The Answer to Whether You Can Join a Ride Posted on the Forum

[Ray916MN]

If you're an old hand at group rides and noob to riding really twisty technically challenging roads, you're probably going to be screwed.

The problem is generally not the group riding aspect of the rides, the problem is generally from riding roads that are well beyond a rider's experience and skill set.

That's not a very inviting attitude Ray.  I'm sure glad Howard Steiger, Dave Hamilton or Denny Sullivan didn't dissuade riders with that sort of talk back when they ran the MN-HSTA.    C'mon,  how about just having riders show up to have a fun day of riding! 

This is a by product of having a Minnesota rider go to STAR a week after they got their MC license. As you may or may not recollect although the rider went to the event with a half dozen 'friends" and their spouse. none of them were willing to ride with the person. This duty was left up to a volunteer (ex club president who is known for never losing anyone) at the event who somehow lost the rider. When another club member happened upon the rider on the route and volunteered to lead them to the lunch stop, but told the rider that they should just ride back to the event hotel the rider was deeply angered and offended. The rider felt the club should have taken better care of her as a member, should have been more accommodating of new riders. As an event organizer I can tell you it is pretty much impossible to convince someone who rides hundreds of miles to an event to spend their day taking care of a new rider trying to ride challenging roads in an area they have never been in. I can also tell you, I have a real problem with people bringing people they are not willing to ride with to rides, with the idea it is someone else's responsibility to take care of them.   

This is a by product of having a new rider with so little skill show up at TWiSTAR with a bunch of Minnesotans. The new rider rode so poorly he almost fell over in a tight turn on the way to the event because he failed to maintain enough speed in the corner to keep himself upright. The person who invited him didn't want to ride with him and I had to use up a chit with some other members to get them to take care of him.

Then there was the open ride where I led a group of riders who thought they were fairly experienced to the lunch stop. The rider who crashed behind me on an uphill sand covered turn which I went through at about 10-15 mph wasn't hurt. At lunch he decided to ride home. His comment to me when he said he was leaving was even though he knew the roads were the equivalent of triple black diamond roads and not appropriate for new riders, he had no idea such challenging roads existed. He was leaving because he realized it was not a good idea for him to be riding on these roads with his limited amount of experience.

I'm a realist. The MN-MSTA is not prepared, nor capable of supporting riders without sufficient experience or skill on our current ride schedule. I will not mislead new riders and place them in jeopardy by suggesting we are prepared and capable of supporting inexperienced riders on our rides. Inviting a new skier fresh off the bunny slope to go down a triple back diamond run isn't nice. It is dangerous and irresponsible.

Encouraging people to come on rides where they have a significant potential to crash or dumping people you personally don't want to ride with on volunteers is neither inviting nor productive and certainly not very fun.

Of course when Howard, Dave and Dennis ran the group there were a significant number of rides run by members on much less challenging roads. The ride schedule as it sits today is not appropriate for new riders. I would think even your Black Friday ride isn't appropriate for new riders who are not likely to be properly geared or familiar with riding in the cold temps, on cold roads with a low sun on the horizon present at the end of November. If you think it is appropriate, I can change the way it is listed and promote it as suitable for new riders.

If it isn't appropriate for new riders maybe you should organize and lead a ride which can accommodate new riders. I'll also encourage you to volunteer as a MAP at TWiSTAR. I have been doing this in addition to organizing the event for the past 6 years, I do not have any other volunteers to do this at TWiSTAR this year and you have never volunteered to do this. It is disingenuous to suggest to others that they do things that you yourself are unwilling to do, right?

I think I will show up for a ride and have fun, when all the people who show up for the ride do not have any expectation that I will do something for them or have any ideas of about what else I can do for them.

[Ray916MN]

You said the basic theme, "riding your own ride".  My point is Ray is sending a message that the "fun day" involves mostly fast riding only, slow riders need not bother.  Just because a route is twisty doesn't mean the majority of slower riders can't navigate them at their own pace.  Oh...and yes, we need to bring back that old Kite Flying Ride that Hamilton used to hold.

Actually you'll notice there is no reference to speed anywhere, except where triple digit speeds are discouraged. The issue is not speed. It is riding triple black diamond roads and inexperience.

Slow or fast isn't the issue. Experience and skill is the issue. That's why the disclaimer is not appropriate for inexperienced riders as opposed to not appropriate for slow riders. 

If you queried the folks about their comments about no one crashing on the ride two Sundays ago, I'll bet you'll find out that high speeds was not the reason for their comments about no one crashing, it was the tight downhill off camber switchback turns which were completely covered with sand which caused the comments. These types of roads under these conditions are challenging even for experienced riders and certainly are not suitable for new riders.

