this year, drive safe all!

[pkpk]

Respectfully Paul .....Because (from first hand experience) no matter how hard the organizer tries to cover all the bases and provide a healthy and fun riding environment, someone invariable complains that :"this or that" just wasn't to their liking.
When was the last open forum ride you organized?

*edit* and a footnote. My "fun day of riding" is quite different than yours (one is not better than the other, just different)
I like scuffing my 190's clear off the edge of the tire on roads I'm familiar with. How is a rider with different tastes going to like that? Just as I don't find it "fun" to trolly around southeastern Minnesota taking pictures. But if others do like that, great. And ONLY with route sheets and "riding your own ride" can both sets of motorcyclists have a "fun day of riding".

Respectfully

Appreciate the respectful response Greg. 

I have organized a late season ride for several years (Die Hard and Turkey Ride.)  It should be on the calendar for this year.  But as Lloyd once pointed out, I'm not going to get many newbies on a ride that requires electrics.    In the old MN-Sportbike days, I would convert the route sheets to GPS routes by the next morning.  Not to mention, creating 25-30 routes and posting them to MN-Sportbike (they should still be there.)   I'd like to think that is participation above most that allows some opinion on rides and routes.

Here's the rub.  "Back in the day" (before the internet), we had all sorts of skill levels show up for a ride.   There was no talk of ride difficulty or expectations of skill level.  You simply rode with those whom you were familiar or those who didn't want to fry their tires.  You worked this out in the parking lot or breakfast table.  We somehow wound up showing up for lunch  around the same time and often met up at gas stops.  I just don't recall a huge amount of drama over speed disparity or route sheet interpretation.  I dunno, maybe it was due to a wide variety of bikes that showed up.  There wasn't a large number of performance machines showing up back then.

You said the basic theme, "riding your own ride".  My point is Ray is sending a message that the "fun day" involves mostly fast riding only, slow riders need not bother.  Just because a route is twisty doesn't mean the majority of slower riders can't navigate them at their own pace.  Oh...and yes, we need to bring back that old Kite Flying Ride that Hamilton used to hold.

[pkpk]

I get what Ray was saying.  I only have a year joining and leading on some group rides from this forum, but I fell into the first category he spoke where I have experience on twisty roads but I was newish to group riding beyond riding with a couple close friends.  My first group ride was the Tri-State Boogie last year.... I followed a little too closely and I have gotten better at that.  No one told me I followed too close, I just learned from observing what looked good and bad during the group, and observing those who were the leaders.  Overall I had a GREAT time.

Well I'm confused what you are saying Matt.  Are you saying you maybe should not have been on the ride?  But you had a GREAT time!   

[Greg]

Respectfully Paul .....Because (from first hand experience) no matter how hard the organizer tries to cover all the bases and provide a healthy and fun riding environment, someone invariable complains that :"this or that" just wasn't to their liking.
When was the last open forum ride you organized?

*edit* and a footnote. My "fun day of riding" is quite different than yours (one is not better than the other, just different)
I like scuffing my 190's clear off the edge of the tire on roads I'm familiar with. How is a rider with different tastes going to like that? Just as I don't find it "fun" to trolly around southeastern Minnesota taking pictures. But if others do like that, great. And ONLY with route sheets and "riding your own ride" can both sets of motorcyclists have a "fun day of riding".

Respectfully

Appreciate the respectful response Greg. 

I have organized a late season ride for several years (Die Hard and Turkey Ride.)  It should be on the calendar for this year.  But as Lloyd once pointed out, I'm not going to get many newbies on a ride that requires electrics.    In the old MN-Sportbike days, I would convert the route sheets to GPS routes by the next morning.  Not to mention, creating 25-30 routes and posting them to MN-Sportbike (they should still be there.)   I'd like to think that is participation above most that allows some opinion on rides and routes.