Blank Hill road, a frequently routed road is typically not appropriate for inexperienced riders. We have had riders turn around on   dirt roads that have been occasionally routed on rides because they were not comfortable enough to handle riding on these roads.

You seem to be making the assumption that slow and inexperienced are synonymous. They are not.

Show me where I characterized an MN-MSTA ride as not appropriate for slow riders and I'll pay you $100.

[pkpk]

If it isn't appropriate for new riders maybe you should organize and lead a ride which can accommodate new riders. I'll also encourage you to volunteer as a MAP at TWiSTAR. I have been doing this in addition to organizing the event for the past 6 years, I do not have any other volunteers to do this at TWiSTAR this year and you have never volunteered to do this. It is disingenuous to suggest to others that they do things that you yourself are unwilling to do, right?

I had a bunch of stuff to say but decided it's just not worth the back and forth.  I've volunteered to lead the slow group on our local rides plenty of times.  I figure that gives me some license to voice an opinion about our group rides.  Note that I did not argue or disagree for the majority of the thread until you made the statement about slow riders and twisties being screwed.  I can understand how you got to this point with your experiences of brand new riders.  I just want to caution you about making a tone that sounds like this organization is strictly for a certain style of rider on a certain style of bike.  Lest I sound like I am bagging strictly on you, I also caution Lloyd about fostering an environment of a military Drill Sargent who makes people feel bad when they wanted to simply enjoy a fun day of riding.  But overall, I want to make the point that this is really getting all too complicated compared to...uh oh....here it comes....BACK IN THE DAY. 

[Deplorable, thank you!]

Paul---I by no means am suggesting some military drill and punsishment system (although I hear Hope is good with a paddle)............but stupidity (and we all know what that is, and the people I give two shits about, including you Paul agree on what it is) People should enjoy a day of riding---but riding smart and safely. triple digits is never smart nor is it ever safe (for those---take it to the track) * and yes I have ridden triple digits, duh.....But I chose not to for 99.9% of my riding

I love, absolutely love that you set a ride pace a little different that Ray,greg, Vince, or myself....Chris Wiswell does this too (although he has and can join the other groups.)
I love that your rides are a bit different--I absolutely am in support of that...regardless if you want to call them "slow" or not.....

I am starting a new thread...............True and accurate leaders paces, as seen by me...

go find it, in the rides section-so not every Tom Dick and Harry is viewing it !

It surely will give many a much better and more accurate representation of what I have experienced with each of the ride leaders.....even though my 20 sub category spoof was pretty damn accurate--this will have more details.

We need a variety of paces and a variety of rides.........but I do also think we need a cap on idiotic riding behavior....And IMO if anyone is ridng faster than Rays typical pace....You are riding far too fast for the roads we travel and that my friend is far too wreckless and dangerous. For those people---go ride with TA/ZG where that is the common practice.....We are better-we should stand up and show we are

I have not seen a single person on any ride who has the skills to be running a consistent 90+ on the typical ride routes Ray or myself put on.(especially mid march)
 A certain guy featured on the cover page may well be the best street rider on this forum and I highly doubt he is out running around at 90+ on his way down to Mindoro. I have riiden with him on many occassions and I do not see him crossing the centerline, slamming on the brakes or running trips. While I do not know of any hosted rides by him...I do believe he would put on an awesome ride (nudge, nudge)

[Deplorable, thank you!]

 I am informed and mostly agree;

This forum is for MSTA members, it is a Minnesota sub chapter of an AMA sanctioned MSTA.

As such, pretty much all MSTA members have the right and obligation to stand up and speak freely on anything they like, don't like or want/need changed.

Everyone else has no rights !

You are simply here at the will of the real members. So if the real 50ish members decide on change and you "others" don't like it, well too bad.



Now I am not saying that I personally don't care about your opinion or thoughts (okay a few of you I don't) or that I want all (some definitely) the "non members" to leave. But I am saying if you are not willing to step up and actually take some fricking responsibilty and do a more active part in running the rides....well then you have little to have a say so in.
1) create your own group within the group on rides
2) organize a ride
3) offer help or whatever for rides and other events

Do more you'll get more.


I am told I am doing so much for the forum that I am blocking out the sun....So much so that many simply sit back and ride my coat tails on issues.....Well here you guys go--

And for the 18 people that have been pming and emailing me on this one issue........Show your real support by--calling Ray, email Ray, send Roger (stinger), Ray (Ray916Mn)or Tony(tk) - you know, the forum leaders your complaints and suggestions via PM.....Or simply post them up,,,,,,,,Stand up and take a stand, offer a solution or something ---Do something that actually benefits the club or truly shows your support for an idea.
( ps.. I love you all---but I have work to do that does not revolve around making the forum better 24/7....I fight on my own behalf, thank you for your behind the scenes support. Now show more in front of the action.)

*I see a few of you have stood up and been accounted for---I appreciate it.*

[Deplorable, thank you!]

"Show me where I characterized an MN-MSTA ride as not appropriate for slow riders and I'll pay you $100."


Everyone on the forum is searching your every post, reliving your every commnet on a ride.....lol


Truth be told though.............The way the rides are run now---they are not appropriate for "slow" riders...regardless of their experience.

UNtil and unless many take up self responsibility and actually split groups further into more sub groups on rides and more diversity of rides ( easier routes, shorter routes, slower paces etc...)......"SLOW" ( by choice or by experience level)riders will never fit in..

Just my observation

[Deplorable, thank you!]

There goes 2 1/2 more hours of my life I should have spent being productive for myself instead of for the forum.....

I hate that when days later I find mistakes....lol  "spent"

[Aprilian]

There goes 2 1/2 more hours of my life I should have being productive for myself instead of for the forum.....

That will teach you to procrastinate!

[aschendel]

(I think this post might have fit into that locked (deleted?) thread about "forcing" others to ride a certain way.)

I was thinking on my ride into work today about the "Ride Your Own Ride" mantra and the recent discussion about organizers and/or fellow group members being too outspoken or judgemental about others in the group, people being scared to make a honest mistake or two in a full day of riding, etc...  It seems to me that the forum's current "understanding" of "Ride Your Own Ride" is very "me"-centric (duh).  Let's say "follower-centric", since that's the spirit of what has been stated by Ray and others who have the most support.  It's subtle (which means you should read that paragraph again and make sure you get it before getting bent out of shape below), but I think this highlights a very important gap that I think Lloyd is working to close.

How does this follower-centric attitude work for the organizer?  Can followers judge people who organize rides and in effect (via public complaints) force their version of Ride Your Own Ride onto group events?  Too long, too short, too fast, too slow, too many stops, not enough stops, not enough socializing, too easy, too hard, etc. etc. etc.  If so, essentially, I think we're putting the burden and "control" on the wrong parties.  People that join an organizer's ride should be prepared to ride that organizer's ride, or something very close to it, or be willing and able to leave the ride clearly understanding that it was not the organizer's "fault" that they couldn't complete it.  Some rides are going to be not well-suited for certain riders, and that is really nobody's fault and actually not even a problem; until people complain that some organizer wouldn't let them "ride my own ride".  Ray made this point clearly in the opening post of this thread before it wandered off the rails into a game of "what if" and being surprised that Lloyd speaks his mind.

One other point that some people may miss is that "you" riding your own ride never automatically means that an organizer want you to do that on their ride.  If "your ride" sucks, or differs from the stated goals in  the organizer's or really anyone else's estimation and you therefore are affecting anyone else's ride, of course there will be tension.  People judge, that's how we survive, and that's not the problem.  Join rides you fit in with, figure out what to change to fit in and make it happen if you don't, organize your own rides, or ride solo -- it's not rocket science.

So, I really want to know what recourse does the forum grant the organizer and/or concerned followers when a person riding their own ride doesn't fit with the assembled group?  We know Lloyd will throw you out, others might leave you at a turn you missed or broke down/in a ditch if you're not hurt and most of us will suck it up and live with you to the end of the ride.  What about when people don't get the message and keep joining groups they don't fit into?

This might be a bit "deep" (or more likely poorly communicated), take some time to think about it...  then try a few groups out while keeping most (all?) of your ideas to yourself and see if you can find a group you like.  If you hit a ride that REALLY doesn't suit you (or an organizer that REALLY doesn't like your riding), act like an adult, inform the group that you are leaving and take off.  If you find a group that's a near-fit and enjoy their company, spend some time getting to know the people in real life and maybe there will be a chance for you to suggest a tweak or two to the way the rides are run, or even better, invite them on a ride you run.

a.s.

p.s. that Tension could be avoided by exactly what many people have been talking about recently; accurate ride postings by leaders, accurate self-assesment by potential followers, new leaders stepping up with new types of rides/routes, extending and accepting constructive criticism as needed, etc., things I hope the forum as a whole is moving forward on.   Also of note, in spite of what we say online, it appears that we basically all agree on all of these points that everyone has been trying to make in various posts / threads, etc.

[Tim...]