Here's the rub.  "Back in the day" (before the internet), we had all sorts of skill levels show up for a ride.   There was no talk of ride difficulty or expectations of skill level.  You simply rode with those whom you were familiar or those who didn't want to fry their tires.  You worked this out in the parking lot or breakfast table.  We somehow wound up showing up for lunch  around the same time and often met up at gas stops. I just don't recall a huge amount of drama over speed disparity or route sheet interpretation.  I dunno, maybe it was due to a wide variety of bikes that showed up.  There wasn't a large number of performance machines showing up back then.

You said the basic theme, "riding your own ride".  My point is Ray is sending a message that the "fun day" involves mostly fast riding only, slow riders need not bother.  Just because a route is twisty doesn't mean the majority of slower riders can't navigate them at their own pace.  Oh...and yes, we need to bring back that old Kite Flying Ride that Hamilton used to hold.

I suspect that the highlighted items above (which both are new to the scenario) are due to the fact that the internet is now in the mix and scores more people (and opinions on what a "great day of riding" is) are showing up..... *which IMO is a good thing*

[carlson_mn]

I get what Ray was saying.  I only have a year joining and leading on some group rides from this forum, but I fell into the first category he spoke where I have experience on twisty roads but I was newish to group riding beyond riding with a couple close friends.  My first group ride was the Tri-State Boogie last year.... I followed a little too closely and I have gotten better at that.  No one told me I followed too close, I just learned from observing what looked good and bad during the group, and observing those who were the leaders.  Overall I had a GREAT time.

Well I'm confused what you are saying Matt.  Are you saying you maybe should not have been on the ride?  But you had a GREAT time!   

No, and yes I had a great time.    This is what I was referencing from Ray...

If you're a noob to group riding, but are experienced at riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably not going to have any problems on a ride.

[Plus_P]

A few thoughts, which can be discredited, due to my noob status (I probably ought to put a piece of yellow tape on the back of my helmet, not that there'll be anyone behind me to see it ), but I'll throw them out there, as I do have some other experiences with group dynamics, and these ideas have been inspired as I have followed this thread. I'll also say up front that I don't care for "rules" or layers of admin, but without some order no organization survives. Selfishly, I want MN-MSTA to survive, without burning out its current or future leaders, as I am certain I have stumbled on the right group for me. I'd hate to see all the group knowledge that exists here decide to throw in the towel, and then have future ST riders have to re-learn lots of what already does work here. So I'll offer them up, maybe there is something useful or can lead to a better idea tucked in there somewhere:
Level 1 (Open) rides. For riders with limited previous exposure to Group Rides and/or Route navigation (like me!), or existing members who just prefer an easier pace, somewhat tighter groups. Shorter rides, couple hours maybe. Closer to town. Definite rider expectations are laid out. Introduce us noobs to route sheets, GPS and other preperation steps needed for proper touring. I can already imagine that recruiting ride leaders for this may be a challenge, as it (likely) wouldn't be as enjoyable as full touring rides, but hopefully as new riders become old riders, they are inspired to pay-it-backwards.
Next idea is to have new riders (maybe some legacy members too?) do a solo navigation route. More like a rallye, NOT a race, follow the route sheet, for a timed 60 minute (or whatever) loop par time. This could even be done in town (Tour of the Lakes?). Could do multiple riders at one time, with 2 minute staggered departures. Possibly, this could even be done on an "honor" system. I truly think I would do some in/around town route-sheet practice rides. Maybe have some not-very-direct-route sheets to Leo's South through Prior Lake or Bob's Cycle Supply via Como Park? This "check-ride" can graduate a rider to the next level...
Level 2 (Open or Closed?). Other than the ride organizer specifying the usual stuff, there is one stipulation: EVERY rider on the ride will be the leader for a minimum (20 mile?) stint. This will give everyone a taste of what that "privilege" truly feels like, and ensures that they give some thought to being prepared to be more than a "follower", which inherently better prepares everyone to truly ride-your-own-ride®.
Finally, Level 3. Organizers Call.
Maybe some/all of these have already been tried, either here, or one of the other MSTA chapters? Dunno, haven't been around long enough yet to know. But again, just throwing it out there for wiser minds to digest, all in the interest of group self-preservation. Hope it helps.
+Wade