Last time I checked, this is an open forum and always has been - no exclusivity to MNSTA members beyond closed MNSTA only rides.  You think your opinion counts more because you are a paying member?  Get a grip, this is not what this forum is all about.

I am informed and mostly agree;

This forum is for MSTA members, it is a Minnesota sub chapter of an AMA sanctioned MSTA.

As such, pretty much all MSTA members have the right and obligation to stand up and speak freely on anything they like, don't like or want/need changed.

Everyone else has no rights !

You are simply here at the will of the real members. So if the real 50ish members decide on change and you "others" don't like it, well too bad.



Now I am not saying that I personally don't care about your opinion or thoughts (okay a few of you I don't) or that I want all (some definitely) the "non members" to leave. But I am saying if you are not willing to step up and actually take some fricking responsibilty and do a more active part in running the rides....well then you have little to have a say so in.
1) create your own group within the group on rides
2) organize a ride
3) offer help or whatever for rides and other events

Do more you'll get more.


I am told I am doing so much for the forum that I am blocking out the sun....So much so that many simply sit back and ride my coat tails on issues.....Well here you guys go--

And for the 18 people that have been pming and emailing me on this one issue........Show your real support by--calling Ray, email Ray, send Roger (stinger), Ray (Ray916Mn)or Tony(tk) - you know, the forum leaders your complaints and suggestions via PM.....Or simply post them up,,,,,,,,Stand up and take a stand, offer a solution or something ---Do something that actually benefits the club or truly shows your support for an idea.
( ps.. I love you all---but I have work to do that does not revolve around making the forum better 24/7....I fight on my own behalf, thank you for your behind the scenes support. Now show more in front of the action.)

*I see a few of you have stood up and been accounted for---I appreciate it.*

[tk]

"A certain guy featured on the cover page may well be the best street rider on this forum and I highly doubt he is out running around at 90+ on his way down to Mindoro. I have riiden with him on many occassions and I do not see him crossing the centerline, slamming on the brakes or running trips. While I do not know of any hosted rides by him...I do believe he would put on an awesome ride (nudge, nudge)"

Just to set the record straight, this guy did organize an MSTA ride. It was awesome.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

(I think this post might have fit into that locked (deleted?) thread about "forcing" others to ride a certain way.)

I was thinking on my ride into work today about the "Ride Your Own Ride" mantra and the recent discussion about organizers and/or fellow group members being too outspoken or judgemental about others in the group, people being scared to make a honest mistake or two in a full day of riding, etc...  It seems to me that the forum's current "understanding" of "Ride Your Own Ride" is very "me"-centric (duh).  Let's say "follower-centric", since that's the spirit of what has been stated by Ray and others who have the most support.  It's subtle (which means you should read that paragraph again and make sure you get it before getting bent out of shape below), but I think this highlights a very important gap that I think Lloyd is working to close.

How does this follower-centric attitude work for the organizer?  Can followers judge people who organize rides and in effect (via public complaints) force their version of Ride Your Own Ride onto group events?  Too long, too short, too fast, too slow, too many stops, not enough stops, not enough socializing, too easy, too hard, etc. etc. etc.  If so, essentially, I think we're putting the burden and "control" on the wrong parties.  People that join an organizer's ride should be prepared to ride that organizer's ride, or something very close to it, or be willing and able to leave the ride clearly understanding that it was not the organizer's "fault" that they couldn't complete it.  Some rides are going to be not well-suited for certain riders, and that is really nobody's fault and actually not even a problem; until people complain that some organizer wouldn't let them "ride my own ride".  Ray made this point clearly in the opening post of this thread before it wandered off the rails into a game of "what if" and being surprised that Lloyd speaks his mind.

One other point that some people may miss is that "you" riding your own ride never automatically means that an organizer want you to do that on their ride.  If "your ride" sucks, or differs from the stated goals in  the organizer's or really anyone else's estimation and you therefore are affecting anyone else's ride, of course there will be tension.  People judge, that's how we survive, and that's not the problem.  Join rides you fit in with, figure out what to change to fit in and make it happen if you don't, organize your own rides, or ride solo -- it's not rocket science.

So, I really want to know what recourse does the forum grant the organizer and/or concerned followers when a person riding their own ride doesn't fit with the assembled group?  We know Lloyd will throw you out, others might leave you at a turn you missed or broke down/in a ditch if you're not hurt and most of us will suck it up and live with you to the end of the ride.  What about when people don't get the message and keep joining groups they don't fit into?

This might be a bit "deep" (or more likely poorly communicated), take some time to think about it...  then try a few groups out while keeping most (all?) of your ideas to yourself and see if you can find a group you like.  If you hit a ride that REALLY doesn't suit you (or an organizer that REALLY doesn't like your riding), act like an adult, inform the group that you are leaving and take off.  If you find a group that's a near-fit and enjoy their company, spend some time getting to know the people in real life and maybe there will be a chance for you to suggest a tweak or two to the way the rides are run, or even better, invite them on a ride you run.

a.s.

p.s. that Tension could be avoided by exactly what many people have been talking about recently; accurate ride postings by leaders, accurate self-assesment by potential followers, new leaders stepping up with new types of rides/routes, extending and accepting constructive criticism as needed, etc., things I hope the forum as a whole is moving forward on.   Also of note, in spite of what we say online, it appears that we basically all agree on all of these points that everyone has been trying to make in various posts / threads, etc.

[Deplorable, thank you!]

(I think this post might have fit into that locked (deleted?) thread about "forcing" others to ride a certain way.)

I was thinking on my ride into work today about the "Ride Your Own Ride" mantra and the recent discussion about organizers and/or fellow group members being too outspoken or judgemental about others in the group, people being scared to make a honest mistake or two in a full day of riding, etc...  It seems to me that the forum's current "understanding" of "Ride Your Own Ride" is very "me"-centric (duh).  Let's say "follower-centric", since that's the spirit of what has been stated by Ray and others who have the most support.  It's subtle (which means you should read that paragraph again and make sure you get it before getting bent out of shape below), but I think this highlights a very important gap that I think Lloyd is working to close.

How does this follower-centric attitude work for the organizer?  Can followers judge people who organize rides and in effect (via public complaints) force their version of Ride Your Own Ride onto group events?  Too long, too short, too fast, too slow, too many stops, not enough stops, not enough socializing, too easy, too hard, etc. etc. etc.  If so, essentially, I think we're putting the burden and "control" on the wrong parties.  People that join an organizer's ride should be prepared to ride that organizer's ride, or something very close to it, or be willing and able to leave the ride clearly understanding that it was not the organizer's "fault" that they couldn't complete it.  Some rides are going to be not well-suited for certain riders, and that is really nobody's fault and actually not even a problem; until people complain that some organizer wouldn't let them "ride my own ride".  Ray made this point clearly in the opening post of this thread before it wandered off the rails into a game of "what if" and being surprised that Lloyd speaks his mind.

One other point that some people may miss is that "you" riding your own ride never automatically means that an organizer want you to do that on their ride.  If "your ride" sucks, or differs from the stated goals in  the organizer's or really anyone else's estimation and you therefore are affecting anyone else's ride, of course there will be tension.  People judge, that's how we survive, and that's not the problem.  Join rides you fit in with, figure out what to change to fit in and make it happen if you don't, organize your own rides, or ride solo -- it's not rocket science.

So, I really want to know what recourse does the forum grant the organizer and/or concerned followers when a person riding their own ride doesn't fit with the assembled group?  We know Lloyd will throw you out, others might leave you at a turn you missed or broke down/in a ditch if you're not hurt and most of us will suck it up and live with you to the end of the ride.  What about when people don't get the message and keep joining groups they don't fit into?

This might be a bit "deep" (or more likely poorly communicated), take some time to think about it...  then try a few groups out while keeping most (all?) of your ideas to yourself and see if you can find a group you like.  If you hit a ride that REALLY doesn't suit you (or an organizer that REALLY doesn't like your riding), act like an adult, inform the group that you are leaving and take off.  If you find a group that's a near-fit and enjoy their company, spend some time getting to know the people in real life and maybe there will be a chance for you to suggest a tweak or two to the way the rides are run, or even better, invite them on a ride you run.

a.s.

p.s. that Tension could be avoided by exactly what many people have been talking about recently; accurate ride postings by leaders, accurate self-assesment by potential followers, new leaders stepping up with new types of rides/routes, extending and accepting constructive criticism as needed, etc., things I hope the forum as a whole is moving forward on.   Also of note, in spite of what we say online, it appears that we basically all agree on all of these points that everyone has been trying to make in various posts / threads, etc.

[Tim...]

^ is there a point you are trying to make beyond quoting the same reply twice?

[Tim...]

Larry organizes a ride, I will be there (but do not expect me to lead)

"A certain guy featured on the cover page may well be the best street rider on this forum and I highly doubt he is out running around at 90+ on his way down to Mindoro. I have riiden with him on many occassions and I do not see him crossing the centerline, slamming on the brakes or running trips. While I do not know of any hosted rides by him...I do believe he would put on an awesome ride (nudge, nudge)"

Just to set the record straight, this guy did organize an MSTA ride. It was awesome.